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Who is Lysander?

  • Versalia
  • 04/23/2011 07:25 PM
  • 1163 views
You know the drill.



Name: Lysander (Oops, Lysander has no last name yet)
Devphase Nickname: Tech Buddy
Arcana: Hermit
Native Sync: Soulspring - 3 rounds: Recipients of your support spells regain a percentage of their Max SP. Instant
Initial Persona: Callimachus
Callimachus Sync Role: Tactician - You get sync when allies obtain bonus turns.
Callimachus Sync Skill: Retribution - The recipient takes 1/2 damage from the next attack and they will counter with Hama.
Callimachus Stat Approximations: ST 3, EN 5, MA 5, AG 3, LU 6
Also Learns:
...Zio, Mazio, Dia, Sukumai, Tarukaja...

Ahh, Lysander. You appear at a glance to be a dedicated healbot. But is that the case? Starting with his Sync Role, Lysander is a master Tactician. He is able to exploit a weakness himself by casting Zio ('lightning 1'); however, he benefits even more by a careful tactical choice of OTHER characters' abilities! An important note to interject here is that, with offense not being any of his primary roles, he will never learn Mazio ('lightning-all 1'). Conversely, he begins with Dia, the lowest-level single-target healing spell. When he learns Media, in Callimachus' unique case, it actually overwrites Dia. He'll never have single-target healing again.


Lysander is able to use both single- and multi-target lightning spells now. At higher levels he can use Elec Break to remove the enemy's resistance. Additionally, he will now learn only single-target healing spells; he learns upgrades to these spells earlier than any other character. This encourages a more efficient use of SP and synergizes better with Sukumai, which encourages single-target damage. Gaia Link allows him to get a multi-target benefit out of this if necessary, meaning that intelligent use of your main character should allow you to overcome his lack of Media. I can foresee complaints about effectiveness in boss battles when lacking multi-target healing, however... layering Aisling's Diamai on top of a character affected by Gaia Link and casting Dia(rama)(ahan) on that character should be a very powerful survival strategy in a highly-damaging boss battle. His single-target healing should definitely fall out of efficiency in these situations, because it is powerful, but the system is designed to force you to rely on other party members to make up for your weaknesses.

Ahh, Sukumai... so many uses for just one skill! This ability can stack up to 3 times. It lowers the recipient's evasion, and draws enemy aggro toward them. This can be applied in quite a few different situations, mostly illustrated in the blogs about Rylan and Aisling. For some general examples: Use this to help designate the current tank, use this on characters who have counterattack abilities, use this on characters with buffed evasion! Obviously, they'll be taking more hits, but you're able to better direct the flow of combat.

Compare and contrast to Rakumai, which raises the target's defense but lowers their offense. This can be stacked with Sukumai, or used to beef up a weak character while someone else is busy tanking for the duration of Sukumai. It works nicely for Lysander to use on himself, as well, for you'll notice that he has no physical attack skills. Eventually, Rakumai becomes Tetrasaka, which is commonly known as "thorns" in other incarnations; it reflects a certain amount of damage back upon anyone attacking the recipient. This is not as effective a defense as Rakumai, but it actually boosts your offense as well, by turning damage back upon the enemies!


Rakumai is garbage. It has been replaced with Tarukaja to raise an ally's damage output. Its upgrades have also been replaced with Matarukaja. Tetrasaka and Tetrakarn will appear on a different persona in his pool.

Retribution also synergizes with Rakumai/Tetrasaka and Sukumai. Layering them all together will almost guarantee Retribution will trigger quickly. (Hama is a basic Light magic spell; it attempts to instantly KO the victim.) Retribution is not an Instant sync, and Hama is not completely reliable, but it has a reasonably cheap sync cost and combines with Rakumai for excellent damage absorption. Retribution is also useful even if the enemy is immune to Light. Data Dump should be pretty self-explanatory; Lysander is your early support member, so you'll have to rely on him to get information about enemy resistances if you don't want to guess and check! (It is very cheap, and Instant.)

Lysander's sync affinities are short and sweet. He has one positive and one negative, and works on a neutral level with every other party member.


