RAOUL589'S PROFILE

author=Xenomic
Yes, I know there's a Help file. No, Vista (and apparently Windows 8) doesn't open the Help file so I can't look at it.

Anywho, this is concerning the Conditions tab, and the "% chance to recover each turn". Now, I'm assuming setting this to 0% makes it so that it doesn't recover at all (until the "Condition always abates after X turns" has been done). However, I am not 100% positive on this, as I have statuses that lasts 20 turns and set to 100% chance to recover, and they last the entire 20 turns (from what I know anyways). Can someone clarify to me exactly what this does at all? I want to make sure that statuses that are meant to stick around, stick around (well, I can do that by setting both % chance and turns abate to 0, but I mean if I have Regen last 20 turns, I want it to last 20 turns and not just randomly go away).


Actually, maybe it'd be nice if someone had a tutorial or file like this in their locker or on the site. Would make it a lot easier to find data on this for those who can't use the Help file like myself, but I know that'd be a lot of work to do...

You can open old help files if you download the old help file reader:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607

I remember having that problem a while back.

I don't know the answer to your specific question myself, so I can't answer that directly.

author=Liberty
You can make a topic too, if you want to get your exact answer. Go for it.

I don't care about an exact answer. I'm just observing that your poll doesn't refute my claims.

author=Liberty
Many games I've checked when it came to screens vs quality tended to be as I thought they would via checking out the screens. Not to say that there weren't some which didn't indicate the quality within, but most of the time they're a very good indication.

I bet everything you just said would be true of download count as well. Note that you said many, not all. The same would also be true for every other factor on your poll.

author=Liberty
And if you say you don't look at a game's graphics before choosing to play or not you're flat out lying.

Where did I say this?

author=alterego

author=Raoul589
The numbers of signatures in the guestbook is certainly a better measure of the quality of the building than how good the logo on the front of the building is. In fact, if you were allowed to only know one thing about a building, the number of people who visit it each day is probably one of the most predictive measures.

That's silly. The building could be a Movie Theater or a Prison. People would naturally want to visit one more than the other. But when an Earthquake hits, the one building left standing is the better one. Number of visits be damned...

You're unwittingly aiding my point by taking that pot-shot about the logo in a building. You're right about it. But just like with the number of visits, the logo would also not be the direct responsibility of the Architect, but of the Graphic Designer in that case.

What you are actually talking about, then, is a structural engineer, not an architect, which changes the thought experiment. If we are going to define 'better' as 'more likely to withstand an earthquake' then guestbook numbers aren't going to tell us much. If we define 'better' as 'building that is nicer to be in' or 'building that people like' or 'building that attracts people' then guestbook numbers tell us a lot.

author=alterego
The fact that you keep insisting that all these efforts are inferior or equal to download counts, is mind-blowing!

See if you can find anywhere where I said this. 'I got this general impression when I jumped on the bandwagon' doesn't count.

author=MoonCanvas
There's a file in your resource manager labeled "Window", it seems to be on default. That is unacceptable. Go get an image for a system window, label it "Window" and then export it into your system folder.

I actually had already changed the window skin, but I am grateful for the intention behind what you did. I really mean this. Thank you.

I do find it a little bit depressing that people would judge my game as amateurish just because I use the default window skin in a screenshot. After all, how hard is it to change one file in the project folder? It would be the first thing I would do if I was trying to spruce up a crappy game. The next thing I would do is put in a gimmicky lighting system (my most popular script in another forum), and then I would swap out the default tiles for someone else's custom tiles. It disgusts me how easy it would be to take the crappiest game and make the screenshots look good. I don't think my game is crappy, so I didn't concern myself too much. I see now this was a strategic mistake.

The honest truth is that I had assumed that people would be concentrating on the fact that that screenshot clearly demonstrates a scripted custom window system and a description of a non-generic, interesting spell and the fact that the player gets to choose these spells himself. Honestly, I (naively, apparently) thought that all these other things going on would be more important to a prospective player than whether I changed the default window skin. Each screenshot demonstrates a feature:

http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31884/
Where is the player? Hang on, is he that mouse?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP')

http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31882/
Oh look, unique spells. I wonder what it's like to control the blade? I wonder what 'blood pact' does?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP. Ugh, default window skin.')

http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31881/
Hmm... the player is stuck. I wonder how that puzzle works?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')

http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/29212/
Look, boss fights!
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')

As I said, this was clearly a strategic mistake, but knowing it does not make it less depressing to me.

author=Shoobinator
Really take advice from these people and internalize it.

