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Sanity Cost: 999 SP

  • Red_Nova
  • 09/01/2016 12:07 AM
  • 5483 views
I was kinda bummed I couldn't find a team for the McBacon Jam. So to make up for my lack of participation, I decided to go ham on PotF and spend as much time as I would if I were on a jam. The end result is that a lot of ground was covered in both planned and unplanned areas. There's too much to cover in one blog, so I'll just focus on the most important one:

On a whim, I decided to jack up the levels of all the party members to about 30, then 60 (the planned levels by the end of the game) and did some random testing against stronger enemies. After overhauling all the stats for this last release, I wondered how that would affect mid to late game. Well, it's a good thing I did, because I uncovered a rather serious flaw in the SP mechanics: Once you get enough of it, you can fire off strong abilities like it's nobody's business, and the window of vulnerability left from low SP is negligible at best.

The intent of Stamina's inclusion into defense was to discourage spamming your strongest moves for fear of leaving yourself vulnerable to further damage. With basic attacks costing a mere 1 SP and most early game Drives and Burst Drives costing single digit SP costs, the game quickly became unbalanced as your levels rose higher and character's SP touched the 20s and even 30s. Something had to change.

So here is that change: All SP costs will now cost a small hard base plus a % of a character's Max SP. Let's look at Aeyr around the time he reaches the end of his prologue:



As you can see, these two Drives cost a little more than they do in the current demo. Sonic Fist costs 2 + 30% of Aeyr's max SP,and Heavenfall costs 3 + 35% of max SP. Stronger skills, such as magic, will take about 40% -50% plus one or two extra points of SP. Basic attacks will cost a straight 10% or 15% max SP with no added flat rates.

Since I wanted to shy away from more powerful versions of previous skills for the sake of variety, this change did a great job of keeping your early game skills useful while still forcing you to think about how vulnerable you'll leave allies after attacking. Later, when the damage output of enemies gets higher and higher, the lost SP will gain more and more meaning.

Well, that's all well and good, except for the fact that that one small change completely upsets the balance of the game. Foes were running out of SP way too often and started spending every other turn Focusing. If they weren't doing that, they would demolish allies because of how vulnerable they were thanks to all the SP spent attacking. When players are working with rather small numbers at the beginning of the game, single digit changes to SP here and there meant a rather large difference.

Essentially, this is what happened to the game after making this change and my reaction to it:



But hey, that's fine! In fact, this actually led to some much needed balance tweaks to make battles more fair. These tweaks have been a long time coming and, after running through the whole thing, make the game feel a lot more dynamic; Opportunities arise after foes use strong attacks that drain a large portion of their stamina, and tougher enemies no longer required multiple turns to chip away at their SP before inflicting damage. There have been quite a few compensations, but here are the two big ones:

- Every party member's initial HP and SP have been boosted, and they will gain more of each upon level up. Originally, characters used to gain on average 1 SP every level or two, but now they should gain at least 1 SP every level up, maybe sometimes even 2.

- Enemies will now regenerate 20% of their total SP each turn just like allies do. It always bothered me that foes didn't follow the same rules as allies, and now, with this change, the action has more of a flow to it as both sides can continue to launch offensive and defensive moves for a longer period of time before stopping to focus, maintaining a more consistent pace to battles.

So after playing through the game with these and many other adjustments, I realized that the game is now quite a bit easier. Thanks to the boost in HP and SP, there's more room for error while you're learning the mechanics. And you know something? I'm okay with that. I realized while watching someone play PotF in front of me that there just wasn't enough time spent with new players to get them adjusted to the mechanics before ramping up the difficulty. I thought I did a decent job with the beginning, but that turned out to be false.

There has been plenty of other changes as well, both inside and outside the battle system itself. I'm thinking about updating the demo to reflect these new changes once I playtest the entire prologue again to make sure everything works just right. However, I'm rather hesitant to do this because I'm also thinking about overhauling the database to reorganize items on the list. I misjudged the amount of spaces for equipment and skills I needed, and the only way to get it back on track is to revamp the database entirely. If I do that, however, your save files will no longer be transferable between versions. Yet at the same time, I don't want this page to go without a download for long.

Anyway, that's the big game-changer. Thanks so much for reading!

Posts

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NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6299
My first reaction to reading this was asking myself if it's really such a good idea to make the player feel like you're punishing them for leveling up due to the increased skill costs. I realise now that with the added absolute SP costs, the relative costs of skill compared to max SP are still going to become lower with every level, so it makes more sense now. I probably would just have drastically reduced the max SP gain per level in reaction to this balancing problem. But it seems likely that would make the damage reduction effectively irrelevant later on, unless all other stats (of allies and enemies) were kept very low throughout the whole game as well. As the one who knows the numbers best, you probably made the correct decision. Still, I wonder how you are going to communicate the new workings of the battle system in-game.

I hope you didn't overexert yourself with this massive balancing overhaul. At least this blog ended with you still alive, apparently, so that's something. Thanks for keeping your players up to date on the changes!

P.S.: If only the jam had taken place during any other month, I would absolutely have liked to join a team with you. Maybe in the near future...?
Marrend
Guardian of the Description Thread
21781
I'm kinda thinking it might behoove you to have other people playtest these changes to see what the response is from them. Or, at least, generally, take a break as a preventative measure against dying again.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=NeverSilent
My first reaction to reading this was asking myself if it's really such a good idea to make the player feel like you're punishing them for leveling up due to the increased skill costs. I realise now that with the added absolute SP costs, the relative costs of skill compared to max SP are still going to become lower with every level, so it makes more sense now. I probably would just have drastically reduced the max SP gain per level in reaction to this balancing problem. But it seems likely that would make the damage reduction effectively irrelevant later on, unless all other stats (of allies and enemies) were kept very low throughout the whole game as well. As the one who knows the numbers best, you probably made the correct decision. Still, I wonder how you are going to communicate the new workings of the battle system in-game.

