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Juno Treisse can't really claim to have had a rough life. Discovering her passion and talent for writing early on, she made a decent name for herself writing mystery novels and short stories. Together with her friend and co-author, Vincent Creek, she managed to eke out an acceptable, if not exactly bountiful, living.

Yet, in the back of her mind, a strange presence dwells. It pulses and writhes, laying a thin, but encompassing, blanket of static noise on top of Juno's thoughts. Often she will catch herself just as her blood rises to a boiling point for no discernible reason. As the pain and noise grew in intensity, she began having hallucinations. She sees a murky swamp nearly flooded in a thick black mud, and monsters roaming the precious little land sticking out.

Yet, while far from benign, Juno feels no immediate threat from these creatures. In fact, she feels drawn to them, as if invited to join them in mutual suffering. There's a part of her seems to resonate with these monsters. A part of her she wants to bury deep within herself and forget ever existed.


Three Cheers for the Strawman is a ~30 minute RPG which aims to be brought from initial concept to completed product in about a week. The main inspiration behind this was the idea of struggling with thoughts and feelings you can't control, despite your internal logic indicating otherwise.

No RTP needed. Just download and play!

Latest Blog

Burning the Strawman

Having the story change based on player behavior is incredibly important to me. One might say it's the most important aspect of my design philosophy. Three Cheers for the Strawman went against that philosophy by starring a character who refused to accept the truth and sought asylum in a fabricated reality of punishment, despite what desperate measures her new acquaintance may have taken.

Every person is different in how they think, feel, and act. There are plenty of people who would have looked at Juno's situation and wrote her off as a lost cause, and that's perfectly understandable. However, what if, in all the acquaintances Juno meets in that nightmarish world, there was someone who wasn't willing to give up on her? What if there was someone who wanted to keep her from suffering as much as possible, either by planning out battle actions or running away when things looked grim? What if there was someone who kept her away from the End for as long as possible? What if there was someone who was willing to stay behind for her, when by all rights, should have abandoned her?

What if there was someone willing to force Juno back on her feet one last time?

Three Cheers for the Strawman has been updated.
  • Completed
  • Red_Nova
  • RPG Maker VX Ace
  • RPG
  • 02/08/2016 03:22 AM
  • 05/07/2020 05:40 PM
  • 02/11/2016
  • 67309
  • 22
  • 503

Posts

Pages: first prev 123 last
CashmereCat
Self-proclaimed Puzzle Snob
11638
I would be aggravated if someone asked me to credit them for unconscious influence of their game on my own, if their game did not even occur to me during the dev process.

Edit: But yeah, peace. ALONE and 3 Cheers are both interesting games in their own right.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Zydin
I post this in good will, mind you.


You just don't make a public post like the one you made in good will. I would have believed this statement if you made any attempt to contact me personally before going public, or even talking about it with Iddalai first. Hell, if you just copy and pasted this into a PM and sent it to me, then we could have talked about it and hopefully settled it without the need to drag in others. As it is, now the game's buzz has flared up and is on the front page because of drama rather than actual discussion on the game itself, which I find disgusting.

And yes, I'm aware of the hypocrisy of my posts contributing to the buzz. My point is that maybe this whole mess could have been avoided if we just talked about it. Maybe it just would have delayed this situation going public, but you seem like a rational person, so I like to think we could have settled this just between you and me.

But you're right. Peace now. If you want to keep this conversation going, then let's take it to PMs.
author=CashmereCat
I would be aggravated if someone asked me to credit them for unconscious influence of their game on my own, if their game did not even occur to me during the dev process.

Edit: But yeah, peace. ALONE and 3 Cheers are both interesting games in their own right.


I wouldn't think that, let's say for argument sake, George RR Martin would be aggravated if someone suggested that his Song of Ice and Fire series (where the Game of Thrones TV series were adapted from) were unconsciously influenced by JRR Tolkien's books. Quite the contrary, I think.

