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What are your opinions on the recent Yooka-Laylee controversy?

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Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
What I'd like to prevent is people on one side of the fence using the same kind of methodology they attribute to the other in order to close the doors/burn bridges and effectively become the thing they claim to be against. An extreme to one side or another is exactly what got us in this situation in the first place and it has yet to yield positive results. Putting pressure on any company to bend to the whim of a vocal minority and celebrating when they crumble (either into said pressure or out of business) isn't a responsible course of action, and it makes the ones doing the pressuring out to be the villain, as opposed to the company itself.

And to answer your question on what I mean by "fact": A fact is anything that doesn't change based on its convenience to any one discussion. Islamophobia/white supremacy/etc. isn't factual, therefore it doesn't have the same validity as saying "these certain things are actually happening and ignoring it won't make it go away". Islamophobia/white supremacy/etc. is an opinion, and to not be willing to make hard distinctions between what is factual and what is opinion is what's going to cause this moral ambiguity that's getting people hurt.
Thanks for the info, guys. If JonTron actually said those things (like literally, not implied) then I definitely understand why a lot of people are upset with him.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=PentagonBuddy
Again, i'm focusing on the white supremacy angle here. If someone comes to a convo thinking "this person isn't white, therefore their life has less value than mine", i'm wasting my time to try and convince them otherwise. I want them to feel unwelcome so i can have some breathing room.
That's a big jump from "people from other countries are stealing our jobs" to "people of other races are subhuman" there buddy.

Be careful not to accuse someone of believing anything like that unless you're absolutely, COMPLETELY sure. This guy's entire life has just been destroyed in an instant. What if you're wrong?
Mirak
Stand back. Artist at work. I paint with enthusiasm if not with talent.
9300
author=LockeZ
This guy's entire life has just been destroyed in an instant
whose life?
Kloe
I lost my arms in a tragic chibi accident
2236
author=Mirak
author=LockeZ
This guy's entire life has just been destroyed in an instant
whose life?

Jontron's I guess? Idk
Mirak
Stand back. Artist at work. I paint with enthusiasm if not with talent.
9300
Losing a few subscribers and a voice acting role in a videogame amounts to having your life be destroyed in an instant? Pewdiepie had it worse imo, and he was not even being intentionally antisemitic.

But then maybe lockez isn't talking about jontron. I am reading news about the whole thing and all of them list what i mentioned as jontron's only losses.
In short: AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA JONTRON IS A FOOOOOL

Let's be real, guys, the dude has been saying increasingly inflammatory things throughout the years. A company deciding those things are too far off brand isn't censorship or a denial of free speech, it's just good business. Every time one of these dudes that likes to say LITERALLY THE WORST THINGS finally gets a slap on the wrist, I say a very loud and jovial thank you.

Part of the problem is people like this thinking they can say whatever the fuck they want regardless of consequences. Well, now there are consequences. Maybe people will think twice about being openly bigoted in the future if they wanna keep their livelihoods.

(And anyone who wants to jam about free speech: that is irrelevant in the private sphere. It just means stuff like Trump can't arrest folks in the ACLU for the work their doing, not that a private company can't respond to some dude's bigotry)

Anyway yeah tl;dr my sister and I were literally cackling with glee about this over the weekend; more social and financial consequences for people advocating systemic violence because APPARENTLY "hey that hurts me" isn't a good enough reason to shut the fuck up
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=LockeZ
This guy's entire life has just been destroyed in an instant.

This isn't factual. Jontron is still doing extremely well with his 3+ million (3,137,033 as of this post) subscribers and monetized Youtube videos. If he was hemorrhaging subscribers across the board (even diehard fans that would support anything he'd do, including murder) because of this one instance, then we'd have reason to be concerned.

Even if his entire prospective fanbase from this moment on was the worst that society has to offer, those are still some pretty good numbers that he'd be able to sustain himself off of. Throw in a few university guest talks and a book deal and he'd be sitting pretty (works for people like Milo Yiannopoulos).

author=emmych
Anyway yeah tl;dr my sister and I were literally cackling with glee about this over the weekend; more social and financial consequences for people advocating systemic violence because APPARENTLY "hey that hurts me" isn't a good enough reason to shut the fuck up

As long as it doesn't slide from "people shouting antisemitic statements that downplay the severity of the Holocaust in the face of an actual Jew while he crumbles into tears is unacceptable and needs to be spoken out against" to "let's run this fucktard out of business because we had one small disagreement", I'm totally fine with it.

