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Wrapping up Chapter 1 and Talking about Communication!
Red_Nova- 02/03/2017 06:36 PM
- 4247 views
I put a poll on Twitter asking what people would like to see in the next blog: a general progress report, a more in depth explanation of Mia's gameplay differences, or an introduction to the next party member. Results showed to be just as indecisive as me by being split pretty evenly between the first and third choices with just one vote to push it over to the first. Sorry for anyone who wanted to know about a new ally! I might talk about it next month if you want.
As for THIS month...
The beta for Mia 1 is done. This includes item placements, mapping, cutscenes, and battles. All that's needed now are skits and a lengthy playtesting session to iron out as much as possible, and chapter 1 will be pretty much wrapped up! Thanks to my enjoyment of writing skits, I have about fifteen of them in my OneNote doc, so I'm gonna spend some time choosing which ones will make the final cut.
Sounds like we'll need some help! IF only there was someone out there that could, I don't know, come with us or something?
Equipment has also been given a new tweak: Weapons and armor now change a character's parameters by a set amount in addition to the % increase just like SP costs for Drives. In the early game, with low numbers, a % change alone wouldn't make too much of a difference. Now, even a light piece of armor will have more impact on a character than they did before.
This is how the information looks now.
Making all these adjustments brings out a new problem with conveyance: How much info is too much? I've talked to a few people both in and out of RMN, but I want to get your opinion on this matter: What do you think of the parameter changes tags? Most people I've talked to actually confessed to not look at the tags at all. As such, I'm thinking about straight up getting rid of them. Of course, other important details like armor size or critical hit chance will remain, but if you want to look at parameter changes, you could just look at what they do to a character by highlighting them instead of parsing through a bunch of tags.
This logic includes the SP cost tag for Drives as well. It's only thing to give players as much information as possible, but if it's just confusing and/or clutters up a screen, then perhaps it isn't needed? Any input from you would be appreciated!
Is this enough information for you? Or would you like the tags to remain?
Finally, I've been trying my hand at simple animations. I wanted to break away from as much of the RTP as I can, and animations seem like the next logical step forward. I'm certainly no animator; I don't have anything I'm ready to officially show off here yet (though you might catch some WIPs on a thread or two around RMN), but just know that it's on the table. I want the animations to have a different look and feel than the RTP, so I'm exploring different animations styles. Once I settle on something I'm happy with, you'll be the first to know!
And yes, for anyone wondering, I DO only sleep for about 2 hours every night!
So yeah, that's pretty much what I've been up to this past month. Keep an eye on Twitter, as I might keep posting polls on what you want to see for the next blog! Vote there or here. I'm fine with whatever!
Thanks for reading!
As for THIS month...
The beta for Mia 1 is done. This includes item placements, mapping, cutscenes, and battles. All that's needed now are skits and a lengthy playtesting session to iron out as much as possible, and chapter 1 will be pretty much wrapped up! Thanks to my enjoyment of writing skits, I have about fifteen of them in my OneNote doc, so I'm gonna spend some time choosing which ones will make the final cut.
Sounds like we'll need some help! IF only there was someone out there that could, I don't know, come with us or something?
Equipment has also been given a new tweak: Weapons and armor now change a character's parameters by a set amount in addition to the % increase just like SP costs for Drives. In the early game, with low numbers, a % change alone wouldn't make too much of a difference. Now, even a light piece of armor will have more impact on a character than they did before.
This is how the information looks now.
Making all these adjustments brings out a new problem with conveyance: How much info is too much? I've talked to a few people both in and out of RMN, but I want to get your opinion on this matter: What do you think of the parameter changes tags? Most people I've talked to actually confessed to not look at the tags at all. As such, I'm thinking about straight up getting rid of them. Of course, other important details like armor size or critical hit chance will remain, but if you want to look at parameter changes, you could just look at what they do to a character by highlighting them instead of parsing through a bunch of tags.
