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Nomic (main game topic, new ruleset for easier play)
Rules:
Game Zero, initial rules:
1) (The Official Roster)
The Order of the Players is:
Adon237
CyberDagger
Fugue
ivoryjones
Jeroen_Sol
MirrorMasq
Shinan
UPRC
The Official Scribe is Trihan.
2) (Order of Play)
Order of play proceeds down the roster, circularly. So first it
is the turn of the first person on the roster, then the second,
then later on the last, then the first again, and so on, until
the game is over.
3) (Passing)
When it is a player's turn, that player may pass, by notifying the
Scribe that he is doing so via PM. The Scribe shall record this passing
in the main game topic, and play proceeds to the next player in
order (see Order of Play).
4) (Not Passing)
When it is a player's turn, and that player does not elect to pass,
he must propose a change to the rules. To do this, he PMs to
the scribe the text of the proposed change, stated clearly and
unambiguously. A proposed change may be either a modification or
repeal of an existing rule, or a new rule. Once a proposal is
made, it must be acted upon (see Acting Upon Proposals) before
play proceeds to the next player.
5) (Acting Upon Proposals)
When a player transmits a proposed change to the scribe, the scribe
must post the proposal in the main game topic. Then each player
must vote Yeah, Nay, Abstain, or any other word, by notifying the
scribe that he is voting via PM (the notification must clearly state
the proposal being voted on, and the word of the vote). Once
each player has voted, the scribe tallies the votes and announces
them (saying who voted how for each player). If there are more votes
of Yeah than any other words besides Abstain, the proposal is adopted,
and the corresponding changes made to the rules (the changes do not
actually take effect until the instant after play passes to the
next player). Otherwise, the proposal is not adopted. In either
case, play passes to the next player (see Order of Play).
6) (Resolving Disputes)
All disputes shall be resolved in good faith by the Scribe, whose
word is final. Trust the Scribe; the Scribe is your friend. (Note
that disputes generally suggest the need for proposals to add or
clarify rules to avoid the dispute happening again.)
7) (Stone, Paper, Scissors)
a) Stone breaks scissors
b) Scissors cut paper
c) Paper wraps stone
8) (Unnamed rule)
Whenever a player's rule proposal is accepted, that player gains 10 points.
1) (The Official Roster)
The Order of the Players is:
Adon237
CyberDagger
Fugue
ivoryjones
Jeroen_Sol
MirrorMasq
Shinan
UPRC
The Official Scribe is Trihan.
2) (Order of Play)
Order of play proceeds down the roster, circularly. So first it
is the turn of the first person on the roster, then the second,
then later on the last, then the first again, and so on, until
the game is over.
3) (Passing)
When it is a player's turn, that player may pass, by notifying the
Scribe that he is doing so via PM. The Scribe shall record this passing
in the main game topic, and play proceeds to the next player in
order (see Order of Play).
4) (Not Passing)
When it is a player's turn, and that player does not elect to pass,
he must propose a change to the rules. To do this, he PMs to
the scribe the text of the proposed change, stated clearly and
unambiguously. A proposed change may be either a modification or
repeal of an existing rule, or a new rule. Once a proposal is
made, it must be acted upon (see Acting Upon Proposals) before
play proceeds to the next player.
5) (Acting Upon Proposals)
When a player transmits a proposed change to the scribe, the scribe
must post the proposal in the main game topic. Then each player
must vote Yeah, Nay, Abstain, or any other word, by notifying the
scribe that he is voting via PM (the notification must clearly state
the proposal being voted on, and the word of the vote). Once
each player has voted, the scribe tallies the votes and announces
them (saying who voted how for each player). If there are more votes
of Yeah than any other words besides Abstain, the proposal is adopted,
and the corresponding changes made to the rules (the changes do not
actually take effect until the instant after play passes to the
next player). Otherwise, the proposal is not adopted. In either
case, play passes to the next player (see Order of Play).