You should only internalize advice that is good advice. Good advice comes with evidence and reasoned argument. Poor advice comes with pulling rank.

author=Shoobinator
They are a great community and have a lot to offer.

The people who have posted in this thread don't constitute 'the community', they are merely some of the highest status members of the community. I care just as much about the opinions of someone who has 0 points under their avatar as someone who has 10,000. Ironically, I view status points in exactly the same way as everyone here claims to view download count. The same goes for whether you are a moderator. These things do not make your claims any more or any less factually accurate.

author=Shoobinator
For the record, I recognize that # of downloads is a factor that can influence future downloads, but that does not dismiss the above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect

Thank you for finding that Wikipedia article for me. I have been trying to think of what the name of the effect was.

I address this to everyone on this thread: it is easy to consider your argument watertight when you're backed up by twenty people who are all jeering at your opponent. The true test comes when the situation is reversed. I am thoroughly sick of this topic, and it has made me quite unhappy. I'm now going to think carefully about whether or not I should withdraw from this community entirely, or whether I should drop back to the sidelines and just help people whoever deserves my help. This is not a threat, and I don't care whether or not you any of you care about my decision.

author=Liberty
If you were told that no game you ever made from now would ever be played by anyone, would you still make your next game?Fuck yes. Because gam mak is fucking fun. I have quite a number of projects I've started that I'll never show off because I either don't want to or just haven't got enough to show (and never will). I still mess around with them from time to time, too, because, hell, it's fun to do so.


Also, I'd like to refer you to THIS TOPIC which might help you get over your love of download numbers as a base of being able to tell what's best or not.

Also, check out a little game called Final Tear 3 and tell me if it warrants the amount of downloads it has or not. Be prepared - it takes 20 hours before the story 'gets good' or so the author says.



Also: Think MacDonalds = download count. It may get a lot of people through the gates but that doesn't make it quality food now, does it? Just trashy shit that tastes good and is fast to nom. Can't compare to an expensive 5-star meal. Just chew on that for a bit, eh~

This survey does not actually answer my claim, because I have not claimed that number of downloads is the deciding factor, only that it is a factor. For instance, if I did the survey (and I'm the guy who you're proving wrong, remember?) I would not choose downloads; I would choose reviews. LockeZ is a voice of reason here:

author=LockeZ
This would be better as a vote with multiple answers. Maybe a ranking. I mean, no one cares more about the presentation and visual quality of the page that the game is hosted on than they do about the presentation and visual quality of the game itself. So that's never gonna get any votes, except possibly just to spite me for posting this. But that doesn't mean it's not a major factor on some people's lists.

Also, page presentation, hype, and several others of these things are more subconscious influences than conscious ones. We're told not to judge a book by its cover and not to pay attention to hype, and we claim we don't, and we try not to, but we do it anyway by accident sometimes.

However, the survey does constitute some small amount of weak evidence for your claim.

Before taking this survey too seriously, I would want to see an effort to reduce response bias (see the second paragraph of LockeZ's comment), as well as non-response bias, which is a confusingly named but distinct concept (where are the responses from people who don't have an account on this site, but who come here to download games?). I would also want to see a statistically significant sample size.

However, if you did mitigate these statistical problems and the distribution still came out as it is now, I would change my mind about download count being a factor in other people - on this site, at least - deciding whether to play a game. That is if you did a proper survey, which I am fairly confident that you will not make the effort to do.

In such a situation, I would still hold this claim: download count is important to me as well as many other people as a measure of how many people have played their games. This would remain as my primary reason for caring about download count. I don't think it is particularly noble that you make games only for your own pleasure. I don't particularly like making games; I make them anyway for the benefit of others. I don't see why you consider this such a suspicious motive. Make fun of my efforts to provide good games to others all you like; this isn't some sort of morally reprehensible motive.