This logic includes the SP cost tag for Drives as well. It's only thing to give players as much information as possible, but if it's just confusing and/or clutters up a screen, then perhaps it isn't needed? Any input from you would be appreciated!
Is this enough information for you? Or would you like the tags to remain?
Finally, I've been trying my hand at simple animations. I wanted to break away from as much of the RTP as I can, and animations seem like the next logical step forward. I'm certainly no animator; I don't have anything I'm ready to officially show off here yet (though you might catch some WIPs on a thread or two around RMN), but just know that it's on the table. I want the animations to have a different look and feel than the RTP, so I'm exploring different animations styles. Once I settle on something I'm happy with, you'll be the first to know!
And yes, for anyone wondering, I DO only sleep for about 2 hours every night!
So yeah, that's pretty much what I've been up to this past month. Keep an eye on Twitter, as I might keep posting polls on what you want to see for the next blog! Vote there or here. I'm fine with whatever!
Thanks for reading!
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CloseInteresting. I actually do look at the parameter tags for everything, but I admit that the actual change in stats in the top right of the screen is what usually gets much more of my attention. Still, I'd say that unless you really need that text space for other things, it seems better to keep the information there. Especially with the new stat change system, players should be able to immediately discern and remember that the percentage-based stat changes might make certain early-game items more useful again later in the game, too.
Other than that, the changes you made sound very good, and I'm already excited to see more of your animations. Good work!
Other than that, the changes you made sound very good, and I'm already excited to see more of your animations. Good work!
Looking at the first screenshot, I feel it's too much and I don't quite know what those percentages are even supposed to mean.
I mean, what DOES that mean? Is it its own spell you can use with it that works off those percentages or does it affect your ingame performance? Is that explained somewhere in the game?
I'd say it looks too cluttered with the tags in place. It is always neat to have the option to dig deeper and have it displayed, but I'd reckon it should be elsewhere.
*chuckle*
Looking at it .. oh.. is that like what determines the attribute change? Got it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
It's valueable but it still looks terrible.
Myself, I'd always keep old weapons around (1 of them each, if there are duplicates) unless I really really really really need some extra cash, so I keep them.
You can compare later again so I say keep them out. You see the effect in the attributes, any time you need it, that is what you ultimately focus on. Not why those numbers are as they are, that comes second if at all.
Just make sure that players know there are scaling effects somewhere so it might be wise to keep old weapons around.
The key difference is whether or not you need those numbers beyond that. Say if there were other means of strengthening certain attributes and focusing on stuff. I'd wager that is not the case.
There are games like Grim Dawn where you stack all kinds of +% for all kinds of damage types, attributes and more but this ultimately enables you to know what build and character those items are good far and who not so much. (like +%fire damage, vs + %all damage, crucial difference and just having a number change in your damage/other points would be terrible and very very confusing as your loot is NOT adjusted to your specific characters, but taken from a huge pool for everyone)
In this case? You already see the effect and nothing beyond it is happening, nor are there any outer influences to this ability.
You have a set value to add, and a scaling value to add. You have the gain you see, nothing beyond that is affected. Simple and good.
You already see the gain, and you can see that it changes and have it explained as a general note for about all weapons. You can compare and see those numbers previewed or changed any time in your equipment window (thank you, equipment window!), so even without that exact percentage tag you will notice and see the differences over time // just adjust and recheck your equipment every now and then ignoring all of that.
Knowing it has no benefit whatsoever. I certainly would never view my character status to then manually calculate if that percentage is already stronger than that set value on the weapon I am using when instead .. I could just open the equipment window and see if it still is better for my stats or not.
What I DO need to know is that "some scaling on weapons is happening somewhere" which can be explained once and for all.
I mean, what DOES that mean? Is it its own spell you can use with it that works off those percentages or does it affect your ingame performance? Is that explained somewhere in the game?
I'd say it looks too cluttered with the tags in place. It is always neat to have the option to dig deeper and have it displayed, but I'd reckon it should be elsewhere.