6) (Resolving Disputes)
All disputes shall be resolved in good faith by the Scribe, whose
word is final. Trust the Scribe; the Scribe is your friend. (Note
that disputes generally suggest the need for proposals to add or
clarify rules to avoid the dispute happening again.)
7) (Stone, Paper, Scissors)
a) Stone breaks scissors
b) Scissors cut paper
c) Paper wraps stone
8) (Unnamed rule)
Whenever a player's rule proposal is accepted, that player gains 10 points.
Top bar does weird things when mobile browsing.
On the few occasions I've been on RMN while I was out and about and my only source of interwebs was my phone, I've noticed that when you zoom in (so that you can actually read the text) the top bar doesn't seem to scale the same way, to the point where it's overlaying text. I also find that when zoomed in you can't scroll pages properly to enter text on a post.
Nomic, because why the hell not? [Sign-ups only, now closed]
I propose that we begin a game of Nomic.
For those who don't know what Nomic is, to put it simply it's a game where the rules are to change the rules of the game. There will be an initial set of rules, some immutable (can't be changed) and some mutable, which can have changes freely proposed.
Turns progress alphabetically by username (though this too can be changed by a rule proposal) and on your turn you may add a new mutable rule, amend a mutable rule, repeal a mutable rule, change a rule from mutable to immutable, or change a rule from immutable to mutable. This is done via proposal and then voted on by players, with a majority vote for meaning the proposal passes (which can be changed by a proposal)
The initial win condition is to accumulate 100 points by whatever points-scoring mechanism is provided by the initial ruleset, though as with all the other rules this can be changed.
It might sound a bit bureaucratic and boring, but trust me when I say this game can quickly become complete craziness with a few rule changes, especially if you think outside the box and try to game the system.
If you're interested let me know. If I get, say, 8 people who want to play I'll go ahead and run it.
CURRENT SIGNUPS (in turn order):
Adon237
CyberDagger
Fugue
Jeroen_Sol
MirrorMasq
Shinan
UPRC
For those who don't know what Nomic is, to put it simply it's a game where the rules are to change the rules of the game. There will be an initial set of rules, some immutable (can't be changed) and some mutable, which can have changes freely proposed.
Turns progress alphabetically by username (though this too can be changed by a rule proposal) and on your turn you may add a new mutable rule, amend a mutable rule, repeal a mutable rule, change a rule from mutable to immutable, or change a rule from immutable to mutable. This is done via proposal and then voted on by players, with a majority vote for meaning the proposal passes (which can be changed by a proposal)
The initial win condition is to accumulate 100 points by whatever points-scoring mechanism is provided by the initial ruleset, though as with all the other rules this can be changed.
It might sound a bit bureaucratic and boring, but trust me when I say this game can quickly become complete craziness with a few rule changes, especially if you think outside the box and try to game the system.
If you're interested let me know. If I get, say, 8 people who want to play I'll go ahead and run it.
CURRENT SIGNUPS (in turn order):
Adon237
CyberDagger
Fugue
Jeroen_Sol
MirrorMasq
Shinan
UPRC
Trihan's all-purpose writing thingy
Okay, here's the deal. I write, and I like writing. Now and again I try to keep the old literary muscle in shape by challenging myself in various ways. One way I do this is in doing writing challenges without knowing ahead of time what they're going to be, and that's where you guys come in.
My focus at the moment will be poems and parody songs. If you want me to do a poem, give me a subject and a style. If you want me to do a parody song, tell me which song you want me to write a parody of (and optionally the subject of the parody). I'll tackle these in the order people post them (assuming anyone posts).
Hit me!
My focus at the moment will be poems and parody songs. If you want me to do a poem, give me a subject and a style. If you want me to do a parody song, tell me which song you want me to write a parody of (and optionally the subject of the parody). I'll tackle these in the order people post them (assuming anyone posts).
Hit me!
Logic in games - where do you draw the line?
The primary focus of this topic is going to be on NPC dialogue, though I'll touch on other aspects as well.