The second thing I would do if the results truly came out in this way would be to cease involvement with this site. I am not interested in focusing my efforts on making pretty screenshots and networking. Perhaps you don't find it distressing that almost no one voted for 'game description', 'comments', 'score', 'reviews', or 'features', but I do. Personally, I think that you should be ashamed, not proud, if you do a proper survey and find that by far the greatest consideration of the community is screenshots. It is they that are the equivalent of a meal at McDonalds.

author=Link_2112
you didn't outright say "downloads are extremely important" but you are suggesting it with things like

All games get only a passing glance by default. There are three ways that someone is going to decide to play a game. A good recommendation, good presentation, or high downloads. Pretend that the last one is not true all you like.

I understand you all have a very low opinion of me by now, but my claims are only these:

◾The number of downloads is the most accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game.
◾Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.
◾Therefore, you do care about how many downloads your game has.

I don't have a low opinion of you. that is yet another thing you are incorrectly assuming.

I make games because I like making games. if it becomes popular, then it's only a bonus.

Please tell me. Can you select a single sentence that you have just quoted that you disagree with?

Do you agree with the first two dot-points? Take the first dot point. Can you think of any more accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game, other than number of downloads (It's not enough just to say that download count is an imperfect measure)?

Take the second dot point. What is your primary motive for making games? If you were told that no game you ever made from now would ever be played by anyone, would you still make your next game?

The three dot-points together form a valid argument, which means that if you accept the first two dot-points, which are the premises, you cannot refuse to accept the conclusion. You must show which premise is false, or show that the argument is invalid, or accept the conclusion.

Again,

author=Raoul589
Whether you like it or not and whether you admit it or not, there must exist some percentile p for which you - not the community, but you - think that p% of the games on this site are not as good as your most recent game.

This is strictly and mathematically true. It is true for you. It is true for me. It is true for Liberty as well. It cannot be otherwise. Read it carefully and literally and stop trying to extract hidden meaning from what I have written.

author=Link_2112
like you have everything figured out. and everybody is the same as the model player you have in your mind.

well...heh whether you like it or not, you're wrong. not completely wrong in that some people do care only about the things you are talking about. but wrong in thinking that everybody is that way and these are the only things that matter to everybody.

I did not say that everyone is the same. I did not say it because I do not think it. It is enough that many people fit the model that I describe. That is, the model of a player who takes into consideration number of downloads when deciding the next game that he or she will play. I would also expect this average player to be reluctant to admit he takes into account download count because it is not a flattering thing to admit (as evidenced by the response I have received, here).

author=Link_2112
you didn't outright say "downloads are extremely important" ...

That's right, I didn't. In fact, I said the opposite (emphasis added):

author=Raoul589
Please notice that not once did I say that download numbers were particularly important (I really didn't, and I didn't say it because I don't think it), nor did I say that I judged my game or any other as crap just because it had low dowloads. Obviously, if 35 more people come along and download my game, it doesn't become 10% better. The point is - and this is true whether we like it or not, and personally, I don't like it - that people do decide which game to play next at least partially on the basis of downloads.

The fact is that a person who comes to this site has a choice of about 850 completed games to play. They do not have the time or interest to give every one of these games a fair chance. They have limited information with which to make a decision. So they might reason as follows:

• This game has an intriguing description. I'll try this one.

• This game has had good reviews. I'll try this one.

• This game has won a Misao. I'll try this one.

• This game has nice screenshots. I'll try this one.

• This game has a high download count. I'll try this one.

Any one of those is a shallow basis on which to judge a game. But these (types of information) are the only information a prospective player has to go on.

Now, maybe you would say that 'people who decide what game to play based on downloads are shallow. They should decide based on other measures'.

Personally, I can say without exaggeration that I feel exactly the same way about people who decide which game to play based on screenshots. It's exactly the same sort of shallow basis on which to decide the worth of a game.

