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Feedback Appreciated - Item Identification Methods

  • Deltree
  • 06/26/2013 11:14 PM
  • 9758 views
With over 400 items in the game - several of them being unique drops from certain enemies - it has occurred to me that it's a very real possibility that, on your average playthrough, you may find an item, use/eat it to identify it, and then never see another one again for the rest of that run. You can take unidentified items to the safe floor to get them identified, but this is not always convenient and is downright impossible on "hardcore" runs.

So, I would like to implement a method of identifying items "on the fly" while maintaining the idea of risk or some associated cost. I don't want to have "scrolls of identify" like other games use, as that is nonsense from a narrative standpoint and is exactly the sort of easy-out mechanic I'm trying to avoid.

Therefore, I'd like to go with some combination of these ideas:

  • A Favor cost. Makes Favor more valuable and useful, but I'll have to find some way to make sense of it in the world's logic.

  • Cooldown. Maybe I choose to "study" an item from the menu, and 50 turns later, it becomes identified and I can choose another to study.

  • Some chance of failure/item loss. Not a high priority; I'm trying to maintain challenge without frustration.

  • Make identification a spell. Or, more likely, two different elemental versions of the same spell, so anyone could learn at least one version. Might make things really, really easy, though.

  • "Taste" and "touch" options. Thanks to Fool for suggesting this one way back at the beginning. Instead of outright using the item, you experience a diminished effect (for instance, very minor healing or damage) to help make an educated guess about what the item does. There would need to be some way to limit this, though; otherwise, it could be a free and unlimited source of healing. Either a flag (which may be a technical nightmare this late in the production) or a chance of losing the item outright? Or perhaps just flavor text with no actual healing involved?


Those are just some ideas I've been stirring around. I'd love to hear any input you all might have.

Trailer video coming next week, too!

Posts

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edchuy
You the practice of self-promotion
1624
Those all sound like good options, although the 50 turn cooldown sounds a little bit excessive. For the spell option, it would make sense for it cost a certain % of whatever health stat it affects, instead of a fixed value, so that there's less of a chance of making it too easy. Regardless of the option, once an item is identified, if you happen to find it again, it should be already identified (I'm thinking Nethack here).
Adon237
if i had an allowance, i would give it to rmn
1743
I think the identification spell and taste and touch options are the ways to go. If the cooldown is going to be a cooldown of that length, it seems silly to even try to study the item. Favor cost is cool too, but yet that is going to be hard to make it in sync with the game's lore.
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
Yeah, items definitely stay identified after being reveal the first time. The only problem is that in some cases the first time may be the only time!

Fifty turns sounds like a lot, but remember that every step counts as a turn, so you'll probably burn through a few hundred just exploring a single floor. The idea of having a long cooldown is to prevent abusing on-the-fly identifying in the middle of combat, so there is some risk involved in carrying unknown stuff.

Thanks for your quick responses!
Adon237
if i had an allowance, i would give it to rmn
1743
in that case maybe a cooldown isn't such a bad idea, though maybe a touch taste idea isn't that bad either, just to add some risk?
Hm...perhaps the favor could be used in the safe floor to buy groups of items as identified, like all plants identified for a high cost.

Although that's not an on the fly option, hrm...perhaps as a trade off, while trying to identify and item your stealth goes down? Like you can click it to have it studied right away, but your stealth goes down greatly for several turns, or maybe your stealth is down while you study it. Although people can still just run around an empty floor after clearing out the enemies, but I suppose that makes sense from a narrative stand-point.

In terms of justifying favor usage, all favor is from pieces of the dead enemies, correct? Parts of their body that you can sell? Perhaps...experimenting with those pieces is what tells you about the items properties, destroying the item in the process. Or maybe testing the item on a newly dead corpse can tell you about it?

I feel like I should have some better idea or thoughts, but I'm way too tired at the moment. (And still need to catch up on the RP for that matter, urg)

Edit: Something else to consider is just...not having it as an option. I mean the whole point of this is to explore and experiment anyway. Does some of this stay between playthroughs either way?
Gibmaker
I hate RPG Maker because of what it has done to me
9274
Why not like in SS2 where you can set only one item at a time to "study" to unlock it?
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
An alternative to turns passing that I considered and forgot to mention before is to use enemies as a counter instead. So, choose an item to study, fight 5 enemies, and then the item is studied. This means a finite number of identifications could be made per floor.

