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Getting To The Next Level: Is Patreon a good idea to consider moving forward?
Feldschlacht IV- 05/31/2017 10:06 PM
- 14835 views
Well, Chronology has been going on for a while, but recently as you guys may have followed, I decided to take it to a more polished level by phasing out borrowed/ripped assets in favor for custom ones, carefully curated to meet the aesthetic, spirit, and style of RPG that I want Chronology to be. The most notable examples of this would be the facesets and battle characters you've seen so far, courtesy of JosephSeraph
The eventual goal with this is to turn Chronology of the Last Era into a polished, quality RPG on the RM Ace engine that's good enough where I can hopefully put it on Steam for everyone to enjoy and maybe even turn a profit. As someone who has created this great beast of mine for fun with no real aspirations in game creation, that idea excites me fantastically.
However, it also costs money.
I am able to afford the great talent that Chronology has been blessed to have so far. But as development goes on, things will cost more and more money, because well, some things you gotta pay for if you want quality. I can be creative, cut costs, and even learn a few skills myself to save a few $$$, but there's no real way around spending money on Chronology. I don't mind doing this, but if I were able to find a way to help fund Chronology, that would free up my pockets, accelerate development (considerably), and ultimately result in a better product.
The question is, is this viable? A good idea? Is Patreon something that would work with Chronology and what it wants to be?
The eventual goal with this is to turn Chronology of the Last Era into a polished, quality RPG on the RM Ace engine that's good enough where I can hopefully put it on Steam for everyone to enjoy and maybe even turn a profit. As someone who has created this great beast of mine for fun with no real aspirations in game creation, that idea excites me fantastically.
However, it also costs money.
I am able to afford the great talent that Chronology has been blessed to have so far. But as development goes on, things will cost more and more money, because well, some things you gotta pay for if you want quality. I can be creative, cut costs, and even learn a few skills myself to save a few $$$, but there's no real way around spending money on Chronology. I don't mind doing this, but if I were able to find a way to help fund Chronology, that would free up my pockets, accelerate development (considerably), and ultimately result in a better product.
The question is, is this viable? A good idea? Is Patreon something that would work with Chronology and what it wants to be?
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CloseDo you have anything to show to get people interested beyond some sprites? Are you making a porn game?
I'm not sure it'd work at this point. It's great for porn games but that's about it from what I've seen, unless you already have a LOT to show/try.
I'm not sure it'd work at this point. It's great for porn games but that's about it from what I've seen, unless you already have a LOT to show/try.
author=Craze
Do you have anything to show to get people interested beyond some sprites? Are you making a porn game?
This isn't for now, this is for eventually down the road. When the (new) Chronology solidifies enough to have proper tilesets, new look, etc etc. I could do a few honest mockups for that purpose.
author=Craze
I'm not sure it'd work at this point. It's great for porn games but that's about it from what I've seen, unless you already have a LOT to show/try.
Why not? (research question) Have you seen it work for ONLY porn games, or more particularly, have you specifically seen it not work for non porn games?
I'm receptive to the idea because I see a lot of small fry to outright dumb shit on Patreon get funding, and I'd wager that once the (new) Chronology gets to a certain level of development, I mean, why not? Even a few bucks a month would be mad helpful.
Keep in mind I'm not saying 'I'm gonna run and do this right now', it's more of a 'could this work in the future' type of thing.
Housekeeping
3571
I think that something like Kickstarter would be a better avenue. From what I've seen, Patreon works when you can IV drip content to patrons in order to maintain interest. Unless you're planning on making this episodic, I'd expect Patreon to be a dead end. I could be wrong, though; maybe you've seen some examples of it working for a long-form single release like this.
I've considered Kickstarter, but I've heard so many horror stories about it to give me 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc thoughts.
Keep the thoughts coming guys, feed me info!
Keep the thoughts coming guys, feed me info!
Yeah I'm not sure how well Patreon can work with a single product. I back a few projects there, but they're ever-evolving, like Tiled. That's software that will never really be "finished". But with a game that ends, it seems a lot more difficult.