Take - as an example - a couple of the reasons why Liberty 'wouldn't download my game':

author=Liberty
- The presentation is balls. Well, not balls exactly but it's not interesting either. Kentona recently released some CSS in the CSS article (found in the article section, of course) that you can use on your page to spruce it up a bit. Of course, editing it yourself to make it look like you want and fit with the theme of the game is a good idea too.

- Your logo isn't all that inspiring... a branch. Wow. Screams 'Top Quality game' doesn't it? You could whip up something better than that or at least ask someone else to. That's part of what the help forums are for. Or even a request blog (do that instead. It shows up in the help forum anyway.)

Please, please just take a few seconds to reflect on the above two statements. I'll give you time.

...

Seriously? Is whether or not I chose to use someone else's CSS layout (you mentioned the CSS as well) actually a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?

Is the quality of my logo really a more predictive measure of the quality of my game than number of downloads?

Or, let's look at a few things you said:

author=Link_2112
I've never heard of you or you're game. I've never heard you talk about it or anybody else talk about it. I've never seen it on the frontpage. Although I haven't been around much in the last 2 months, you're game has been out for longer than that. you probably never took part in any events, posted on others games, or even participated in forum topic conversations. I don't recognize your username or avatar.

So the fact that you have never heard of me is predictive of the quality of my game? I can honestly say that I was genuinely hurt by this paragraph. I actually have been involved in the community in small ways. I have responded to questions in these very help forums. I have reviewed a game. I have commented on a number of game pages. I have beta tested another person's game. I have downloaded and played a number of completed and uncompleted games (literally chosen with a random number generator, not chosen by number of downloads) (EDIT: and in case you're thinking it: I did these things long before submitting my game). But I guess since you have never heard of me, you shouldn't try my game. Please think carefully. This is what you are implicitly claiming. Even had I had no activity in this community before releasing my game, and I had signed up specifically to submit it, should I be 'punished' for not having been an active community member by having few people try my game? What a way to welcome newer members into the fold.

author=Link_2112
The first screen shows a lifeless town layout, default window skin, default font(is that default?), default faceset, default sprites, default everything. I could be wrong because im not familiar with VX games, but it LOOKS default and plain.

Judging that my game must not be worth playing because it mostly uses default art is shallow also. Shallow, like download count.

author=Link_2112
The dungeon looking maps are ok, but nothing outstanding. Same old VX looking graphics, which I personally don't like.

Then desert map, which looks like a fighting area. It's big and bland. It's not awful, but it's nothing special!

Then the dragon fight...the layout of the room is random and non-functional as a map. Where's the door? even if it's a closed space for fighting, have a way in and lock it. the boxes and shelf are randomly placed to make it not look like an empty square. those are just the default tiles available so you used them. The HP displays are basic bars of color with no text!! how can that be considered top 10% of quality?

The mapping design choices for those maps actually are correct in the context of the game. They may not make for pretty screenshots, but you would not thank me as a player if you couldn't fight or solve puzzles in those maps because there was random crap in the way so that the screenshot looked better.

But the point is this: you couldn't possibly know that as a prospective player, and I can't blame you for it. You have limited information when you choose whether to download my game, and you have to decide based on the limited information you have. One of those pieces of information is number of downloads.

The fact is that someone choosing a game to play has limited information about that game before they have downloaded it. Number of downloads is an indirect measure of quality, just like presentation style and logo design.

Now, I think my game is a good game. I would like lots of people to play it, because I think that most of them would enjoy it. I'm not ashamed of that. So, I want to increase the likelihood that people will download my game, because they can't experience my game unless they have downloaded it. It is necessary for people to download my (or any) game before they can experience it.


Let me restate what I have said and what I think, absolutely unambiguously:

• I don't think that number of downloads is a direct measure of quality.

• I want people to play my games, and I am not ashamed of this. I would like lots of people to play my games. I make games that I think are good so that other people can enjoy them because I care about other people. I am not interested in making a game that no one will play. Some people playing is a better outcome than no people, and more people playing is better than fewer people (everything else being equal).

• People cannot play my games unless they first download them. Therefore, I want many people to download my games, and I am not ashamed of this.

