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Motivation sapping dungeons/maps... how do you deal with them?
As a designer: I know exactly what you are referring to UPRC, and I personally find constructing convincing towns to be the most difficult type of area; they require an elaborate layout and structure, multiple sub building locations, and a sense of natural activity, all while appearing believable and organized. It is for these reasons that I think a lot of RPGs have very stylized and minimalistic towns; even RPG Maker VX Ace's defaults towns are designed in this way, with small buildings and a simple layout featuring only necessary locations.
My solution to this problem is to think about the town in relation to the rest of the game; this location is necessary, so can I use it for something? Could I have a series of events here which advance the plot? Could I use the opportunity of this town to further the characterization of the protagonists? When I start thinking along those lines, I think of new locations, NPCs, and backstories to add flavour and context to the location, and pretty soon, instead of laying down a bunch of buildings, I'm crafting a unique place with its own sense of identity.
BONUS QUESTION: In general, I find the kind of locations which sap one's enthusiasm are places the designer feels are 'obligatory' to have in their game. This is a common trap for all creative individuals, and is akin to artists copying the works of the masters; you don't feel as though the location is your own idea, because you are copying the template of successful games in the past. My advice is to change one's perspective, and think about how the same basic need can be accomplished in a different way. For example, if you feel the need to put a cave dungeon in a location as an early area for the party to level up in, think about whether or not you could accomplish that same goal in a different way; perhaps the characters could participate in a tournament where they level up, or they could come across the ruins of an ancient civilization with ghosts who task them with various experience-giving quests, or anything you like that accomplishes the same objective. My point is, never sacrifice ingenuity and creativity for the sake of convention.
As a player: I have experienced dungeons or towns in games which are wholly uninteresting to me, and which go on for too long. I have experienced this both in amateur games and professional games, and this sensation is typically caused by a) an excess of random encounters b) an excess of dialogue that isn't directly related to the main plot or the characters c) obvious busywork, such as collecting items, delivering messages, pit traps and switch puzzles. Digressions like these are designed to pad out a game's length, as many RPGs typically advertise their longevity as a selling point. I am usually invested enough in an RPG by the time the first one of these areas rolls around that I am willing to press on, but if the busywork keeps piling up I have on occasion stopped an RPG for good.
BONUS QUESTION: My advice to my fellow designers is again to think about what it is you want to do with the location; no area needs to be a chore to get through, and thinking about a location as such will only rob both you and the player of a better experience. Many people find towns dull, but there is absolutely no reason for them to be; when people gather together in one place all kinds of crazy things happen! Many people design 'throwaway' dungeons designed solely for a fetch quest, when you can do so much with a creepy place full of monsters. Dressing up these locations with interesting events, compelling backstories, challenging puzzles, unique layouts and plenty of opportunities to explore the world you have created will make any boredom disappear surprisingly quickly.
My solution to this problem is to think about the town in relation to the rest of the game; this location is necessary, so can I use it for something? Could I have a series of events here which advance the plot? Could I use the opportunity of this town to further the characterization of the protagonists? When I start thinking along those lines, I think of new locations, NPCs, and backstories to add flavour and context to the location, and pretty soon, instead of laying down a bunch of buildings, I'm crafting a unique place with its own sense of identity.
BONUS QUESTION: In general, I find the kind of locations which sap one's enthusiasm are places the designer feels are 'obligatory' to have in their game. This is a common trap for all creative individuals, and is akin to artists copying the works of the masters; you don't feel as though the location is your own idea, because you are copying the template of successful games in the past. My advice is to change one's perspective, and think about how the same basic need can be accomplished in a different way. For example, if you feel the need to put a cave dungeon in a location as an early area for the party to level up in, think about whether or not you could accomplish that same goal in a different way; perhaps the characters could participate in a tournament where they level up, or they could come across the ruins of an ancient civilization with ghosts who task them with various experience-giving quests, or anything you like that accomplishes the same objective. My point is, never sacrifice ingenuity and creativity for the sake of convention.
As a player: I have experienced dungeons or towns in games which are wholly uninteresting to me, and which go on for too long. I have experienced this both in amateur games and professional games, and this sensation is typically caused by a) an excess of random encounters b) an excess of dialogue that isn't directly related to the main plot or the characters c) obvious busywork, such as collecting items, delivering messages, pit traps and switch puzzles. Digressions like these are designed to pad out a game's length, as many RPGs typically advertise their longevity as a selling point. I am usually invested enough in an RPG by the time the first one of these areas rolls around that I am willing to press on, but if the busywork keeps piling up I have on occasion stopped an RPG for good.