The question at hand is, how much logic is too much logic when it comes to deciding what your NPCs are going to say? To put it another way, I've decided that it's time to get serious about working on Tundra and one of my goals is not to have anything in the game that I can't logically explain in the context of the world I've created.
Which means I can't really take the traditional approach to NPC dialogue, because people you randomly meet in the street are pretty unlikely to blurt out that the magical macguffin of +1 awesomeness is located in that cave to the northeast that you should never ever go to.
What they are more likely to do is ask you why you're bothering them and then ignore your requests for information on the black-caped man.
However, this presents somewhat of a quandary since NPCs who tell you to get out of their faces and mind your own business don't make for a very fun or immersive experience. So I'm stuck trying to find a middle ground here.
My first idea was to allow the player to choose what they say to NPCs; this would require each NPC, however minor, to have some kind of "relationship" counter with the party which would determine how they react to you based on how you've been treating them. Which is awesome on paper but results in a shitload of mostly inconsequential variables for very little reward, as players generally don't give a shit what NPCs say in games.
My next idea was kind of an offshoot of this: the party (such as it is) will start out pretty much unknown (save for people who already know them; some NPCs will react differently to party members if they're, say, from the same town. I've never understood why NPCs have stock phrases when you're talking to them with someone who you recruited in the same town as them and presumably are either acquaintances or friends). Through the actions you take, the quests you do and whatnot, the party will gradually grow (in)famous, and the NPCs you help/hinder will tell tales of your exploits to other people, which will affect how they view you and subsequently the way they speak to you. This is an improvement upon the first idea, but still contains the same basic flaws.
I'm not even sure if it's possible to consolidate the conflicting facts that boring NPCs are useless and nobody really cares what NPCs say if they don't directly further the plot. I want to make "realistic" people in my world, but at the same time it's not really worth putting the effort in if nobody's really going to talk to them.
I've come up with some pretty crazy ideas that just wouldn't work in execution, actually--probably one of my most ambitious was to plan out a "storyline" for EVERY NPC IN THE GAME. So whenever you go to a town or whatever, everyone there is progressing through their own narratives and you'll see as much or as little of their individual adventures as you care to witness. This could be something as mundane as taking care of the kids to an NPC who's on a completely different quest to you and gathers their own groups of adventurers to go and accomplish it. You could see them in various places doing their thing and even choose to help them if you meet them at key points in their journey.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on how to keep NPCs and their dialogue fresh enough to not be mundane without requiring an amount of work and effort that isn't worth the gain you'll get from it in terms of the game itself?
This could apply to other aspects of the game as well. It's not "logical" to carry the kind of item list that most traditional RPGs have, but it's restrictive and potentially damaging to limit the player's inventory to something more realistic to what the group could actually carry. Do you value suspension of disbelief higher and have a portable shared inventory with no limit? (well, beyond the usual 99) or do you think that realistic simulations of what could actually be carried could have a place in a jRPG style game?
Same sort of thing with treasures. Unless there's a given reason for it (and there have been RM games that explained the treasure chests and stuff really well--see Master of the Wind for an excellent example that's blended seamlessly with the plot along with the saving mechanic) there's no justification for just having random chests full of money and items dotted around the world. They'd have been picked clean long ago by people who explored those places before you. And if you're the first to explore said place, who put the chests there?
At the same time, I find myself worrying that if I -don't- put random chests everywhere, people will think there isn't enough reward for exploring maps.
The question at hand is, how much logic is too much logic when it comes to deciding what your NPCs are going to say? To put it another way, I've decided that it's time to get serious about working on Tundra and one of my goals is not to have anything in the game that I can't logically explain in the context of the world I've created.
Which means I can't really take the traditional approach to NPC dialogue, because people you randomly meet in the street are pretty unlikely to blurt out that the magical macguffin of +1 awesomeness is located in that cave to the northeast that you should never ever go to.