Still, Red Nova has already made clear that there was no conscious influence and I agree that it would be unfair to ask for admission of unconscious influence, for obvious reasons.

These are two great games in their own right that have similarities, maybe even influenced by a third or fourth work of art neither author is aware of.

I did send him an email. I wonder what Iddalai's take one this will be :)
author=Red_Nova
You just don't make a public post like the one you made in good will. I would have believed this statement if you made any attempt to contact me personally before going public, or even talking about it with Iddalai first. Hell, if you just copy and pasted this into a PM and sent it to me, then we could have talked about it and hopefully settled it without the need to drag in others. As it is, now the game's buzz has flared up and is on the front page because of drama rather than actual discussion on the game itself, which I find disgusting.

And yes, I'm aware of the hypocrisy of my posts contributing to the buzz. My point is that maybe this whole mess could have been avoided if we just talked about it. Maybe it just would have delayed this situation going public, but you seem like a rational person, so I like to think we could have settled this just between you and me.

But you're right. Peace now. If you want to keep this conversation going, then let's take it to PMs.

I gotcha and take your points in. Maybe that is what I should have done, gone to PM first. Yeah, that would have avoided heat for your game, sorry about that.

Oh well. PM me then, if you'd like to talk about this from this point forward.

Like I said before, I emailed Iddalai, so he'll soon be checking this out too.
Zydin, for future reference, don't double post. You can make multiple quotes per post and multiposting in a row is against site rules. You've found the edit button, make use of it to add more commentary.


As to the claim - frankly, I can think of at least three or four other games that this is 'like' and that it might have been inspired by, but even if it were it would not have to put any kind of 'this was inspired by' in the description or credits. It's only when you have something that is heavily inspired by another game that that might be necessary, and even then it would be up to the developer as to whether they wanted to do that or not (it is recommended else you get people like you posting on their pages demanding retribution against the mere mortal who dares to draw inspiration from anything ever).

Frankly, I'm sure ALONE was inspired by many other games out there, but I don't see you championing their cause.


-the fights are also sort of puzzles (you need to use newly acquired items to unlock the solution of the fight).

Probably taken from Cope Island which does this amazingly. Also Pale Echoes does this too. In fact, more than a couple of games do as well.

-the atmosphere of the game is similar. The base idea of psychological interaction with the world is also similar.

There's a shit ton of games based on the psyche of the character and interaction between them and the world. I hope you're not trying to say that my own game in this kind of genre was stolen too, because quite frankly you'd be wrong.

-the game progression is set up in the same way, with a fights working as doors to the following areas or protecting treasures.

Just like most old-school jRPGs. Who knew that they'd have seen the future and managed to steal from a game that didn't even exist yet! :O

-in Iddalai's game, leveling up will reduce stats instead of increasing. In Red Nova's game, the crystals seem to increase at first, but then there are a few that surprisingly reduce stats, creating the same surprise effect as in Iddalai's game.

It's been done many times before. In fact, there was this amazing little game from about 2-3 years ago called Veek which did this so well.


-Iddalai's game was built in a way to frustrate the player into giving up as part of the psychological experience. In Red Nova's game, everytime one loses, there is a message motivating the player to quit.

OMG it's like every horror game ever!!! Not a new concept at all - a lot of games do this.

-similarly to "ALONE", this game uses different game setting and lore-related names for weapons and enemies.

As does a lot of jRPGs and other games that have weaponry. Seriously, you're reaching for straws here.

I did some research into Iddalai's game url and found that Red Nova admittedly enjoyed the game very much and commented as such:

And? That means nothing. You're building quite the ...strawman argument.

Still, credit is due and I believe Red Nova owes Iddalai credit for influence and ideas.

He doesn't.
author=Liberty
Zydin, for future reference, don't double post. You can make multiple quotes per post and multiposting in a row is against site rules. You've found the edit button, make use of it to add more commentary.