If it was episodic, I could see it. As Housekeeping said, it's gotta be a drip-feed. But also, Kickstarter almost seems like more hassle than its worth.
If it was episodic, I could see it. As Housekeeping said, it's gotta be a drip-feed. But also, Kickstarter almost seems like more hassle than its worth.
TheNecromancer
3160
It couldn't hurt to set up Patreon and put links up. If someone donates, awesome, if not, no down side(that I'm aware of). It seems easier to me to donate a small amount on Patreon, like 1$ a month, as opposed to making a larger single donation. As the person donating, I'd be more willing to do the small amount. Plus the Patreon page could be for you, not just your game. So you wouldn't need to make as many promises, and it could continue beyond this game. If you happened to cancel, nobody would make demands on what they paid for, right? They paid for you.
Kickstarter comes with expectations from the backers, and the wraith if you don't live up. Although I don't really follow that stuff anymore, I don't really know what it's like these days. Seems like something you do when you're just about ready to release. At least I feel that's how it should be used.
But if it were me in this situation, I would do everything available. Why not? Or simply bow to pressure and make a damn porn game. I have a friend who makes his living on porn sites and that junk, so it's for real haha
Kickstarter comes with expectations from the backers, and the wraith if you don't live up. Although I don't really follow that stuff anymore, I don't really know what it's like these days. Seems like something you do when you're just about ready to release. At least I feel that's how it should be used.
But if it were me in this situation, I would do everything available. Why not? Or simply bow to pressure and make a damn porn game. I have a friend who makes his living on porn sites and that junk, so it's for real haha
author=Link_2112...I digress. What are you asking the money for if your product is ready? Just release it already!
Seems like something you do when you're just about ready to release. At least I feel that's how it should be used.
I believe it would be best for the project if you went the indiegogo / kickstarter route, though. Patreon is about supporting creators, Indiegogo is about supporting creations. If you keep it solid and have a clean demo, and not set up people's expectations by promising an end product that's sufficiently simple with a modest enough budget, i don't think there's a lot of risk in a campaign.
I totally want to do one for myself! I see a lot of promise in the format for beginner creators who already have enough to show.
TheNecromancer
3160
author=JosephSeraphI guess I'm thinking more about the commitment of a kickstarter for a project like this. It is RPG Maker. You can create a lot of a game before needing to spend big money on it.author=Link_2112...I digress. What are you asking the money for if your product is ready? Just release it already!
Seems like something you do when you're just about ready to release. At least I feel that's how it should be used.
I see where you're going with it, and it makes sense for other kinds of endeavors, but I would hate to have that extra pressure while making an RM game. Unless I gave it a fulltime work schedule.
while i totally understand your point, it's a personal matter of not feeling good about this pressure. There's otherwise no point in having a crowdfunding campaign if you already have the money and the public knows this!
Why would you back a game that's finished when you could back something that actually needs funding, and not some lousy guy trying to play safer by abusing crowdfunding platforms?
On the other hand you do need something to show, which is why you should never put a stage 1 project on a crowdfunding platform.
There's a sweet spot there -- complete enough that it's a tangible creation, but incomplete enough that it actually needs that funding.
but i'm... not the best of persons to talk about this i think.
Regardless, if I were to do a crowdfunding campaign of my own game, the money would fund my own work (as in comissioning my own artwork and paying my working hours in the game) , but I'd already have put in a considerable effort in there that it showcases how the finished product will be like -- a very polished 1h demo with a limited selection of enemies and locations (since artwork takes considerably longer than anything in-engine for me to make) is what I would do for instance.
Why would you back a game that's finished when you could back something that actually needs funding, and not some lousy guy trying to play safer by abusing crowdfunding platforms?
On the other hand you do need something to show, which is why you should never put a stage 1 project on a crowdfunding platform.
There's a sweet spot there -- complete enough that it's a tangible creation, but incomplete enough that it actually needs that funding.
but i'm... not the best of persons to talk about this i think.