BONUS QUESTION: My advice to my fellow designers is again to think about what it is you want to do with the location; no area needs to be a chore to get through, and thinking about a location as such will only rob both you and the player of a better experience. Many people find towns dull, but there is absolutely no reason for them to be; when people gather together in one place all kinds of crazy things happen! Many people design 'throwaway' dungeons designed solely for a fetch quest, when you can do so much with a creepy place full of monsters. Dressing up these locations with interesting events, compelling backstories, challenging puzzles, unique layouts and plenty of opportunities to explore the world you have created will make any boredom disappear surprisingly quickly.
When does Design overtake Fun?
As you note, this topic is very situational, since every game is going to, ideally, be fun in different ways. However, I can give you my general advice, which is to identify what your game design does well and maximize it as much as possible. If, for example, your game has combo techniques which can be chained for all kinds of effects, try to emphasize situations where that will be relevant. If your game is puzzle heavy, try to implement good brain teasers which provide greater challenges over time. If your game is story-driven, try to get the player invested by having their choices make an impact, etc. Your game can of course do all of these things and do them well, but try to think about your game in terms of what kind of game it is, and who it is for. Place yourself in the player's position and ask, "would I want to play through this section?"
It is also worth noting that delayed gratification is a big part of RPGs, and always has been; whether your game is like a 1980s old school dungeon crawl, or a modern MMO, chances are the player will have to do a great deal of work to have the best items, skills and equipment available. While most players would not consider grinding for these items fun, the satisfaction of having earned them and then being able to use them makes it all worthwhile (without this sense of satisfaction I doubt many people would play MMOs!) When designing such goals, it's important to find the right balance between what is hard work towards a tangible goal, and what is pointless level grinding. There's no perfect answer to this, but it is important to keep the best stuff out of easy reach of the player; the challenge in itself will provide the fun.
It is also worth noting that delayed gratification is a big part of RPGs, and always has been; whether your game is like a 1980s old school dungeon crawl, or a modern MMO, chances are the player will have to do a great deal of work to have the best items, skills and equipment available. While most players would not consider grinding for these items fun, the satisfaction of having earned them and then being able to use them makes it all worthwhile (without this sense of satisfaction I doubt many people would play MMOs!) When designing such goals, it's important to find the right balance between what is hard work towards a tangible goal, and what is pointless level grinding. There's no perfect answer to this, but it is important to keep the best stuff out of easy reach of the player; the challenge in itself will provide the fun.
The Screenshot Topic Returns
They are SO good, they don't even need to face their opponents!
(Nice menu system by the way; I particularly like the '+'-shaped bullets on the side.)
(Nice menu system by the way; I particularly like the '+'-shaped bullets on the side.)
The Screenshot Topic Returns
Your comment made me curious about the subject, Liberty, so I did a bit of research; apparently, the orientation of external and internal door knobs are dictated by right hand and left hand instillation:
http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/2784/how-do-you-determine-if-a-door-is-right-handed-rh-or-left-handed-lh
Both styles do indeed exist and are perfectly valid for external doors; it seems I have may have simply been exposed to one type predominantly. In other words, I must retract my criticism!
http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/2784/how-do-you-determine-if-a-door-is-right-handed-rh-or-left-handed-lh
Both styles do indeed exist and are perfectly valid for external doors; it seems I have may have simply been exposed to one type predominantly. In other words, I must retract my criticism!
How big is too big?
At the moment I'm stuggling with the issue of file size; my game won't use the RTP, which will end up making it rather large by itself, but I'm also considering having the original score in MP3 and not OGG.
Why not OGG? Well, I've found that whenever I use midi or OGG files the game engine of RPG Maker VX Ace tends to 'stutter', not as badly as XP used to, but still noticeably. This is not the case when I use MP3 files, so in the interest of gameplay I'd rather use MP3s, but I have to be careful with how many tracks I create.
Why not OGG? Well, I've found that whenever I use midi or OGG files the game engine of RPG Maker VX Ace tends to 'stutter', not as badly as XP used to, but still noticeably. This is not the case when I use MP3 files, so in the interest of gameplay I'd rather use MP3s, but I have to be careful with how many tracks I create.
The Screenshot Topic Returns
@Mr. Nemo
Gorgeous work. In addition to everything else, the ceiling overlay is fantastic.
@Necromus
I like it, though the position of the windows on the houses looks a little odd. You may want to consider centering the door in the middle of the buildings, and have some dividing indication between a first and second floor.
@Deacon Batista
Great use of the tileset. My only complaint is that the house on the upper right is showing more of its backside than the house on the lower right, making the perspective look off (I know that in the real world a roof lower to the ground would show more, but RPG Maker games use a 2d forced perspective). It's also missing the back ridge of the other house.
@Liberty
A nice looking busy town! This is minor, but typically external doors have the door knob on the right side, whereas indoor doors have the door knob facing the left. I wouldn't bring this up except for the fact that the external doors seem to mix and match right and left sided doors.