As to the claim - frankly, I can think of at least three or four other games that this is 'like' and that it might have been inspired by, but even if it were it would not have to put any kind of 'this was inspired by' in the description or credits. It's only when you have something that is heavily inspired by another game that that might be necessary, and even then it would be up to the developer as to whether they wanted to do that or not (it is recommended else you get people like you posting on their pages demanding retribution against the mere mortal who dares to draw inspiration from anything ever).

Frankly, I'm sure ALONE was inspired by many other games out there, but I don't see you championing their cause.


-the fights are also sort of puzzles (you need to use newly acquired items to unlock the solution of the fight).

Probably taken from Cope Island which does this amazingly. Also Pale Echoes does this too. In fact, more than a couple of games do as well.

-the atmosphere of the game is similar. The base idea of psychological interaction with the world is also similar.

There's a shit ton of games based on the psyche of the character and interaction between them and the world. I hope you're not trying to say that my own game in this kind of genre was stolen too, because quite frankly you'd be wrong.

-the game progression is set up in the same way, with a fights working as doors to the following areas or protecting treasures.

Just like most old-school jRPGs. Who knew that they'd have seen the future and managed to steal from a game that didn't even exist yet! :O

-in Iddalai's game, leveling up will reduce stats instead of increasing. In Red Nova's game, the crystals seem to increase at first, but then there are a few that surprisingly reduce stats, creating the same surprise effect as in Iddalai's game.

It's been done many times before. In fact, there was this amazing little game from about 2-3 years ago called Veek which did this so well.


-Iddalai's game was built in a way to frustrate the player into giving up as part of the psychological experience. In Red Nova's game, everytime one loses, there is a message motivating the player to quit.

OMG it's like every horror game ever!!! Not a new concept at all - a lot of games do this.

-similarly to "ALONE", this game uses different game setting and lore-related names for weapons and enemies.

As does a lot of jRPGs and other games that have weaponry. Seriously, you're reaching for straws here.

I did some research into Iddalai's game url and found that Red Nova admittedly enjoyed the game very much and commented as such:

And? That means nothing. You're building quite the ...strawman argument.

Still, credit is due and I believe Red Nova owes Iddalai credit for influence and ideas.

He doesn't.


Thank you for your comments and also the advice about double posting.

I have agreed above with Red Nova to only discuss this further privately (through PM), so as to not overload the game discussion forum with anything other than actual game discussion, if he (or anyone else) wishes to do so.

Regards!
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
So...

Drama strikes again.

Well, firstly, and because I understand Red_Nova's concern with buzzing, I'll start by talking about "Three Cheers for the Strawman" (played both endings):

- The high pitch sound that plays during the intro (and other parts of the game) is a bit too loud, it's a great choice for the atmosphere but as it is it may be too painful for some people.

- I love the swamp ambience sound, it immediately draws me into the setting.

- I like how each map name is related with the different acts of the story.

- The music is well chosen and sets the mood right.

- I like the visual effects that kinda look like old rainy image quality and dark tone.

- Juno's image in the stat menu kinda makes her look male, dunno if this was on purpose, but I feel like pointing it out.

- Does "Will" do something besides hit points or is it only there to show us how high or low Juno is feeling?

- I think the game would benefit from having new sprites for chests, crystals and monsters, just to make it all custom (DS battle sprites are OK since they're not used very often and were well chosen for their function, "Mask" comes to mind).

- The story is interesting since it affects us all in one way or another, we've all doubted our skills before, specially when working with other people.

- Some battles I lost or won due to randomness, missing attacks, I don't know if that was the point. After some time I could get away with only using the cleaver over and over and then finishing the enemies off which made other weapons redundant.

- In the "Out of time" map, there's this text box "Juno's first foray into the comedy scene with 'Wacky Times with Mr.Headfield' received astonishingly poor reviews. The chief criticism is that the jokes all felt forced", the word "forced" steps out of the text box.