Regardless, if I were to do a crowdfunding campaign of my own game, the money would fund my own work (as in comissioning my own artwork and paying my working hours in the game) , but I'd already have put in a considerable effort in there that it showcases how the finished product will be like -- a very polished 1h demo with a limited selection of enemies and locations (since artwork takes considerably longer than anything in-engine for me to make) is what I would do for instance.
Darken
3952
You could try going through Steam Greenlight and developing the game through Early Access. Some people have done that and it's a way to "soft launch" the game with a price in mind that matches what the game currently is in devwise. Patreon seems more of an ongoing thing and more for people who create multiple things (ie youtube videos) and more specifically a "person" not always a product. Though Early Access might not always be for the bux and more for the dedicated testing from people who committed to paying money for your game. Just a potential option out there.
Dyhalto
7536
Or you could always just, you know, stop thinking of it in terms of a zero sum business enterprise and just give'er like you would any hobby.
Some people spend tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment just to go fishing on a lake. Ski passes cost $70-100 for a single day's pleasure. Item collections, train set building, assembling models... virtually every hobby out there demands some monetary investment.
We've been spoiled for the last 15-20 years because RPG Making costs nothing. Hell, some of us still pirate the software, even when it's readily available for purchase.
If you want to put more money into RMing and your day job isn't cutting it, then you need to improve your day job, not go around chasing fabled magic beans like every other tool of late.
Some people spend tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment just to go fishing on a lake. Ski passes cost $70-100 for a single day's pleasure. Item collections, train set building, assembling models... virtually every hobby out there demands some monetary investment.
We've been spoiled for the last 15-20 years because RPG Making costs nothing. Hell, some of us still pirate the software, even when it's readily available for purchase.
If you want to put more money into RMing and your day job isn't cutting it, then you need to improve your day job, not go around chasing fabled magic beans like every other tool of late.
Kaempfer
1932
author=Craze
dyhalto you're gonna cut yourself on your edge
author=Dyhalto
not go around chasing fabled magic beans like every other tool of late.
I don't necessarily agree that RMers are not owed fair compensation for putting in lots of work, but this last point is pretty true.
All of these crowdfunded sources of money are entirely a roll of the dice. There are great looking kickstarters that fail and terrible ones that destroy their targets, just like there are failed patreons for good content and successful ones for bad content.
The problem with all of these sources of income is that they are so hopelessly unreliable that you might as well not even consider them until you've already checked off everything on your list before them. They're a great boon if you manage it, but they shouldn't really be part of your business plan.
A good kickstarter should be run around the halfway mark of the game's dev; lots of screenshots, character artwork, sprites, the works. Music helps, too. Think of Kickstarter as pre-selling your game, since that's usually what it turns into. You've been really good at presenting your game so far, but you need lots and lots more before starting a KS. I don't really think Patreon suits this type of project at all. Darken's suggestion about Greenlight is a good one, definitely. If you can get it on Steam well before launch you can build a community and lots of hype before you release, and when you release it you have a built-in audience. Greenlight+Late stage kickstarter are a good combo, too, since a lot of your Greenlight fans will contribute so they can pre-order it.
But yeah, never, ever rely on these income streams.
Darken
3952
author=dyhalto
Some people spend tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment just to go fishing on a lake. Ski passes cost $70-100 for a single day's pleasure. Item collections, train set building, assembling models... virtually every hobby out there demands some monetary investment.
...and there are people who get paid to go fishing and ski via competitions/teaching/coaching/judging what the fuck is your point. you can put a price on equipment, services, or skill and they're interchangeable. different people are going to invest in different ways and may get something in return if they're dedicated enough regardless of whatever.
author=dyhalto
We've been spoiled for the last 15-20 years because RPG Making costs nothing. Hell, some of us still pirate the software, even when it's readily available for purchase.
lmao pencils cost nothing, WHY SHOULD ARTISTS GET PAID.
the digital/creative world is moving on dude, I don't know how your ideas exist in 2017.