Retribution is still quite excellent when combined with Sukumai, though Rakumai is now out of the picture. The point Einhander raised that I wanted to address was that Lysander does not help you win a battle any faster. Tarukaja raises attack damage; Retribution is a defensive spell yet it also has a chance to help end the battle faster; he can eventually tear down enemy resistances; and, finally, Soulspring makes you feel less guilty about your party expending SP on attacks.

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Holy crap, those shoulders. Is he wearing pads? Because I'm pretty sure that his right shoulder is much wider than his head, even accounting for perspective.

From this description, I don't see myself using Lysander much, just going off of what we're given. A breakdown of why:
- No ST healing past a certain point is a crippling problem. It forces you into a binary dilemma: One, use your MT heal like a ST heal, which means SP woes. Two, gamble, and potentially lose fights due to bad luck. Both of these are aggravating at best. The description makes me think that leveling him up to learn Media may make some boss fights at that point *harder*, because the majority of their damage is likely to be ST and therefore Media just tends to waste your SP. And Gaia Link exists on the main character, who you'll be using all the time, and it apparently lasts the entire battle. And all of his presented buffs work towards 'make one person target of everything and tough enough to take it,' which a ST healing situation. This is 'out of the party at the earliest opportunity' levels of bad. I cannot possibly hammer this home enough.

(Now, I know there's potential here with Gaia Link; just set it up on some other party member and suddenly Media is ticking twice on your tank. That's still costly as hell, though, and likely to be unnecessary. If it *is* necessary, and there's just no other way to get enough healing with the given tools, then a well-designed game will have someone else who can cast the Media, or you'll be at the point where using someone else isn't even an option.)

- Tactician would be "game-best" levels of great, but it has horrible, horrible synergy with his given syncs. If you're striking weaknesses consistently, then you've already discovered their weaknesses, and Data Dump probably isn't that useful to you. Additionally, if you're hitting weaknesses consistently, you're likely to be ending fights pretty quickly. Neither directly assists with that. (Data Dump does, but see point one.)
- His stats are going to make a difference here. In Personas 3 and 4, for example, Yukari and Yukiko had the best magic stats. They could heal and they could nuke, and while they lacked variety in either role, they had quite a bit of power. Does Lysander have that? If not, that's a problem. Even if he does, ST only? He'll be limited at best here.
- All of the mentioned buffs are trade-offs. Are they situationally useful? Yes, but not enough to redeem other factors that are lacking. And none of the ones presented help to end fights faster, only to make them easier to outlast. They don't add any new dimension to his character, they just deepen the already existing one, and the role in question is one I'm not fond of. And I've played SMT for ages, so buffs are typically in my "oh hell yes" list of wants in an RPG party.

Changeable Persona solve all of the aforementioned issues, but I think I'll be too turned off by him at that point to care much.

Harsh words aside, I'm enjoying reading the updates, and I'm quite looking forward to the game itself. SMT is my thing, as mentioned. Feel free to hit me up if you need a tester!
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
I'll revise the entry and let you know when it's up.
Because I'm pretty sure that his right shoulder is much wider than his head, even accounting for perspective

I'll uh... make it smaller, but that's right out of the VX RTP art. :B

SP woes
Removing Data Dump for an SP mitigator.

because the majority of their damage is likely to be ST
Not necessarily. I'd especially design around the party members I know to be present in the early game, though I'm going to change around the ST/MT arrangement because it IS flawed.


All of the mentioned buffs are trade-offs. Are they situationally useful?
You're right, I went overboard with LOLSTRATEGY when going with Rakumai. There's no reason it can't be Rakukaja or any plain -aja; Sukumai, however, is useful in quite a few situations, and is worth the trade-off. (Sukumaija will now lack any evasion penalty when it upgrades.) Edit: Actually no, Sukumaija will still penalize evasion. Rylan isn't gaining any sync if he isn't taking damage, (at least not with Mnemos equipped) so this actually helps him activate his sync role. I also think there are a LOT of situations for Sukumai to be useful, at least in the early game party - namely, Rylan being attacked for sync and Aisling guaranteeing her Flash of Steel to trigger. These should be happening in every battle, more or less.