Let's also not forget that the financial and social loss Jontron faces from this decision ultimately boil down to being denied something he paid for himself without recompense. You can take from that what you will, but I know that if I were in his shoes, I'd like for any payment to only be transferred once agreed upon services are rendered. I think he should get bumped down to the next lowest tier (which excludes the prospect of a voice over opportunity) and see the difference be returned to his bank account, and in return he should ship the fancy microphone they claimed to have send to him back to them.
author=Corfaisus
And to answer your question on what I mean by "fact": A fact is anything that doesn't change based on its convenience to any one discussion. Islamophobia/white supremacy/etc. isn't factual, therefore it doesn't have the same validity as saying "these certain things are actually happening and ignoring it won't make it go away". Islamophobia/white supremacy/etc. is an opinion, and to not be willing to make hard distinctions between what is factual and what is opinion is what's going to cause this moral ambiguity that's getting people hurt.


alright, since you responded to a direct question i feel obligated to at least acknowledge that, so: I'm not saying these distinctions don't exist, it's that how people respond to something rarely has anything to do with whether it's a fact/opinion or objective/subjective.

but we have what sound like very different understandings of these ideas (like, i don't think bigotry is an opinion for starters). You aren't someone I'm really invested in trying to convince of anything, so that's probably the last thing i'll say to you on the matter. Might sound harsh, but uh, i imagine we both have better things to do

author=LockeZ
That's a big jump from "people from other countries are stealing our jobs" to "people of other races are subhuman" there buddy.


Yeah, and it's not a jump I make lightly? shockingly, there are a variety of ways and degrees someone can act racist. How i respond to an individual person will largely depend on context

author=LockeZ
Be careful not to accuse someone of believing anything like that unless you're absolutely, COMPLETELY sure.


I've developed an amazing three step process:
1) remember that it's impossible to know what someone truly believes, until we figure out telepathy. at best, you can look at someone's stated beliefs and decide if you believe them. In light of this, i don't bother trying to establish that i am COMPLETELY SURE someone thinks a specific thing.

2) since I can never be certain what someone believes, I look at what someone does/says. MUCH easier to find out. This is called "looking at information". in an especially emotional situation, i might lash out right away and handle it poorly, but sometimes that's what happens when you have these things called "feelings"

3) once i've looked at available info, i decide what I will do/say. the vast majority of the time it's actually "leave the room" rather than "holler at someone", but because "holler at someone" is the far more visible response, you might think i'm running around trashing people all the time.

Since the best I can do is "based on what this person says/does, they probably think a certain thing", I don't usually try to tell someone "hey I think you believe this". If they say "no" that's it, end of story. Again, I can't pop into their head and know if that's true or not. If I say "hey, the things you are saying/doing match up with what people who typically think this thing say/do", sure they'll probably still say "no", but at least there's more potential for a conversation.

author=LockeZ
What if you're wrong?


Seeing as how i'm a person on the internet with a tiny platform and basically 0 organizing skills, if I'm wrong then oh no! I have said a bunch of dumb & wrong things in public and some people will think poorly of me. This already happens, so oh well

also yeah, jontron still has 3 million subs. His career will be just fine. There are plenty of like-minded people he can surround himself with in his personal life for emotional support and cushions from social consequences
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
This is a smart move by the developer. You can't be associated with that kind of baggage. I don't really think they had much choice in the matter. People will give them shit for it, but they'll get over it.

Also, JonTron is not ruined, he still has a massive following and always will. Sorry, that's just reality.

Neither the developer nor Jontron are ruined. Apologies to those who, for some reason, feel the burning need to see others suffer because of these things. If the game sucks, the game will fail. If the game is awesome, this will not hurt sales. Jontron has produced quality youtube content in the past and probably will in the future.

My concern, like others have mentioned, is this is just yet another notch in the lose column for the culture at large. Yes, there is a war going on. We have gone so far beyond the point of true tolerance and open-mindedness that it's getting to be scary. Both sides have become awash in a staggering level of hubris. Both sides have come to conclusions that have allowed the culture to completely shit all over each other just because of dissenting opinions.