Dyhalto
7536
author=Craze
dyhalto you're gonna cut yourself on your edge
There's nothing edgy about telling someone to take a step back, examine reality and consider alternatives. In fact, it's about as un-edgy as one can be.
Kickstarter and Patreon are not reliable sources of income, or even good sources of aid, really. And not to take a dump on Feld, but he has no completed games to show for years of labor (unlike, say, BadLuck and harmonic), and CotLE is, when you boil it down, just another jRPG made in RPG Maker, much disdained in the indie community. Are those the ingredients for a successful kickstarter/patreon campaign?
I totally understand that Money-For-RPGs fever is sweeping through RMN in a big way, but that's no reason for the entire community to heap gobs of empty optimism towards everybody who gets starry eyes. It's perfectly healthy to do a reality check, and the few of us who suggest it shouldn't be getting called out all the time for it.
@Darken
Beat it.
Blind
2262
author=Dyhaltoauthor=CrazeThere's nothing edgy about telling someone to take a step back, examine reality and consider alternatives. In fact, it's about as un-edgy as one can be.
dyhalto you're gonna cut yourself on your edge
Kickstarter and Patreon are not reliable sources of income, or even good sources of aid, really. And not to take a dump on Feld, but he has no completed games to show for years of labor (unlike, say, BadLuck and harmonic), and CotLE is, when you boil it down, just another jRPG made in RPG Maker, much disdained in the indie community. Are those the ingredients for a successful kickstarter/patreon campaign?
I agree with your overall statement (Kickstarter is terrible to rely on for an overall budget), but I don't think it's fair to single out Feld. BadLuck didn't technically have a single completed game, either, until the legal Rm2k3 rolled out. Whether or not an RMN developer can churn out short bursts of 'finished' content or small-size games doesn't always mean they can deliver on a large-scale/monetized project.
IndieGogo is another route you could take, although I think it's significantly less popular than KS. You don't have to meet any particular goal to pocket the funds raised, though.
I would wait until you have quite a bit more content and original assets to show off before making the leap to crowdfunding, especially because most people only have one shot at nailing their campaigns.
eplipswich
2728
I agree with Steam Greenlight + Early Access. That'd be the best approach. Or Indiegogo as the safer alternative to Kickstarter.
Patreon is best utilized if you're churning out multiple products, i.e., best for supporting developers like JosephSeraph said.
If you want an example of a successful crowdfunding campaign of an RPG Maker game, take a look at Last Dream. It may not seem much on the surface, but don't be fooled by it. This game has quite a lot of depth to it, and looking at how detailed the description is, you can see why it's successful. Granted, it's Kickstarter, but it shows an example of how a crowdfunding campaign can be successful.
Patreon is best utilized if you're churning out multiple products, i.e., best for supporting developers like JosephSeraph said.
If you want an example of a successful crowdfunding campaign of an RPG Maker game, take a look at Last Dream. It may not seem much on the surface, but don't be fooled by it. This game has quite a lot of depth to it, and looking at how detailed the description is, you can see why it's successful. Granted, it's Kickstarter, but it shows an example of how a crowdfunding campaign can be successful.
Darken
3952
author=Dyhalto
I totally understand that Money-For-RPGs fever is sweeping through RMN in a big way, but that's no reason for the entire community to heap gobs of empty optimism towards everybody who gets starry eyes. It's perfectly healthy to do a reality check, and the few of us who suggest it shouldn't be getting called out all the time for it.
Why do you think he made the blog post? The entire reply chain is full of pros and cons, drawbacks to everything. Where is this empty optimism?
what the fuck even is "money-for-rpgs"
do you mean... commercial games?????? why don't call them just that?? or do you call your surgery "money-for-procedure" as well? restaurants as "money-for-lunch"?
dude is actually hiring artists to do all the assets in his game. he's responsible for the job of these people, myself included -- surely i'm a freelancer and i shoult theoretically have other sources of income, but the dude is 1. generating jobs 2. creating something responsibly 3. has an artistic vision he wants to develop. Sure maybe his scope could be smaller or bigger or it's risky or whatever but there isn't anything inherently wrong with having commercial aspirations???