*chuckle*
Looking at it .. oh.. is that like what determines the attribute change? Got it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
It's valueable but it still looks terrible.
Myself, I'd always keep old weapons around (1 of them each, if there are duplicates) unless I really really really really need some extra cash, so I keep them.
You can compare later again so I say keep them out. You see the effect in the attributes, any time you need it, that is what you ultimately focus on. Not why those numbers are as they are, that comes second if at all.
Just make sure that players know there are scaling effects somewhere so it might be wise to keep old weapons around.
The key difference is whether or not you need those numbers beyond that. Say if there were other means of strengthening certain attributes and focusing on stuff. I'd wager that is not the case.
There are games like Grim Dawn where you stack all kinds of +% for all kinds of damage types, attributes and more but this ultimately enables you to know what build and character those items are good far and who not so much. (like +%fire damage, vs + %all damage, crucial difference and just having a number change in your damage/other points would be terrible and very very confusing as your loot is NOT adjusted to your specific characters, but taken from a huge pool for everyone)
In this case? You already see the effect and nothing beyond it is happening, nor are there any outer influences to this ability.
You have a set value to add, and a scaling value to add. You have the gain you see, nothing beyond that is affected. Simple and good.
You already see the gain, and you can see that it changes and have it explained as a general note for about all weapons. You can compare and see those numbers previewed or changed any time in your equipment window (thank you, equipment window!), so even without that exact percentage tag you will notice and see the differences over time // just adjust and recheck your equipment every now and then ignoring all of that.
Knowing it has no benefit whatsoever. I certainly would never view my character status to then manually calculate if that percentage is already stronger than that set value on the weapon I am using when instead .. I could just open the equipment window and see if it still is better for my stats or not.
What I DO need to know is that "some scaling on weapons is happening somewhere" which can be explained once and for all.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
RMN ate my last response, so here's my second attempt:
Thanks! Yeah, keeping all relevant information consolidated in one place is a good point so long as the information isn't too cluttered. With the change to equipment, I actually had a tag run off the edge of the screen since there were so many properties changed. That was when I started calling the layout into question.
Thank you so much for such a detailed explanation of your reasoning! It's precisely because you haven't look at this game in its entirety that your feedback is so valuable! This is arguably the most important aspect of party preparation in the game, so if the info is cluttered and difficult to read for someone who isn't used to the game, it's worth taking a critical look at.
These tags were originally added because equipment (particularly weapons) you get at the beginning of the game should still have a viable use by the end. That's why I wanted to have this info front and center. Thanks to the in-game reference guide, general notes about equipment changes (like stat scaling) are easily accessed without cluttering up the equip descriptions themselves, so the info is still conveyed to the player. Thanks to you, I'm getting a better idea of what should be left to the guide.
I'm gonna spend time thinking about this. In the meantime keep the opinions coming!!
author=NeverSilent
Interesting. I actually do look at the parameter tags for everything, but I admit that the actual change in stats in the top right of the screen is what usually gets much more of my attention. Still, I'd say that unless you really need that text space for other things, it seems better to keep the information there. Especially with the new stat change system, players should be able to immediately discern and remember that the percentage-based stat changes might make certain early-game items more useful again later in the game, too.
Other than that, the changes you made sound very good, and I'm already excited to see more of your animations. Good work!
Thanks! Yeah, keeping all relevant information consolidated in one place is a good point so long as the information isn't too cluttered. With the change to equipment, I actually had a tag run off the edge of the screen since there were so many properties changed. That was when I started calling the layout into question.
author=Kylaila
Looking at the first screenshot, I feel it's too much and I don't quite know what those percentages are even supposed to mean.
I mean, what DOES that mean? Is it its own spell you can use with it that works off those percentages or does it affect your ingame performance? Is that explained somewhere in the game?
I'd say it looks too cluttered with the tags in place. It is always neat to have the option to dig deeper and have it displayed, but I'd reckon it should be elsewhere.
