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The older I get, the more I think that most criticisms that turn based is 'outdated' compared to action systems are ridiculous. It's like saying chess, or checkers even is 'outdated'.
Feldschlacht IV- 11/17/2016 09:23 PM
Posts 
Housekeeping
3571
CloseYeah; it's particularly strange since both gameplay systems developed side by side, but in the past five/ten years, turn-based became increasingly considered dated.
They're taking it out of everything. Final Fantasy XIV really isn't the same as classic FF with it's action based system.
I've never personally heard people rag on turn-based games. Its the random encounters people gripe about.
Chess may be old but its still fun.
Chess may be old but its still fun.
Checkers got licked almost a decade ago!
People who attribute random encounters to a lack of computational power need to brush up on their RPG history too. It's like they never played Ultima 3 Exodus for the NES!
please don't play Ultima 3 Exodus for the NES, it's a really bad game. There's a reason why the series "starts" with U4.
author=Isrieri
I've never personally heard people rag on turn-based games. Its the random encounters people gripe about.
People who attribute random encounters to a lack of computational power need to brush up on their RPG history too. It's like they never played Ultima 3 Exodus for the NES!
please don't play Ultima 3 Exodus for the NES, it's a really bad game. There's a reason why the series "starts" with U4.
considering the recent popularity of card games, and how darkest dungeon and crypt of the necrodancer and undertale are best-sellers on steam, i highly doubt that turn-based is bad
the problem is that so many old turn-based games are bad and games that emulate them completely are therefore also dated and shit
compare 7th dragon iii code vfd or cthulhu saves the the world or shadowrun with some shit like the glut of awful rm* games on steam
one set has evolved, and the other... has not
the problem is that so many old turn-based games are bad and games that emulate them completely are therefore also dated and shit
compare 7th dragon iii code vfd or cthulhu saves the the world or shadowrun with some shit like the glut of awful rm* games on steam
one set has evolved, and the other... has not
RPGs haven't truly evolved until you can use an AoE to kill A and B which triggers A's revive ability where a horde of A's appear and start smacking you with their Jumbo Poles and chest hair and once you deal with them B suddenly revives too because A's revival took precedence over B's and there was no room for B to revive in until you killed A's clone army.
FF12 is a giant spotlight on the issues of JRPG design where the combat can be summed up with Buff/Debuff/HitWeakness except when they recognized it their solution was to automate it all instead of actually doing something about it.
(I know this post is basically two giant run-on sentences but my brain broke earlier in the day because I hate Oracle)
Fuck you Sun Wukong! Fuuuuuuuuuuuck yoooooooooooooooooou!
FF12 is a giant spotlight on the issues of JRPG design where the combat can be summed up with Buff/Debuff/HitWeakness except when they recognized it their solution was to automate it all instead of actually doing something about it.
(I know this post is basically two giant run-on sentences but my brain broke earlier in the day because I hate Oracle)
author=GRS
FF12 is a giant spotlight on the issues of JRPG design where the combat can be summed up with Buff/Debuff/HitWeakness except when they recognized it their solution was to automate it all instead of actually doing something about it.
I'm not sure this is really fair! (I don't mean the reference to FF12, but your statement in general) Buff/Debuff/HitWeakness, among other mechanics, is a stable of almost all RPGs (Western and Eastern and everything in between), and those aren't bad features, it's the application of those features that determine the complexity and quality of a game.
I mean, we can grind anything down to its base parts. Are all action games are 'hit the other dude until he's dead before he does the same to you'? That's not true either.
i'd agree that ff12 is almost cynical about it. (ff13 can be too.) i enjoyed the game, but the only unique thing about the battles player-side are some of the technicks, which were either useless or broken.
ff has a long-standing problem of being SO focused on the enemy side of battle design, not the player-side. unfortunately, the enemy side only matters in boss battles for most games. this is why lightning returns is my favorite FF, because so much of it is ACTUALLY IMPACTFUL CHOICES on how to design your Lightning. it's also part of why FFRK is so enjoyable for me, because the abilities are more than just Firaga (although Firaga exists, but it comes at an opportunity cost. sometimes pure damage IS the right choice though, and that's why it's okay to have the Firaga option!!!)
ff has a long-standing problem of being SO focused on the enemy side of battle design, not the player-side. unfortunately, the enemy side only matters in boss battles for most games. this is why lightning returns is my favorite FF, because so much of it is ACTUALLY IMPACTFUL CHOICES on how to design your Lightning. it's also part of why FFRK is so enjoyable for me, because the abilities are more than just Firaga (although Firaga exists, but it comes at an opportunity cost. sometimes pure damage IS the right choice though, and that's why it's okay to have the Firaga option!!!)
author=Craze
because the abilities are more than just Firaga (although Firaga exists, but it comes at an opportunity cost. sometimes pure damage IS the right choice though, and that's why it's okay to have the Firaga option!!!)