- In the same map, some objects cannot be examined which I felt went against what the previous maps teached me, it's not a gameplay necessity, but it adds to the atmosphere.

- I liked the idea of using a certain weapon to finish enemies off, it gives the battles a nice dynamic.

- I like the idea of delaying the "end" battle and how that may change the ending depending on how many times you lost, but do the answers we give also shape the ending? Some of the answers make it seem like the player doesn't care for Juno at all which would make the good ending afterwards a bit dissonant.

- I think the idea of strawman could have been played more, it's only in the title and alluded metaphorically by the story concept and nothing else.

- I enjoyed the game, it's a well thought experience!


Now about the other "stuff".

Having played the game, I do notice some gameplay similarities, although I feel my great friend Zydin may have exaggerated a bit :P

I can't get angry at him, after all he had my best interest at heart and was just worried about me. He's that kinda guy :)

Even if "Three Cheers for the Strawman" had been influenced by my game (which many have come to call "ALONE"), I wouldn't ask for credit.
Of course I'd feel honoured if I was mentioned as an influence by someone like Red_Nova, had it been the case :) But I wouldn't ask for it, that's the kind of action that should come from the creator himself.

Sorry for posting here, but since this is public I feel everyone deserves to know what I think about it.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Thanks for the input for both the game and the situation, iddalai! Sorry it took an issue like this to bring in feedback, but I'm glad to see it regardless. I'll fix the minor errors, like the textbox slip and the ringing volume, whenever I don't have three other projects I'm working on. To respond to some points (hidden because some points contain spoilers):


No, Juno wasn't supposed to look like a dude. I just suck at drawing quickly, since I knocked out her portrait in only three hours so I could work on everything else. It's also why I went with RTP characters instead of making them myself (unmoving tiles are a bit easier to make than spriting and animating a character, after all!)

Will is the name for Juno's health. You could see it labeled as such in the battle screen.

Your answers to Juno's questions don't really make a difference. That was in the original plan, but time constraints kept me from adding in everything I wanted to, including the new ending. When I went to add it back in, I


I'm glad to see this all settled.
author=iddalai
So...

Drama strikes again.

Well, firstly, and because I understand Red_Nova's concern with buzzing, I'll start by talking about "Three Cheers for the Strawman" (played both endings):

- The high pitch sound that plays during the intro (and other parts of the game) is a bit too loud, it's a great choice for the atmosphere but as it is it may be too painful for some people.

- I love the swamp ambience sound, it immediately draws me into the setting.

- I like how each map name is related with the different acts of the story.

- The music is well chosen and sets the mood right.

- I like the visual effects that kinda look like old rainy image quality and dark tone.

- Juno's image in the stat menu kinda makes her look male, dunno if this was on purpose, but I feel like pointing it out.

- Does "Will" do something besides hit points or is it only there to show us how high or low Juno is feeling?

- I think the game would benefit from having new sprites for chests, crystals and monsters, just to make it all custom (DS battle sprites are OK since they're not used very often and were well chosen for their function, "Mask" comes to mind).

- The story is interesting since it affects us all in one way or another, we've all doubted our skills before, specially when working with other people.

- Some battles I lost or won due to randomness, missing attacks, I don't know if that was the point. After some time I could get away with only using the cleaver over and over and then finishing the enemies off which made other weapons redundant.

- In the "Out of time" map, there's this text box "Juno's first foray into the comedy scene with 'Wacky Times with Mr.Headfield' received astonishingly poor reviews. The chief criticism is that the jokes all felt forced", the word "forced" steps out of the text box.

- In the same map, some objects cannot be examined which I felt went against what the previous maps teached me, it's not a gameplay necessity, but it adds to the atmosphere.

- I liked the idea of using a certain weapon to finish enemies off, it gives the battles a nice dynamic.