*chuckle*
Looking at it .. oh.. is that like what determines the attribute change? Got it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
It's valueable but it still looks terrible.
Myself, I'd always keep old weapons around (1 of them each, if there are duplicates) unless I really really really really need some extra cash, so I keep them.
You can compare later again so I say keep them out. You see the effect in the attributes, any time you need it, that is what you ultimately focus on. Not why those numbers are as they are, that comes second if at all.
Just make sure that players know there are scaling effects somewhere so it might be wise to keep old weapons around.
The key difference is whether or not you need those numbers beyond that. Say if there were other means of strengthening certain attributes and focusing on stuff. I'd wager that is not the case.
There are games like Grim Dawn where you stack all kinds of +% for all kinds of damage types, attributes and more but this ultimately enables you to know what build and character those items are good far and who not so much. (like +%fire damage, vs + %all damage, crucial difference and just having a number change in your damage/other points would be terrible and very very confusing as your loot is NOT adjusted to your specific characters, but taken from a huge pool for everyone)
In this case? You already see the effect and nothing beyond it is happening, nor are there any outer influences to this ability.
You have a set value to add, and a scaling value to add. You have the gain you see, nothing beyond that is affected. Simple and good.
You already see the gain, and you can see that it changes and have it explained as a general note for about all weapons. You can compare and see those numbers previewed or changed any time in your equipment window (thank you, equipment window!), so even without that exact percentage tag you will notice and see the differences over time // just adjust and recheck your equipment every now and then ignoring all of that.
Knowing it has no benefit whatsoever. I certainly would never view my character status to then manually calculate if that percentage is already stronger than that set value on the weapon I am using when instead .. I could just open the equipment window and see if it still is better for my stats or not.
What I DO need to know is that "some scaling on weapons is happening somewhere" which can be explained once and for all.
Thank you so much for such a detailed explanation of your reasoning! It's precisely because you haven't look at this game in its entirety that your feedback is so valuable! This is arguably the most important aspect of party preparation in the game, so if the info is cluttered and difficult to read for someone who isn't used to the game, it's worth taking a critical look at.
These tags were originally added because equipment (particularly weapons) you get at the beginning of the game should still have a viable use by the end. That's why I wanted to have this info front and center. Thanks to the in-game reference guide, general notes about equipment changes (like stat scaling) are easily accessed without cluttering up the equip descriptions themselves, so the info is still conveyed to the player. Thanks to you, I'm getting a better idea of what should be left to the guide.
I'm gonna spend time thinking about this. In the meantime keep the opinions coming!!
You're very welcome : )
And I am glad it is helpful! Lazy, okay not lazy, but outsider views ftw, hahaha.
*nod* definitely reasonable to make sure every weapon is useful.
You could of course also disable selling them entirely, but as long as you make it known that they grow with you it'd be fine : )
Keep up the good work, and good luck to finding a sweet spot that's just right for you.
And I am glad it is helpful! Lazy, okay not lazy, but outsider views ftw, hahaha.
*nod* definitely reasonable to make sure every weapon is useful.
You could of course also disable selling them entirely, but as long as you make it known that they grow with you it'd be fine : )
Keep up the good work, and good luck to finding a sweet spot that's just right for you.
argh
792
I think you definitely need to include the tags if you're going with % based modifiers. Those aren't common in RPGs, and aren't clear just from a glance. It'd be nice to be able to tell which equipment give what stats without having to test them all individually.
The tags do look pretty bulky though... Is it possible to display them in a smaller font?
The tags do look pretty bulky though... Is it possible to display them in a smaller font?
Malandy
357
Wait... There's buffs... Do the equipment percentage boosts get applied after the buffs or before?
'Cause if you buff some stat, and equipment boosts are applied after, equipment with high percentage changes, but low fixed boosts could be more useful than equipment with those flipped.
'Cause if you buff some stat, and equipment boosts are applied after, equipment with high percentage changes, but low fixed boosts could be more useful than equipment with those flipped.