The proper application of 'cost benefit' adds a TON of depth to turn based RPGs (and any game, really)
Games have a disgusting social quality about them now that's completely divorced from their content. Like fashion. Especially prominent in teenagers now, who are using it as a vector to gain street cred among their peers... It's so repulsive.
author=Zachary_Braun
Games have a disgusting social quality about them now that's completely divorced from their content. Like fashion. Especially prominent in teenagers now, who are using it as a vector to gain street cred among their peers... It's so repulsive.
huh???????
The most current example I can think of with this, is people saying that because Final Fantasy XV has a day-one patch, they're incensed. Like Final Fantasy XV's integrity were tied to their own reputation, even though it's just a game. Reminds me of mysticism and brouhaha surrounding sports teams.
A more topical example would be a kid saying "I wouldn't be caught dead playing turn-based!" As if that statement has anything to do with the game itself.
Some people just use video games as a structure for social climbing now.
_____________
OH, wait, I see what I failed to make clear. I meant, the whole reason that people would denounce turn-based combat isn't because it isn't a valid form of game, but because it isn't trendy. Of course anyone can still play something like Bravely Default or Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne or Final Fantasy III (J) and have a good (and challenging) time doing it.
A more topical example would be a kid saying "I wouldn't be caught dead playing turn-based!" As if that statement has anything to do with the game itself.
Some people just use video games as a structure for social climbing now.
_____________
OH, wait, I see what I failed to make clear. I meant, the whole reason that people would denounce turn-based combat isn't because it isn't a valid form of game, but because it isn't trendy. Of course anyone can still play something like Bravely Default or Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne or Final Fantasy III (J) and have a good (and challenging) time doing it.
turkeyDawg
195
^ hey, at least we're past those "hands up who hates sprites?" dark ages of the 90s.
My experience with turn-based games is no doubt way less than other people on this forum, but personally, from what I've played, I feel the opposite of what you're saying here. Typically it seems that your player characters get shit-tons of battle options in addition to there being some kind of MEGA SKILL SPHERE TREE STAT CUSTOMIZER EXTREME-O-TRON 9000 system, but then 90% or more of the enemies (including many bosses) don't have any programming to them other than randomly choosing between one or two basic damage attacks and maybe a status option, really differing only in stats and elemental properties.
I mean, there's probably a reason that RPG Maker, without scripting, has practically nothing as far as controlling enemy AI goes. Or at least in XP - I don't know what's all been added since then.
Granted, when the average system is completely devoid of time or space and everyone can target anyone with any move they want every single turn, I guess there's really only so much that can be done?
Though, having said that, there are certainly plenty of action games (esp. beat 'em ups) where the player character has all kinds of cool moves, and most enemies just feel like combo food.
author=Craze
ff has a long-standing problem of being SO focused on the enemy side of battle design, not the player-side.
My experience with turn-based games is no doubt way less than other people on this forum, but personally, from what I've played, I feel the opposite of what you're saying here. Typically it seems that your player characters get shit-tons of battle options in addition to there being some kind of MEGA SKILL SPHERE TREE STAT CUSTOMIZER EXTREME-O-TRON 9000 system, but then 90% or more of the enemies (including many bosses) don't have any programming to them other than randomly choosing between one or two basic damage attacks and maybe a status option, really differing only in stats and elemental properties.
I mean, there's probably a reason that RPG Maker, without scripting, has practically nothing as far as controlling enemy AI goes. Or at least in XP - I don't know what's all been added since then.
Granted, when the average system is completely devoid of time or space and everyone can target anyone with any move they want every single turn, I guess there's really only so much that can be done?
Though, having said that, there are certainly plenty of action games (esp. beat 'em ups) where the player character has all kinds of cool moves, and most enemies just feel like combo food.