edit:
then a well-designed game will have someone else who can cast the Media, or you'll be at the point where using someone else isn't even an option.
Good point, but: don't forget that Aisling has Diamai to inflict Regen. That will work well with Gaia Link, too, despite it being incremental; Gaia Link is now also how Lysander can turn his impressive single-target healing into a party-wide ability without actually using Media. (Media axed)
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
Post updated, with the old version in
quote boxes
and new points in white. Anyone reading, please critique :O
Are rakumai and sukumai the equivalents of rakukaja and sukukaja?
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
author=CyrusBlue
Are rakumai and sukumai the equivalents of rakukaja and sukukaja?


No; Sukumai draws aggro to the recipient, and lowers their evasion. Sukukaja is +30% evasion and accuracy. Rakumai has been removed, but if it's reincluded, it will do something different. Rakukaja is -30% damage received. -mai is sort of like a variant, in the way that "Dia" is "heal" and "Diamai" is "regen."
Changes? In response to little old me? I feel so special. :D

Oh, okay, I was guessing it was RTP from the style. Still. Holy crap, those shoulders. It feels a little weird to say 'why is the head so small?', but perhaps that's a sign of too much anime.

I like this version better. ST healing should definitely be any healer's focus, and I feel like the change in focus also helps raise the importance of Gaia Link. It also encourages vigilance on the player's part. I definitely like Sukumai, that's an interesting spell. (Should have commented on it previously, but the squeaky hinge and the oil.) The change to give him more offensive 'oomph' is good as well. Soulspring will probably ensure he stays in my party.

My comment on Lysander 'not helping end battles any faster' was mostly targeted at boss fights. It depends on the game, but in my experience, non-boss fights are part of the resource management aspect of a game more than anything. They're a task focused around getting through them with minimal expenditure of resources, whether those resources be HP, SP, or inventory so that you can dedicate a larger portion of those resources to the boss.

Tarukaja helps with boss fights, certainly, but Retribution by definition is offensive only against randoms. Bosses will generally be immune to instant death. And against randoms, it's still likely to be largely defensive, since you won't have the dedicated buffs to increase aggro off of the bat. It depends on the Hama chance, really, since Rylan has Sukumai; it just feels doubly dicey, since they have to A) hit the target and B) die to Hama. It's the old instant death dilemma, where an ID spell is generally not used below a threshold and abused above it. We'll all see which side this sits on. Even without it, though, that half damage effect is useful.

(That said, isn't there a Press Turn/One More variant in this game? If so, please make sure that Retribution's Hama doesn't count against you if it's nullified, since that will happen in every boss fight. That would be horrible. Obvious, I know, but there's no mention of it.)

That said, it looks like he's a pretty good offensive caster, so this is less of an issue. It was really a problem only when he had no offensive buff options and his personal offensive ability was in question.
Versalia
must be all that rtp in your diet
1405
Well, as far as Hama is concerned, you mentioned it's double-dicey because they need to hit the Retribution-affected person, but that's where Sukumai comes in :) Additionally, I thought this was a good way of including a chance of instant death without actually making you spam Hama. "Defensive spell with Hama attached just for extra oomph~" I'd like to mention that Hama's base effect rate is now affected by your Luck stat, making Lysander the most effective early user - only one hero has higher Luck than he does. Also, Hama being nullified will not count against you :) Your turns can only be affected during the Ally Phase. A "counter" ability being nulled will give you no penalty, and likewise, Aisling's Flash of Steel won't get you any bonus turns with its critical hits (it does get her sync for her role, though).

Otherwise, I greatly appreciate all of your input! If a character is terrible, I need to know, and I'm happy to change it. I tried to compare him to your examples. Lysander has Ma/Zio and Elec Break, but he lacks Elec Amp, a lot like Yukari :) I also did not include a lot of other stuff from his list, obviously, but Lysander is pretty solid defensively. (He gets Resist and eventually Null Rage, and Trafuri to remove yourself from sticky situations.)
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