- I like the idea of delaying the "end" battle and how that may change the ending depending on how many times you lost, but do the answers we give also shape the ending? Some of the answers make it seem like the player doesn't care for Juno at all which would make the good ending afterwards a bit dissonant.

- I think the idea of strawman could have been played more, it's only in the title and alluded metaphorically by the story concept and nothing else.

- I enjoyed the game, it's a well thought experience!


Now about the other "stuff".

Having played the game, I do notice some gameplay similarities, although I feel my great friend Zydin may have exaggerated a bit :P

I can't get angry at him, after all he had my best interest at heart and was just worried about me. He's that kinda guy :)

Even if "Three Cheers for the Strawman" had been influenced by my game (which many have come to call "ALONE"), I wouldn't ask for credit.
Of course I'd feel honoured if I was mentioned as an influence by someone like Red_Nova, had it been the case :) But I wouldn't ask for it, that's the kind of action that should come from the creator himself.

Sorry for posting here, but since this is public I feel everyone deserves to know what I think about it.

Sorry, Iddalai, for having put you in this position and also apologies to Red_Nova for not offering my thoughts privately first.

I hope you understand that when one likes something so much (as I do ALONE), it is easy to let that emotion be an influence on one's actions.

Credits to both Iddalai and Red_Nova for putting together two great gems!
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
Feedback continued:

About how Juno looks - Ah, so that's why! Time constraints can do that :P
Yeah, sprites take much more time, but I think it would look even better and add to the atmosphere.

About Will - Oh I understood it was HP, I even called it "hit points" in my previous comment, I was just wondering if it was only that or had other functions. Going back to read my comment I can see it wasn't clear enough.

About the questions - I think there's some missing text in your post regarding this point, so I'll reply to it once I get your full answer :)
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
... Did I actually forget to finish my post before posting? Holy hell I think I just achieved derp Nirvana. Thanks for bringing it up.

All I was going to say is that when I went back in after the initial release to add in the new ending, I changed it's requirements to be a bit more subtle than just making choices. The chats were left in because talking to her was still an important part of the game.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
The return of feedback 2:

All in all I think it was a good choice, trying not to lose too much and delaying the last battle does makes it more subtle than the "typical choices affect ending".
shayoko
We do not condone harassing other members by PM.
515
random thoughts
that high pitched sound at the start of the game REALLY annoys me.

tho the battles were not tedious at all i still don't feel they were necessary.

when you are given a choice is it you (person who is watching the character you're controlling) or his friend / book partner?

does...the game read your pc name or something? that one line near the end was REALLY uncomfortable.
(looked at the first page after)


General 35M
This was a surprisingly refreshing experience excluding a certain moment.
i don't care for battles but at least they were not tedious in this at all in fact i only died like 4 times.which were because of being caught off guard by the enemies strategy.

the writing for this while not applying to me because i'm a exception.
is genius in how people may feel in the main characters situation.


Overall
its a quick,easy and might just be relatable to you. i recommend it.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Thanks for the thoughts, Shayoko, and for the follow up PM as well. I'm thrilled you liked it!
Don't know if this has been reported yet, but if I try to go back after clearing the first stage, the message "heart to heart 1" pops up, I see an image of Juno looking out over the swamp, and the game hangs.

Edit: Also, during the "Out of Time" sequence, one of the stat drops (in the upper portion, I think) has a large space in the "Juno's Will dropped by 20" message.

And finished with both endings.

I thought the "so I have this friend..." cliche in good ending was a bit silly and melodramatic... and the post-credits thing in the normal ending seems to imply that conversation happens anyway? Regardless, it was nice. I personally didn't find Juno's situation very relatable -- I don't have an envious bone in my body -- but the use of strength and gameplay mechanics to reflect her psyche was neat. I'm not sure how well you integrated the "intrusive thoughts" theme, though -- Juno seemed pretty in control of herself throughout the whole thing, with the conflict only really revealing itself at the very end. Were the monsters supposed to be the intrusive thoughts?