KEEP THE SWEEPING CHAIN OF "MONEY-FOR-RPGS" INCOMING!!! LET'S TURN THIS INTO A PROFITABLE MARKET THAT ACTUALLY HAS ENOUGH FUNDS CIRCLING THROUGH IT TO BIRTH BETTER AND MORE POLISHED GAMES ALWAYS! CHEERS
edit: or alternately i could just treat my almost 2 decades of art study (i draw everyday countless hours per day since i was 4 and god knows how much money ive spent on art materials and tech AND now courses to get better) as a hpbby!!1!1!!!!!!!!!! good! I'm gonna get a job as a telemarketing attendant or something (nothing against) and do art on the side for the rest of my life : D
(same thing to every other person aspiring to be able to put more of themselves on their """"""hobbies""""""" such as unity, felds and so many others! lets all be hobbyists forever and keep on making zero budget things while always living in the line of poverty ºwº)
sorry i might've taken this a bit too personally lol hahahahaha cheers everyone
do you mean... commercial games?????? why don't call them just that?? or do you call your surgery "money-for-procedure" as well? restaurants as "money-for-lunch"?
dude is actually hiring artists to do all the assets in his game. he's responsible for the job of these people, myself included -- surely i'm a freelancer and i shoult theoretically have other sources of income, but the dude is 1. generating jobs 2. creating something responsibly 3. has an artistic vision he wants to develop. Sure maybe his scope could be smaller or bigger or it's risky or whatever but there isn't anything inherently wrong with having commercial aspirations???
author=blindmindI disagree in two ends -- the popularity of a campaign is tied to, well, the campaign and coverage and not the platform. So if you launch on kickstarter and no one talks about your game then you're fucked. Also, flexible funding games on indiegogo have overall much less sucess AND i would personally never back one of them. Why? Because most of these are just shitty crashgrabs hoping to get any 10 bucks they can from gullible people who browse the platform. If you got to make a game, there's a minimum amount of money that you need and if you don't raise it mostly you're not gonna make it. (not saying that flexible funding is a no-go, but if you don't clearly state why it's flexible funding and how you're gonna manage to fund the rest of the game.... it's gonna flop!)
IndieGogo is another route you could take, although I think it's significantly less popular than KS. You don't have to meet any particular goal to pocket the funds raised, though.
KEEP THE SWEEPING CHAIN OF "MONEY-FOR-RPGS" INCOMING!!! LET'S TURN THIS INTO A PROFITABLE MARKET THAT ACTUALLY HAS ENOUGH FUNDS CIRCLING THROUGH IT TO BIRTH BETTER AND MORE POLISHED GAMES ALWAYS! CHEERS
edit: or alternately i could just treat my almost 2 decades of art study (i draw everyday countless hours per day since i was 4 and god knows how much money ive spent on art materials and tech AND now courses to get better) as a hpbby!!1!1!!!!!!!!!! good! I'm gonna get a job as a telemarketing attendant or something (nothing against) and do art on the side for the rest of my life : D
(same thing to every other person aspiring to be able to put more of themselves on their """"""hobbies""""""" such as unity, felds and so many others! lets all be hobbyists forever and keep on making zero budget things while always living in the line of poverty ºwº)
sorry i might've taken this a bit too personally lol hahahahaha cheers everyone
First and foremost, I'd like to thank everyone a bunch for posting and giving your time to this topic. It really means a lot!
I want to make it clear to everyone though;
1. This is a hypothetical. I understand that before I'd do something like this, I'd need more of a game to show. That will happen regardless (see point 2), and I'm not saying "HEY GUYS I'M DOING THIS RIGHT NOW". So while it is helpful advice to tell me to pump the brakes, keep in mind I haven't even started the car yet. (I mean that analogy towards the whole funding thing, not the project itself. Chronology is well on the highway).