My experience with turn-based games is no doubt way less than other people on this forum, but personally, from what I've played, I feel the opposite of what you're saying here. Typically it seems that your player characters get shit-tons of battle options in addition to there being some kind of MEGA SKILL SPHERE TREE STAT CUSTOMIZER EXTREME-O-TRON 9000 system, but then 90% or more of the enemies (including many bosses) don't have any programming to them other than randomly choosing between one or two basic damage attacks and maybe a status option, really differing only in stats and elemental properties.
taking ffx and ff13 as examples, the sphere grid and crystarium are pretty superfluous. they're just a few more clicks to get your level-up bonuses. they look fancy, but there's very little there. meanwhile, the enemies and bosses require you to actually pay some attention.
bad games have bad enemies. that doesn't mean all games are bad, although i will concede a lot of games could do better.
Granted, when the average system is completely devoid of time or space and everyone can target anyone with any move they want every single turn, I guess there's really only so much that can be done?
hokay buddy
Though, having said that, there are certainly plenty of action games (esp. beat 'em ups) where the player character has all kinds of cool moves, and most enemies just feel like combo food.
this more has to do with player frustration and engagement. if the mooks in dynasty warriors were smart, the game would be fucking awful to play. that's why generals and enemy heroes exist.
turkeyDawg
195
well, honestly, in a musou game, smart grunts would probably fry the processors!
As for the link, this goes back to my not having played enough (not shit) games in the genre, so I don't have experience in how those kinds of attacks would actually get used, and how much fun they would really be. I mean, Pokemon has some more complex moves like that, but they're basically pointless in-game. Again, I really just need to play some games that aren't so damn braindead. :(
author=CrazeObviously. I figured you were talking specifically about where it the bad games go wrong.
bad games have bad enemies. that doesn't mean all games are bad,
As for the link, this goes back to my not having played enough (not shit) games in the genre, so I don't have experience in how those kinds of attacks would actually get used, and how much fun they would really be. I mean, Pokemon has some more complex moves like that, but they're basically pointless in-game. Again, I really just need to play some games that aren't so damn braindead. :(
Gredge109
4151
Some of the best games I've played on this site are from Craze and LockeZ, both of whom use some form of turn-based combat for the most part.
I read some post from years ago, either on this site or another, about how to make a turn-based battle system interesting. Someone gave an example, such as having a mini-boss that you have to kill by using a skill that first trips them, which then allows you to freeze them, which then allows another character to hit them with a blunt weapon to shatter and kill them. Things like that - and of course, not using that same strategy on every single enemy - go a lot into making a turn-based system fun. And while that is more enemy-focused than player-focused, it also means that developers need to equip the players with the toolset diverse enough to pull off these scenarios. I just picture every round of combat as a "second" (or "step") in a battle, and think about how to convey every second as it plays out in combat.
I'm not a great battle designer, but I sure love playing games that excel in that area. In fact, one of the reasons I continue to play RPG Maker games, is because once in a while I'll find a gem where the battle system is so well executed that it keeps me playing it.
And I agree: the whole "MAAAASSIVE SKILL LIST" thing just turns into different flavors of "deal x dmg", or a load of status effects no-one will ever use because they constantly fail.
The first half of this game is a good example of unique skill sets for several characters:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/8688/
I read some post from years ago, either on this site or another, about how to make a turn-based battle system interesting. Someone gave an example, such as having a mini-boss that you have to kill by using a skill that first trips them, which then allows you to freeze them, which then allows another character to hit them with a blunt weapon to shatter and kill them. Things like that - and of course, not using that same strategy on every single enemy - go a lot into making a turn-based system fun. And while that is more enemy-focused than player-focused, it also means that developers need to equip the players with the toolset diverse enough to pull off these scenarios. I just picture every round of combat as a "second" (or "step") in a battle, and think about how to convey every second as it plays out in combat.
I'm not a great battle designer, but I sure love playing games that excel in that area. In fact, one of the reasons I continue to play RPG Maker games, is because once in a while I'll find a gem where the battle system is so well executed that it keeps me playing it.
And I agree: the whole "MAAAASSIVE SKILL LIST" thing just turns into different flavors of "deal x dmg", or a load of status effects no-one will ever use because they constantly fail.
The first half of this game is a good example of unique skill sets for several characters:
https://rpgmaker.net/games/8688/