I liked the puzzle aspect to the battles even though they seemed to hit a plateau in difficulty past a certain point. I have to question the use of random events, though -- a single missed attack can completely change the outcome of the battle, And making retreat random is pretty mean when you usually only have one chance and the good ending is contingent on not dying too much. The revival mechanic felt a bit fumbled -- I like games that play with the idea of failure states and the player's ability to repeat things, but the fact you can still save and reload if you screw up sort of undermined that, especially in the final sequence where losing gets you a standard game over. (Despite the dramatic proclamation of "now if you fall there's no one to catch you" it's effectively no different than it was before, isn't it?) The point might have been stronger if failing battles never had any long-term consequence and saving Juno required some other kind of perseverance.


Also, is there any way to access the crystals walled off by antidepressants, or are they just there to taunt you?

And now I'll have to check out this other game people are screaming at you about. Perhaps it was just a viral marketing campaign all along? :p
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Whoops. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll fix it!

EDIT: I had this tab saved but didn't refresh, so I missed your edit.

I'm sorry you feel that way about the outcome. Personally, I'm pretty proud of how it was handled. For the record, the conversations with Vincent in both endings have wildly different outcomes depending on the context of Juno's mental state. The same conversation certainly does not happen in the first ending than the second.

Yeah, randomness can make or break a battle. However, I feel like it adds to the frustration of coping with these kinds of feelings, so that's why it was left in.


Yeah, those crystals blocked by antidepressants are not meant to be obtained.
Hmm, got the bad ending first.
The controllable helplessness of being unable to respond to Juon was cruel. And the memories in 'Out of Time' certainly did more than drain her stats; it also made me feel her despair. The demon at the 'End' was also cruel since you couldn't back out once you've entered its room and could do nothing but wait for it to approach and kill you.

Although, I did manage to beat it by luck. Whip to reduce it to one attack, then Butcher to heal (only works if you didn't get the 3 memories in the Ambition area that drop stats). With 80 HP, the demon will take out 50 of that while Butcher restores 40. But if it misses (that's what I mean by luck), you're free to use Fury/Bow and then follow up with a stronger and more healing Butcher. Then use the other you didn't use first (Fury/Bow) and Butcher it until you can Execute.

'Course, killing it (on the first encounter) doesn't net you a ending like I thought it would. Just a black screen with the music still playing. Though you can still access Juno's stats menu and quit. Just thought you'd like to know.

I thought my responses to Juno's questions would affect the ending...
They don't. I had to die repeatedly (until the final message?) before entering 'Hell' and then get pwned by the demon. Who knew making Juno feel all that pain and despair made all the difference in allowing her to be able to hear my voice telling her I haven't given up on her? You'd think in this sort of game where you get depressingly worse comments from Juno with each defeat, that not dying a lot would be a good thing but it turns out you're not rewarded for a "perfect run" but enough failures instead.

The fact that I restarted the game a few times to choose different responses didn't help how I felt about this. A good amount of extra time beyond 30 minutes was lost doing that and trying to see if the demon really was an impossible battle.

Still, I at least enjoyed the "memory" dialogue and the descriptions when obtaining Armatas (My favorites are the Mask-destroying Bow and the Whip of contempt for those better than you). Some of those thoughts/feelings I can relate with.
CarlosDavilla
A cat from the underground. carlosdavilla.info
1855
Really amazing stuff right there.
Juno is empathetic, the story is interesting and compelling and the narrative feels pleasant to follow.
The only thing I don't really like that much and I think it is a pacing-killing game mechanic is the battle system.
I get it's a way to represent the character battling their own emotions, but I think it kills the pace of what the story is presenting and it is really on the nose on a game where you already go on about collecting Memory Crystals. Maybe it could be handled a little bit better for something that integrated better into the storytelling.
Besides that, it's a really good game, even though is so short.
I would like to see more things like this in the future.

Cheers.
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