@Adon237
The lights are cool, but they make the text a bit hard to read. For any kind of cutscene like that, consider centering the text in the middle of the screen and enlarging it against a dark background.
I agree with LockeZ that long exposition of any kind can easily become tedious. It can be interesting, however, when the player influences how the exposition is given in some way. Consider having the exposition broken up with questions to the player that influence the story, or have the player move around a bit during these parts to see the next bit of information.
I know I haven't posted any new screenshots in a long time guys, but I am still working hard on my game and I will have a lot of stuff to show you once I've put all the effects and whatnot in place. I mention this only to avoid seeming hypocritical for offering critique of your screenshots without posting my own.
Gorgeous work. In addition to everything else, the ceiling overlay is fantastic.
@Necromus
I like it, though the position of the windows on the houses looks a little odd. You may want to consider centering the door in the middle of the buildings, and have some dividing indication between a first and second floor.
@Deacon Batista
Great use of the tileset. My only complaint is that the house on the upper right is showing more of its backside than the house on the lower right, making the perspective look off (I know that in the real world a roof lower to the ground would show more, but RPG Maker games use a 2d forced perspective). It's also missing the back ridge of the other house.
@Liberty
A nice looking busy town! This is minor, but typically external doors have the door knob on the right side, whereas indoor doors have the door knob facing the left. I wouldn't bring this up except for the fact that the external doors seem to mix and match right and left sided doors.
@Adon237
The lights are cool, but they make the text a bit hard to read. For any kind of cutscene like that, consider centering the text in the middle of the screen and enlarging it against a dark background.
I agree with LockeZ that long exposition of any kind can easily become tedious. It can be interesting, however, when the player influences how the exposition is given in some way. Consider having the exposition broken up with questions to the player that influence the story, or have the player move around a bit during these parts to see the next bit of information.
I know I haven't posted any new screenshots in a long time guys, but I am still working hard on my game and I will have a lot of stuff to show you once I've put all the effects and whatnot in place. I mention this only to avoid seeming hypocritical for offering critique of your screenshots without posting my own.
Your future RMN overlord
'Postmodern' RM Games
I'll go ahead and be (regrettably) pretentious by explaining, as succinctly as I can, the apparent differences between postmodernism and surrealism.
In essence, post modernism is a rejection of cultural and social assumptions of objective reality, claiming that all experiences are relative and, thus, all views of the world are subjective. It's implementation varies greatly across medias, but the fundamental idea is to draw attention to conventions and assumptions.
Surrealism is an artistic style which uses non sequitur, juxtaposition, and a view of reality that is in contrast to what is readily apparent, yet nevertheless reveals something new about that reality. As you can tell, the two are closely related, as both were born out of 20th century disillusionment with cultural norms and both are used as tools to criticize customs and established modes of thought (one of the primary duties of all artists).
There is no universally agreed upon definition for either term, but the above seems to generally be the consensus.
Metal Gear Solid 2 'broke the 4th wall' and deconstructed itself and its ideas at the end, which can legitimately be called postmodern, especially in light of its social criticism. It went from being a game that the player was playing to a treatise on society as a whole, and, to be honest, I rather liked that twist ending.
In essence, post modernism is a rejection of cultural and social assumptions of objective reality, claiming that all experiences are relative and, thus, all views of the world are subjective. It's implementation varies greatly across medias, but the fundamental idea is to draw attention to conventions and assumptions.
Surrealism is an artistic style which uses non sequitur, juxtaposition, and a view of reality that is in contrast to what is readily apparent, yet nevertheless reveals something new about that reality. As you can tell, the two are closely related, as both were born out of 20th century disillusionment with cultural norms and both are used as tools to criticize customs and established modes of thought (one of the primary duties of all artists).
There is no universally agreed upon definition for either term, but the above seems to generally be the consensus.
Metal Gear Solid 2 'broke the 4th wall' and deconstructed itself and its ideas at the end, which can legitimately be called postmodern, especially in light of its social criticism. It went from being a game that the player was playing to a treatise on society as a whole, and, to be honest, I rather liked that twist ending.
Hello... is everyone gone?
Cap'n Levels
Awww, I like you guys too. :)
And yeah, while I did like 12's story, characters, music and art style, it's gameplay...had some issues. Very early in that game I came across a winning strategy of healing and attacking that I almost never had to even modify throughout the regular game. Good design is generally one which makes use of all the abilities available to a player, in my opinion.
And yeah, while I did like 12's story, characters, music and art style, it's gameplay...had some issues. Very early in that game I came across a winning strategy of healing and attacking that I almost never had to even modify throughout the regular game. Good design is generally one which makes use of all the abilities available to a player, in my opinion.
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