I wish I had something to add, but Kylaila basically said everything for me. That was my only real concern with what I was seeing. Unless it's a puzzle game, don't swamp the player in maths.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Kylaila
You're very welcome : )
And I am glad it is helpful! Lazy, okay not lazy, but outsider views ftw, hahaha.
*nod* definitely reasonable to make sure every weapon is useful.
You could of course also disable selling them entirely, but as long as you make it known that they grow with you it'd be fine : )
Keep up the good work, and good luck to finding a sweet spot that's just right for you.
Thanks! I'll keep at it!
Regarding disabling selling: Weapons aren't unique, so being able to sell extras is necessary.
author=argh
I think you definitely need to include the tags if you're going with % based modifiers. Those aren't common in RPGs, and aren't clear just from a glance. It'd be nice to be able to tell which equipment give what stats without having to test them all individually.
True. I'm not sure how apparent it is in the public demo right now, but I've been trying to standardize certain equipment bonuses and penalties for armor. For example, all light armor would give 1 + 10% bonus to Armor and 1-15% penalty to Max SP. If that information can be referenced in the guide, then that problem is solved. Failing that, the standard could be something less concrete, like light armor giving more % changes and heavy armor giving more set value changes.
Weapons and Personal items would be more varied with stat changes, but since they are more personalized for each character, players would be testing each one anyway when changing them.
Standardization is still kinda up in the air, but it would be more likely to happen if the param tags were to go away.
The tags do look pretty bulky though... Is it possible to display them in a smaller font?
Just the tags alone? Not without serious rewrites to message systems, which isn't a good idea at this stage. The only other way at this point would be to reduce the font size all across the board, which I don't think is much better.
author=Malandy
Wait... There's buffs... Do the equipment percentage boosts get applied after the buffs or before?
'Cause if you buff some stat, and equipment boosts are applied after, equipment with high percentage changes, but low fixed boosts could be more useful than equipment with those flipped.
Buffs apply after equipment bonuses.
author=pianotm
I wish I had something to add, but Kylaila basically said everything for me. That was my only real concern with what I was seeing. Unless it's a puzzle game, don't swamp the player in maths.
You added another vote for removing the tags. That's worth a post!
Well, battles themselves have at least a SLIGHT element of puzzles to them. Like "Let's change our stats in such a way that favors a specific strategy" instead of "BOOST ALL THE NUMBAS!" kind of puzzle. I'll keep the suppression of calculations in mind, though. Thanks!
Crystalgate
694
Let's start with the advantages of the tags. They are fun for people who want to know how things work and not just the results of their workings. This is a relative small advantage though, since those people are unlikely to get intimidated by the lack of tags and leave. However, if you let's say have one piece of equipment with +5 +20% and another with +2 +30%, then there's a much bigger reason to include the tags. The former gear may be better now, but the latter will eventually be the better one and the player won't know that without the tags. Likewise, if you have one gear with +5 +30% and another with +5 +35%, the upper right box may say they are equal while they eventually won't be.
As long as you consistently make sure that equipment with higher % bonuses also have higher static bonuses, then the tags are not really needed, but may still be wanted by some players.
As for disadvantages, they are mostly psychological, but often still critical. I've seen let's tries where the player played a game with a high character customization and said something in line of "I want you to be a rogue type of character" and then raised agility, dexterity, luck or whatever, that without knowing how those stats actually work. However, when the same players see an actual number, like the tags in you game, they get worried. I'm guessing that even though they are happy with raising a stat they don't know the exact working of, when they see the actual numbers, they assume they are supposed to understand them and are worried if they don't.
In short, the problem with the tags may be that the players erroneously assume they have to understand and pay attention to them instead of happily ignore them if they don't want to bother with them. Heck, the "Slash" and "Crit +10%" are more important than the base stat increase tags, but not every one will know that.