I really like the idea of using parts of defeated enemies as a justification for Favor, and I just might have to steal it.
I still really like the taste/touch idea. It makes the most realistic and narrative sense. I can see how it would be a technical nightmare, though. Maybe you can only do it once when you pick up an item? Ehh... Other than that, the "study" option sounds good and sensible. Also sounds more technically feasible.
What kind of penalty would you have to tasting and touching? Even if you can only do it once, it sounds like an instant way to identify any item with almost no drawback. That's my main concern.

I don't mind if you steal that idea for justifying favor at all. Speaking of using parts of defeated enemies...it's kind of funny that you are carrying all of the parts for favor you want despite only having 8 slots for inventory. xD
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
Here's my current idea:

For unidentified items, replace the "Convert" menu option with "Study." The initial cost is 50 favor, and it increases by 10 every time it's used. Only one item can be studied at a time. If the item is thrown or lost in this time, the study is lost. At the end of the study period (either turns passed or enemies defeated), the item is identified and the Study command becomes available again.

In addition, a "Taste" and "Touch" menu option will be available for items in your inventory. Using the command will inflict 1/5th of the damage or healing of the real item, but it will not reveal any status effects or properties so the item still remains unknown. Still, it will let the player consciously know which healing items he can use in a pinch. Each instance of an item can only be tasted and touched once, and identified items can only be consumed fully.

Finally, on the inventory screen, I have added the effectiveness rating to the little +/- icons that describe the effects of items.
Gibmaker
I hate RPG Maker because of what it has done to me
9274
Shtay a while and lishen.
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
Already got one of him, in the form of a price gouging lizardman! Can't take him with you, though.
meisam
meisam your not using semicolon properly, and that's a laughing matter.
0
spell is not any different than a identify scroll except scrolls were finite and so there was a choice "on witch item should I use them".

Inventory is very limited so you won't really carry lots of item to identify them you better keep a item that you know it will heal you and there is plenty of them. enemies dose not respawn so even if the item was harmful you remain in 1 place and heal up (no super enemies, no penalty), there is no cursed item so you can equip any equipment to see what is it.

So I am asking you another question, why should I identify anything? when there is nearly no penalty of using them.
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
If you need some emergency healing in the middle of combat, it's potentially a gamble to use an unidentified item that could hurt you instead. Plus, there are plenty of items that will have properties that you can use against enemies, so it's not entirely about healing.

Also, glad to hear from you again so soon!
meisam
meisam your not using semicolon properly, and that's a laughing matter.
0
thanks man, yes change of plans it wasn't as strict as I thought :P.

I am saying. yes some items have properties that will hurt you, but I wasn't struggling to have items, I just used them to free inventory space.
but the item that going to be used against enemies are different, except if they are something that can be relied on, I won't use them as a player, but it's a story for another chapter ;).

I currently don't see any reason for Identify, but I am judging it based on what I saw from demo.

Ok, here's my idea. If you try to identify item, you may loss a stat (depends on item?) for duration of that floor, as item grow in power stat loss will be greater. and/or you won't be able to identify any item on that floor.
Why? If you try a potion that can burn you and you test it, your tongue won't feel anything for sometimes and you have harder time to talk (explaining what's on your MIND). Similarly If you apply it on your BODY your skin will hurt and you can't use it effectively.

Well this is rough, but there should be some kind of greater danger when you identify an item instead of using it.
My two cents:

-cooldown means people will feel obligated to loiter in safe areas until their items are identified.

-a slight chance of failure/loss is better than guaranteed failure/loss, and people will always choose that route as an easy out.

-taste/touch could be interesting, but removes the danger element of new items entirely.

-favor seems the most balanced, and I guess might involve someone sending a runner down from the surface to look over your stuff, and is definitely better than the alternatives. It's still not great, though.

My Suggestion:

Any time you test an unidentified item by cramming it in your mouth, rubbing it on your body, etc, you gain favor. You are acting as a courageous human/metahuman guineapig, contributing to science through your questionable testing procedures.

If you give players an advancement bonus for using strange items on themselves, then losing a rare this way matters much less and is a choice between exp and an item. If paired with the ability to identify via favor expenditure, suddenly there's no easy out, just a choice between safe and costly or adventurous and rewarding.

Which, at the end of the day, is kind of what roguelikes are about.
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
Those are both interesting ideas! (Though the former would be rather unfeasible to implement this late in the process.) It's starting to sound more and more like I should just leave the system alone for now, and wait for feedback from the "full" game where there are far more than the 50 or so demo items.

Thanks again!
I definitely like the idea of it costing more favor each time. It makes it clear that it's still better to experiment but still gives an option to learn the item's properties if you want.

Buuuuut...another thought is that you only find the item once, right? But...how will you know if it's the only time you find the item? By the time you realize you don't find the item again it's kind of too late. Or even know if it's something worth studying?
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