2. Chronology as a game will happen regardless of external funding. If it's good, maybe I'll even make some of it back. So don't look at it like 'if I can't get funding the game might not get finished.'. Not gonna happen; the only thing that's really left is the graphical overhaul, and finishing a game that's well underway.
Now to respond to everyone's sentiments, if not their posts;
WIP
Yeah, I see what you mean. Patreon might only work if I could release consistent 'pre' content, but Chronology isn't big enough for that.
Link
The issue with just 'throw it up' is that I don't want to attach my name, or my projects name on anything and everything just to make a buck. I take reputation pretty seriously and I'd only want Chronology's name attached to a minimum of things to keep its name good and fresh without dilution, either.
I totally get that the hustle is real, for most things I totally feel you, but you also have to think about time, effort, and brand when you apply it to certain things, like a product.
JosephSeraph
You da homie. You already know how I feel, so! I'm sure we might chat about it more later. For now, just keep rockin'!
Darken
I forgot about Steam Early Access! I'll look into that, namely once there's more game to present, of course. This subject might come up again in the future.
Kaem
Good advice, and noted. I might consider Kickstarter in the future, but all of those horror stories make me recoil.
Dyhalto
I have to agree with everyone else; the whole 'money for RPGs' phrase is mad weird. Isn't it a just...a product? There's nothing weird inherently about selling a game for money. Think about what you're saying here.
As far as the other stuff, I'm going to be honest; I think the angle of 'just another jrpg made with rpg maker' is a bit disingenuous; I really don't see a lot of them on crowdfunding, and the ones that I do, they're default asset, nothing standout about them games. Projects like Ara Fell are successful because they're notable, rare, and good. That's the quality I'm shooting for.
Everyone else: kudos, and I read your stuff too!
I want to make it clear to everyone though;
1. This is a hypothetical. I understand that before I'd do something like this, I'd need more of a game to show. That will happen regardless (see point 2), and I'm not saying "HEY GUYS I'M DOING THIS RIGHT NOW". So while it is helpful advice to tell me to pump the brakes, keep in mind I haven't even started the car yet. (I mean that analogy towards the whole funding thing, not the project itself. Chronology is well on the highway).
2. Chronology as a game will happen regardless of external funding. If it's good, maybe I'll even make some of it back. So don't look at it like 'if I can't get funding the game might not get finished.'. Not gonna happen; the only thing that's really left is the graphical overhaul, and finishing a game that's well underway.
Now to respond to everyone's sentiments, if not their posts;
WIP
Yeah, I see what you mean. Patreon might only work if I could release consistent 'pre' content, but Chronology isn't big enough for that.
Link
The issue with just 'throw it up' is that I don't want to attach my name, or my projects name on anything and everything just to make a buck. I take reputation pretty seriously and I'd only want Chronology's name attached to a minimum of things to keep its name good and fresh without dilution, either.
I totally get that the hustle is real, for most things I totally feel you, but you also have to think about time, effort, and brand when you apply it to certain things, like a product.
JosephSeraph
You da homie. You already know how I feel, so! I'm sure we might chat about it more later. For now, just keep rockin'!
Darken
I forgot about Steam Early Access! I'll look into that, namely once there's more game to present, of course. This subject might come up again in the future.
Kaem
Good advice, and noted. I might consider Kickstarter in the future, but all of those horror stories make me recoil.
Dyhalto
I have to agree with everyone else; the whole 'money for RPGs' phrase is mad weird. Isn't it a just...a product? There's nothing weird inherently about selling a game for money. Think about what you're saying here.
As far as the other stuff, I'm going to be honest; I think the angle of 'just another jrpg made with rpg maker' is a bit disingenuous; I really don't see a lot of them on crowdfunding, and the ones that I do, they're default asset, nothing standout about them games. Projects like Ara Fell are successful because they're notable, rare, and good. That's the quality I'm shooting for.
Everyone else: kudos, and I read your stuff too!
