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New Make a Map page, Updates, and Issues

  • unity
  • 04/26/2014 04:29 PM
  • 3069 views
The Update

I had misinterpreted how Craze's code worked in battle and the skills and weapons in Wyrm Warriors were unbalanced as a result. LockeZ stepped in, and not only pointed out my misconception but also balanced all the weapons and skills for me. A huge thanks to him, once again! ^_^

The game has been rebalanced once again and reuploaded. You may not notice a huge difference as the game plays very much the same. Some errors in skill descriptions have been fixed as well.

New Make a Map page

I'd also like to introduce the new Make a Map page! Gourd_Clae suggested we have a central page for claiming and making maps, and it's now up and running, with descriptions of uncompleted maps all there, so we don't have to hunt through forum topics for them ^^;;

You'll notice asterisks next to Osis, Mount Arazia, and The Quartz Quarry. Those will be in the next region, so we need them done as soon as possible. Any help on those would be greatly appreciated ^_^

The Issue

There's also an issue that I'd like feedback on. LockeZ pointed out that, because enemies in Curse Dungeons do not respawn, you can just backtrack at any time with nothing in your way. This means, instead of using items, you can backtrack back to the inn and restore your HP and SP with no penalty aside from the paltry MS cost. This undermines the "rewarding the player for good item management" part of the game.

LockeZ suggested making the Inn cost a Craze Medallion (and giving the player three to start with) or making healing points that only work once, to mitigate this problem (I'm condensing his suggestions here, I hope you don't mind, LockeZ ^^;;). I'm not completely sold on either of these solutions (as if you run out of medallions or heal spots then you'll be in real trouble), but I'm not sure how to fix the problem either.

I'd really like to get a discussion going about what should be done, as this is potentially a huge deal. Please let me know if you have ideas, suggestions, questions, etc.

Posts

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You could just lock the door. Frankly, you don't get any Medallions until after you beat the dungeon so it's ridiculous to expect you to pay with something you don't have. XD

Maybe lock the door, disable saving inside except just before the boss. Or boost the cost of the inn?

I'm for locking you in the dungeon, letting you know at the start that there's no way out until the end and maybe giving an item that acts like a providence (Lufia II) so that if it's really needed they can use that.

I'm thinking a one-off teleport out item that doesn't count as a point piece (thus is taken away after finishing the dungeon) found in a chest after the door locks them in. This way they can go in, but if they do need to beat a hasty retreat they can. They can then stock up on weapons and the like, knowing what is waiting for them, grab any characters they forgot and heal up at the inn - but only the one time. (Just remember to warn them that they'll only ever get one of those items per dungeon.)

They then know what going back in will mean - do it now or not at all.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6280
I agree with Liberty's solution except for the "disable saving" part, because that could be potentially frustrating. Other than that, the concept of having one, and only one chance to retreat sounds challenging but fair to me.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You know what would be even more frustrating than disabling saving in the dungeon? Someone saving over their main save in the dungeon. So, it would be nice to at least have some kind of warning the first time you enter the first dungeon - "Leaving this dungeon once you enter it will be extremely difficult. It is highly recommended to create a second save file when trapped in Chaos Orb dungeons."

But yeah, both of my suggestions were designed with the idea that, yes, it's possible to screw up. I don't think you need to completely remove the player's ability to screw up. You just need to make it ruin their day, and severely limit the number of times they can do it.

Liberty's suggestion of a one-use Go-Home Frog item is a great idea, and a cleaner solution than my idea of making the inn cost craze medallions. Thanks to the cool item system you made, you could make the teleport item be one of the items that's regenerated after each dungeon, and have it be worth IP. Then the player will always start the dungeon with it, and will be hesitant to use it unless it's needed. Giving the player three or four of them would even be fine if they're worth a lot of IP. But if the player has more than one, I would also recommend possibly making the monsters respawn if you use one?
Thanks for the considering my suggestion, Unity~