When it comes to the SP tags, there's one added reason to keep them compared to stat tags. The player may notice that the cost goes go up as the game goes on, but not know why. She or he may think the cost goes up with level, something I've seen happen in games, and thus overvalue the benefit of raising max SP. In one or another way, the player should be informed that increasing your max SP may also increase the SP cost and that in a way that's not easily missed or forgotten.
As long as you consistently make sure that equipment with higher % bonuses also have higher static bonuses, then the tags are not really needed, but may still be wanted by some players.
As for disadvantages, they are mostly psychological, but often still critical. I've seen let's tries where the player played a game with a high character customization and said something in line of "I want you to be a rogue type of character" and then raised agility, dexterity, luck or whatever, that without knowing how those stats actually work. However, when the same players see an actual number, like the tags in you game, they get worried. I'm guessing that even though they are happy with raising a stat they don't know the exact working of, when they see the actual numbers, they assume they are supposed to understand them and are worried if they don't.
In short, the problem with the tags may be that the players erroneously assume they have to understand and pay attention to them instead of happily ignore them if they don't want to bother with them. Heck, the "Slash" and "Crit +10%" are more important than the base stat increase tags, but not every one will know that.
When it comes to the SP tags, there's one added reason to keep them compared to stat tags. The player may notice that the cost goes go up as the game goes on, but not know why. She or he may think the cost goes up with level, something I've seen happen in games, and thus overvalue the benefit of raising max SP. In one or another way, the player should be informed that increasing your max SP may also increase the SP cost and that in a way that's not easily missed or forgotten.
I'm of the mind that stat-tags that include percentile-based increases/decreases are only useful if players know, or can find out, what the base value that's being increased. As far as weapons are concerned, one has to be equipped at all times. So, a base value for STR just isn't going to happen without a reverse formula. Some players may do that, but, I would think most wouldn't bother, and just look at the change in numbers.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Thanks so much for laying out both sides of the issue, Crystalgate! That's given me a lot to think about! Information like equipment and SP cost % will absolutely go in the guide, so it will be there for players to reference should they choose to.
Something I should have also considered was what players see when buying equipment from shops. The exact stat changes weapons and armors have are on full display on the shop menu. Because not every weapon is acquired through the shop, it would be silly to be able to see the specifics of some gear but not others. If I were to take out tags from gear, then I would have to do something about the shop parameter list as well to keep from sending incomplete messages to players.
I think this might be the crux of the issue here. Anyone who has played the demo can remember Amalie has a passive that reduces all her basic stats. Already, this means the exact base value is impossible to calculate in your head. Plus, changing weapons in battle displays the stats changed when characters are inflicted with buffs/debuffs/states/etc. which further makes exact calculations difficult.
Hm. There's a lot to mull over. Keeping them and removing them seem to have equal advantages and disadvantages. For the time being, I'm going to see if I can't make these tags easier to read, like spacing them apart more or something.
Something I should have also considered was what players see when buying equipment from shops. The exact stat changes weapons and armors have are on full display on the shop menu. Because not every weapon is acquired through the shop, it would be silly to be able to see the specifics of some gear but not others. If I were to take out tags from gear, then I would have to do something about the shop parameter list as well to keep from sending incomplete messages to players.
author=Marrend
I'm of the mind that stat-tags that include percentile-based increases/decreases are only useful if players know, or can find out, what the base value that's being increased. As far as weapons are concerned, one has to be equipped at all times. So, a base value for STR just isn't going to happen without a reverse formula. Some players may do that, but, I would think most wouldn't bother, and just look at the change in numbers.
I think this might be the crux of the issue here. Anyone who has played the demo can remember Amalie has a passive that reduces all her basic stats. Already, this means the exact base value is impossible to calculate in your head. Plus, changing weapons in battle displays the stats changed when characters are inflicted with buffs/debuffs/states/etc. which further makes exact calculations difficult.
Hm. There's a lot to mull over. Keeping them and removing them seem to have equal advantages and disadvantages. For the time being, I'm going to see if I can't make these tags easier to read, like spacing them apart more or something.
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