• As a related point, but not to be confused with the previous point, at least some people base their choice of whether to play a game on how many downloads a game has had. People choosing which game to play have limited time and limited information. Using download count as an indirect measure of quality is not more shallow than deciding based on logo design or CSS style or screenshots or whether default VX art is used.

• Because of this related point, I also care about download count to the extent that it will influence whether new people will download my game (a necessary pre-condition for their experiencing it.)

Please, please if you are going to reply to this, reply to what I am actually saying, not what you guess that I mean. I am not making this request rhetorically; I really mean it as a genuine request.

author=Liberty
This only tells you how many downloads you have.

Exactly. Did I ever make any other claim?

author=Link_2112
Raoul, you should listen to what Liberty is saying. She has been around the RM scene for a long time and she is right.

What part, exactly? What is she right about, and on what basis do you make that claim? What deep lesson is it that I'm supposed to be learning from Liberty? Despite what she says, I have read every word that she has written, and since her second post I have found nothing but a series of vacuous statements. See if you can find the profound passages that are supposed to change my outlook on everything.

author=kory_toombs
That isn't a very effective way of ranking your game.

Actually, It's a 100% accurate way of ranking how many times a game has been downloaded relative to other games. I mistook your question for a factual one, and now I realise that it was rhetorical.

author=kory_toombs
The way you have determined the value of your game is actually
not a true value of your games worth.

How do you think I have determined the value of my game? I asked how I could get more downloads, not how I could value my game more. I have already said that I value my own game highly, which is why I would have liked more people to have experienced it. However, my statement that I think my game is really good seems to be precisely what has attracted everyone's ire in the first place.

author=Liberty
Just for the record, the best way to tell how your game fares against the rest on the site is the stars system we currently have.

I don't think that's true. I could go to any game with no reviews right now, give it a 2 star review, and almost no one would ever look at it again. The requirement to review a game in order to rate it puts up such a high barrier that only the most motivated community member will write a review. Here are some statistics:

• Hero's Realm (the most reviewed game) has been downloaded 20,608 times, and reviewed 15 times, which means that 0.07% of the people who have played Hero's Realm have rated it.

• Legionwood (the most downloaded game) has been downloaded 22,382 times, and reviewed 5 times, which means that 0.02% of the people who have played Legionwood have rated it.

Notice two things. I could go right now and submit a single five star review of Legionwood, ands its rating would go up from 3.5 to 3.75. If I did this twice more (with fake accounts), the rating would go up to 4. Doesn't it seem at least a little strange that I (read: some random moron) can have such a massive amount of influence over the rating of a game? What about what the other 22,377 people (99.98%) who downloaded the game but didn't review it? Where are their opinions reflected?

But hey, I guess since my own game got 4 stars and

author=Liberty
.. the best way to tell how your game fares against the rest on the site is the stars system we currently have

and

author=Liberty
Downloads =/= good game

my game is better than Legionwood, right?

Please notice that not once did I say that download numbers were particularly important, nor did I say that I judged my game or any other as crap just because it had low dowloads. Obviously, if 35 more people come along and download my game, it doesn't become 10% better. The point is - and this is true whether we like it or not, and personally, I don't like it - that people do decide which game to play next at least partially on the basis of downloads.

Take Legionwood. I remember playing Legionwood a year or so ago. Did I play it because of its great presentation (Have a look here)? Hmmm. Its fantastic 3.5 star rating? Hmmm. I tried it precisely because of its high download count. You can only pretend that I am some exceptional case if you are feeling particularly dishonest. All of you talk about how poor the presentation of my game is on this site. This is completely true and I totally understand what you are all saying about that (this, I have learned from all of you). However, ask yourselves - and do try to be honest with yourselves - if my game had 10,000 downloads, don't you think you might have been more inclined to look past the poor presentation, and try the game anyway?

From this thread, I have learned:

All games get only a passing glance by default. There are three ways that someone is going to decide to play a game. A good recommendation, good presentation, or high downloads. Pretend that the last one is not true all you like.

I understand you all have a very low opinion of me by now, but my claims are only these:

• The number of downloads is the most accurate measure of the number of people who have had the chance to experience your game.

• Presumably, you make games in order for people to experience them.

• Therefore, you do care about how many downloads your game has.