I think Libby and LockeZ have the right idea for handling the inn situation.
I dunno, LockeZ. For an item you don't keep to use at a later date, I think having IP is too much, especially as it doesn't get refilled with the rest of your items. Just having it be a one-off is probably as much restriction as it needs. The fact you can't keep it for the next dungeon (thus giving you two chances) and that is probably enough drawback it needs all told.
It'll also make it stick out in the memory which will help the player remember it when the chips are down. Besides, you'll have to spend the time it takes getting back through the dungeon (and any reset puzzles it might have) especially if it's a longer one, which is also a draw-back to use. "Should I hope on a healing point since I'm already so far in or use my item but know that it'll take a while to get back to where I am again?"

Yeah, so I'm for not giving it an IP cost - it has enough drawbacks to its use already, it doesn't need to affect your 'rating'.

I totally agree about the saving, though. Let them save~
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I was suggesting making it get refilled, though. If you're going to give the player one in every dungeon, just refill it like everything else.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=Gourd_Clae
Thanks for the considering my suggestion, Unity~

I think Libby and LockeZ have the right idea for handling the inn situation.

Thanks! We really needed a central place for all the map work, so your suggestion was perfect.

As for the inn situation, yes, I think Liberty's idea of locking the dungeon is exactly what we need. Still not sure if I should disable saving or just do the warning thing with an RMN Knight and hope people don't force themselves into a dead-end situation where they have no choice but to start the game over.

If I look from the perspective of purely what I would want, as a player, I'd want the warning but still the ability to save. I might still screw up with the saving, but it'd be my own fault if the game gave me ample warning. This is purely a personal preference, though, and I'd like to hear what others think.

Now here comes the tricky part for me. The item that teleports you out of a Cursed Dungeon. I agree that we definitely need one. And Liberty and LockeZ have both proposed ideas for how the orbs should work. Just so I understand our options, I'll organize them into Item A (Liberty's suggestion) and Item B (LockeZ's suggestion). Lemme know if I get any of these points on them wrong.

Item A
  • Single use item that teleports the player out of a Curse Dungeon.
  • Is *not* tied to the IP system. Therefore, is not refilled by the Craze Crystal, but also is not lost at the end of a Curse Dungeon when everything else is converted to IP.
  • Therefore, the reward for not spending this item is being able to keep it and give yourself an additional escape option later in the game.

Item B
  • Single use item that teleports the player out of a Curse Dungeon.
  • Is built in to our IP item system. You start the game with one (or get one before the first dungeon, tied with an explanation of how it works). Just like all other consumable items, it is converted at the end of the Cursed Dungeon and then refilled; so you will always have one escape attempt available between Cursed Dungeons.
  • Therefore, the reward for not spending this item is IP. Since using one pretty much guarantees you'll be hightailing it back to an Inn, it's pretty much worth a full party-restore, so I'd put it's IP to at least the amount of a Craze Medallion, if not two.

Now, I've been mulling over which is preferable for the better part of the weekend and today. I think they both have a lot of merit. It might be novel to have one item that doesn't play along with the IP rules and allows you to save them up. This has the downside that smart players can try to stockpile them. But this can be countered by the growing difficulty of the dungeons where having more might save your bacon.

On the other hand, we already have a built-in system for items and it seems logical to just put the item into that. That would mean you always only have one chance of escape, but you'd know that and have to plan around it.

I'm not sure which is best. Any further discussion on this is very welcome!

tl;dr: unity is indecisive and thinks way too much about these things ^^;;
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6280
author=unity
If I look from the perspective of purely what I would want, as a player, I'd want the warning but still the ability to save. I might still screw up with the saving, but it'd be my own fault if the game gave me ample warning.

Exactly this. I would even recommend making a choice window pop up every time a player tries to enter a Curse Dungeon. (Something like "You are about to enter a dungeon that was cursed by the Wyrm Wizard. This entrance will seal itself as soon as you pass through, so you won't be able to escape any more except by using an escape item. Are you sure you are ready to continue?")
But if the player still decides to enter, waste all escape items and not use more than one save file, that's indeed their own fault then. Nobody expects you to hand-hold the player like that, and most people will appreciate a decent challenge in their games.