I hope you didn't overexert yourself with this massive balancing overhaul. At least this blog ended with you still alive, apparently, so that's something. Thanks for keeping your players up to date on the changes!


I'm still working on communication. As of right now, here's what I've got:


Note the tag at the end of Sonic Fist's description. That'll tell you the % of SP the Drive will take. However, this is confusing for new players, because it doesn't take into account the hard cost of SP, since 30% of 11 is obviously not 5. Adding said hard cost to the tag, though, would be too technical for players to care about, especially in the beginning of the game, so I'm trying to come up with a good alternative.


author=Marrend
I'm kinda thinking it might behoove you to have other people playtest these changes to see what the response is from them. Or, at least, generally, take a break as a preventative measure against dying again.


Yeah, that's a good point. I'll do that once I'm happy with these adjustments.

Thanks for the concerns about my life, everyone! Don't worry, I only die when releasing stuff. As long as I don't release anything, I'll stay alive to work on the next release... wait...
This was rather entertaining to read. I did wonder how you intended to scale this system. Apparently, you didn't consider that aspect, but now you do.

Anyway, this gave me an idea. You mentioned not wanting to create more powerful versions of previous skills and I came to think of the possibility to create more advanced versions of the same skill instead. For example, Amalie can taunt the enemies. She could later get a skill that say both gives her taunt status and stuns/weakens one chosen enemy for one turn. The stun/weakening would compliment her taunt since she can then disable whatever enemy she the least want to take a hit from. The same could be done with other skills, you give them a secondary effect that compliments the main purpose of the skill. The advantage would be that this makes the character seem more skilled as the game progresses instead of just hitting harder.

This idea may not fit your game and maybe also clashes with your intentions, but this seems like a fun idea to try myself.
Red Nova
... I'm also thinking about overhauling the database to reorganize items on the list. I misjudged the amount of spaces for equipment and skills I needed, and the only way to get it back on track is to revamp the database entirely. If I do that, however, your save files will no longer be transferable between versions. Yet at the same time, I don't want this page to go without a download for long.


Is this for a player-facing perspective or a dev one? If it's just player it's easy to contort the database to sort as you want it via adding a new property to items and how the sort works via a bit of script work. Think of it as having Short Sword/Long Sword/Beat Sword sorted by their IDs of 3, 3.5, and 4. The real number domain is bi~ig!

Changing it from the dev perspective though might be a bit tricker, I've never tried it before nor really looked into it if it's possible in a reasonable amount of time.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Crystalgate
This was rather entertaining to read. I did wonder how you intended to scale this system. Apparently, you didn't consider that aspect, but now you do.

Anyway, this gave me an idea. You mentioned not wanting to create more powerful versions of previous skills and I came to think of the possibility to create more advanced versions of the same skill instead. For example, Amalie can taunt the enemies. She could later get a skill that say both gives her taunt status and stuns/weakens one chosen enemy for one turn. The stun/weakening would compliment her taunt since she can then disable whatever enemy she the least want to take a hit from. The same could be done with other skills, you give them a secondary effect that compliments the main purpose of the skill. The advantage would be that this makes the character seem more skilled as the game progresses instead of just hitting harder.

This idea may not fit your game and maybe also clashes with your intentions, but this seems like a fun idea to try myself.


Ooh, I really like that idea for the reason you stated: it makes the characters feel like they've gotten better at fighting rather than just getting a boost to raw strength. I'll see about doing just that!

author=GreatRedSpirit
Red Nova
... I'm also thinking about overhauling the database to reorganize items on the list. I misjudged the amount of spaces for equipment and skills I needed, and the only way to get it back on track is to revamp the database entirely. If I do that, however, your save files will no longer be transferable between versions. Yet at the same time, I don't want this page to go without a download for long.
Is this for a player-facing perspective or a dev one? If it's just player it's easy to contort the database to sort as you want it via adding a new property to items and how the sort works via a bit of script work. Think of it as having Short Sword/Long Sword/Beat Sword sorted by their IDs of 3, 3.5, and 4. The real number domain is bi~ig!

Changing it from the dev perspective though might be a bit tricker, I've never tried it before nor really looked into it if it's possible in a reasonable amount of time.


Yeah, on the dev side. I had allocated what I thought was enough space between each character's unique abilities and equipment, but I turned out to be wrong. Now, after fixing and reworking certain mechanics, equipment and skills for each character are in scattered places of the database, and the need to reorganize in order to be able to properly keep track of all the stuff that I'm working with.

The actual process SHOULD be easy to do thanks to my recent discovery of the Multi-Copy function. However, things always take longer than you think, so I really have no way of telling until I actually do it.
Ah, that's a shame. The way RPG Maker links objects in the database was always one of those annoying relics I constantly wish they'd get rid of and replace with a softer reference so that busywork like that wasn't necessary. Good luck!
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I know right?? Switching from hard locations to references would be enough to sell an entire engine for me, to be honest.

By the way, for anyone concerned, I figured out how to accurately display the formula for each ability in the description for players to see where the costs are coming from:



The icon is just a placeholder, but hopefully that'll be enough to convey the reasoning behind the costs.
There's no way to keep saves forward compatible, is there?
Marrend
Guardian of the Description Thread
21781
author=Malandy
There's no way to keep saves forward compatible, is there?


Seems particularly unlikely.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Marrend
author=Malandy
There's no way to keep saves forward compatible, is there?
Seems particularly unlikely.


That's right. Once the database is rearranged, save files will no longer be compatible.
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