People are coming up with Casus Belli that didn't get used before. Punching a Nazi is fine, but ... basically anyone can be a deemed Nazi these days. True hate speech is nothing but toxic, but anything can be deemed hate speech. The lines have been blurred. It's just... not acceptable to think certain things and say certain things. Before, it was simply not agreeable or not preferable. Now, it has become literally unacceptable and intolerable. There is no tolerance. None. Why so many of you want to destroy peoples' livelihoods for having opinions is the scary part. I have never, ever had such vengeful and hateful feelings. Yes, I already know the rationalization. As explained before Casus Belli. "Well he's a bigot!" Yeah, lots of people are shitty. But going full Stalin-style Communist Party is not the answer.

I mean, do you want me to fail at everything I do if you disagree with me? I can say for certain that I do not want others to fail in their creative pursuits because of a dissenting opinion. That would be... just exceedingly cruel.

This has always been a thing, but it's rapidly getting way worse and everyone notices. There's no compromise, it's all brute force now, banning, silencing, censoring, and intimidating. Don't discuss, just punch people, or prevent them from being able to speak. This is concerning because when the words stop, the fists, and bullets start. No matter how much of a tough guy you are, you do not want fists and bullets to fly.

Whenever things come up offline, I am making a tremendous effort to listen more and talk less. Ask why, ask about the feelings behind the opinion. Avoid dismissing or discrediting. Now, some of the things I hear are genuinely disturbing, but at least it seems that the other party has lost a little tiny bit of their trigger-happy hostility after such an exchange. I invite others to chip away at this nectar-thick hostility if not already.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Oh would you look at that? Everyone's favorite e-celeb stalker Nick Monroe a.k.a. PressFartToContinue actually chimes in with something important for once.
https://twitter.com/nickmon1112/status/845742405596909568
Hidden for huge as fuck


So in all actuality, Jontron wasn't a backer and - in fact - showed no monetary support for the project from the get-go. All the things I said before about him deserving some reimbursement goes right out the window with that.
When I clicked on this status, I actually thought it was about Jim Sterling giving it 2/10. Otherwise, I don't care, since I literally haven't heard of JonTron before this thing happened, and I still haven't seen a single one of his videos.

As for the "sick society" thing... it's actually perfectly in line with the "elite overproduction" theory of Turchin, the creator of cliodynamics approach to sociology. Basically, as the inequality rises, being seen as the elite becomes a lot more important and more people strive to do so, meaning that there are several "potential elites" for every person actually seen as elite in their field, and so this both feeds into "anti-establishment" revolts, and itensifies pressure on existing elites in any given field to fail, in the hope they can be replaced. Recent elections have shown it doesn't actually take all that much capability to be elected US governor or president. Similarly, both the myriad of aspiring YouTubers and many people in "normal" jobs think professional YouTubers' success is random and they are eminently replaceable, so they do not mind seeing them fail once a good reason for it appears.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=NTC3
Similarly, both the myriad of aspiring YouTubers and many people in "normal" jobs think professional YouTubers' success is random and they are eminently replaceable, so they do not mind seeing them fail once a good reason for it appears.

This doesn't just apply to aspiring Youtubers. Take Onision for example: he recently exploded on iDubbbzTV for his "unearned popularity" for lack of a better term. Frankly, it's painful to watch someone with such an ego go on rants of biblical proportion against a guy who works the same job he does and at the same level so it's kind of hard to remember (or care) which video put the most blame on the guy, but this is his biggest rant against him.


He also went out of his way to show his disdain not just for Youtube but for the people who made him what he is by destroying the free trophies given to him for his success by Youtube, his gold play button plaques.

@Corfaisus

Yeah, this kind of stuff is offf-putting, and why I tend to not pay much attention to YouTube as a social phenomenon (as opposed to platform for music & trailers.) Right now, I only follow Jim Sterling for the dark side of Steam, BaerTaffy for DD playthroughs, + a few microchannels (1-7k) out of solidarity for featuring RM games. However, I know that YouTubers are hugely important to a game's success (Steamspy's creator confirmed a while ago that YouTube exposure correlates with sales more then either user or critical acclaim (i.e. high userscore/Metascore)), so I guess that in today's market, this relative disinterest is almost a luxury that no dev can afford if they are to go commercial.
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