About the way the escape item should work: I'd definitely prefer the concept of "Item A". It would still reward not needlessly wasting the escape item since you can stack and save them for more difficult dungeons, but using it would not feel like as big a deal as with concept B. (Maybe it's just because I'm an item hoarding type of player and would definitely try to collect as many Craze Medaillons as physically possible, thus avoiding using the escape item, too.)

author=unity
It might be novel to have one item that doesn't play along with the IP rules and allows you to save them up. This has the downside that smart players can try to stockpile them. But this can be countered by the growing difficulty of the dungeons where having more might save your bacon.

Again, exactly this.

Also, with concept A, you can decide whether to give one escape item to the player the moment he enters the dungeon, or to hide it (or multiple, in case of especially difficult dungeons) somewhere in the dungeon itself, making exploration even more rewarding.

Just my two cents, anyway.

Item A

Single use item that teleports the player out of a Curse Dungeon.

Is *not* tied to the IP system. Therefore, is not refilled by the Craze Crystal, but also is not lost at the end of a Curse Dungeon when everything else is converted to IP.

Therefore, the reward for not spending this item is being able to keep it and give yourself an additional escape option later in the game.

Actually, I was saying that while it's not tied to IP, you don't get to keep it. It's removed at the end of the dungeon, but there's no penalty for its use. In other words, you only keep it in the dungeon.
It doesn't get refilled at the end, but removed if it's in your possession, and you only find one in each dungeon (so you have to actually look through part of the dungeon before you can leave - again, think Providence of Lufia II*). This way there's only one in use each time but it's not tied to IP because the penalty for using it is loss of your second chance as well as having to trudge your way back through the dungeon when you get back (even without enemies, that's time wasted).


And, yeah, we both agreed with saving allowed with a warning about preparing a separate slot in advance (just in case~). XD


_______________
* In Lufia II there was a 100 floor randomly generated cave where you could dive in and try to get to the last level. There were only three ways to leave this dungeon:-
- Die, thus losing all the treasure you'd found within.
- Defeat the last floor, thus winning.
- Use a Providence. An item that would teleport you out. The Providence was found randomly around levels 15-30 and there was only ever one. Drop it or feed it to a pet and that was it - you'd only have the top two options to keep your treasure. (if you left the cave via option 2, the Providence would be removed from your inventory. it was only for use in-dungeon)
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=Liberty
Actually, I was saying that while it's not tied to IP, you don't get to keep it. It's removed at the end of the dungeon, but there's no penalty for its use. In other words, you only keep it in the dungeon.
It doesn't get refilled at the end, but removed if it's in your possession, and you only find one in each dungeon (so you have to actually look through part of the dungeon before you can leave - again, think Providence of Lufia II*). This way there's only one in use each time but it's not tied to IP because the penalty for using it is loss of your second chance as well as having to trudge your way back through the dungeon when you get back (even without enemies, that's time wasted).


And, yeah, we both agreed with saving allowed with a warning about preparing a separate slot in advance (just in case~). XD


_______________
* In Lufia II there was a 100 floor randomly generated cave where you could dive in and try to get to the last level. There were only three ways to leave this dungeon:-
- Die, thus losing all the treasure you'd found within.
- Defeat the last floor, thus winning.
- Use a Providence. An item that would teleport you out. The Providence was found randomly around levels 15-30 and there was only ever one. Drop it or feed it to a pet and that was it - you'd only have the top two options to keep your treasure. (if you left the cave via option 2, the Providence would be removed from your inventory. it was only for use in-dungeon)


Oooh, I see! Sorry, I misunderstood.

I like that. It gives you something extra to look for, but you can't stockpile them. The fact that you don't get any bonus for not using it, in a game like this that's trying to be big on risk/reward, seems a little odd to me, though. Instead of making it worth IP when it's removed, maybe it turns into a bit of MS when it's removed, to at least give you something for finding it and not using it?
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