What they are more likely to do is ask you why you're bothering them and then ignore your requests for information on the black-caped man.
However, this presents somewhat of a quandary since NPCs who tell you to get out of their faces and mind your own business don't make for a very fun or immersive experience. So I'm stuck trying to find a middle ground here.
My first idea was to allow the player to choose what they say to NPCs; this would require each NPC, however minor, to have some kind of "relationship" counter with the party which would determine how they react to you based on how you've been treating them. Which is awesome on paper but results in a shitload of mostly inconsequential variables for very little reward, as players generally don't give a shit what NPCs say in games.
My next idea was kind of an offshoot of this: the party (such as it is) will start out pretty much unknown (save for people who already know them; some NPCs will react differently to party members if they're, say, from the same town. I've never understood why NPCs have stock phrases when you're talking to them with someone who you recruited in the same town as them and presumably are either acquaintances or friends). Through the actions you take, the quests you do and whatnot, the party will gradually grow (in)famous, and the NPCs you help/hinder will tell tales of your exploits to other people, which will affect how they view you and subsequently the way they speak to you. This is an improvement upon the first idea, but still contains the same basic flaws.
I'm not even sure if it's possible to consolidate the conflicting facts that boring NPCs are useless and nobody really cares what NPCs say if they don't directly further the plot. I want to make "realistic" people in my world, but at the same time it's not really worth putting the effort in if nobody's really going to talk to them.
I've come up with some pretty crazy ideas that just wouldn't work in execution, actually--probably one of my most ambitious was to plan out a "storyline" for EVERY NPC IN THE GAME. So whenever you go to a town or whatever, everyone there is progressing through their own narratives and you'll see as much or as little of their individual adventures as you care to witness. This could be something as mundane as taking care of the kids to an NPC who's on a completely different quest to you and gathers their own groups of adventurers to go and accomplish it. You could see them in various places doing their thing and even choose to help them if you meet them at key points in their journey.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on how to keep NPCs and their dialogue fresh enough to not be mundane without requiring an amount of work and effort that isn't worth the gain you'll get from it in terms of the game itself?
This could apply to other aspects of the game as well. It's not "logical" to carry the kind of item list that most traditional RPGs have, but it's restrictive and potentially damaging to limit the player's inventory to something more realistic to what the group could actually carry. Do you value suspension of disbelief higher and have a portable shared inventory with no limit? (well, beyond the usual 99) or do you think that realistic simulations of what could actually be carried could have a place in a jRPG style game?
Same sort of thing with treasures. Unless there's a given reason for it (and there have been RM games that explained the treasure chests and stuff really well--see Master of the Wind for an excellent example that's blended seamlessly with the plot along with the saving mechanic) there's no justification for just having random chests full of money and items dotted around the world. They'd have been picked clean long ago by people who explored those places before you. And if you're the first to explore said place, who put the chests there?
At the same time, I find myself worrying that if I -don't- put random chests everywhere, people will think there isn't enough reward for exploring maps.
Crafting equipment vs buying it
This is somewhat of a corollary to the topic about naming conventions, as something LockeZ said made my brain go off on a tangent about the role equipment plays in an RPG and what I want it to mean in my game.
A very good point was made that traditionally as the player progresses through the towns in a game the shops will store progressively better equipment for progressively higher costs, which may or may not be offset by the amount of money the player is getting from treasure/battles. However, the salient point was that this is largely useless in most games as the new equipment tends to either be not much better than the stuff you had before or not so much better that it justifies the price tag.
I was thinking about other ways to implement equipment in my game to keep this from being an issue for those who don't think the progressive nature of equipment adds anything to the game, and my first thought was crafting. I think Master of the Wind did this quite well, and I'm thinking of doing something similar with Tundra. That is to say that enemies will drop materials and such and the primary method of gaining equipment will be to use materials and craft it yourself.
However, this also presents potential drawbacks, in that you'll have to rely on luck to get the drops you need for the equipment you want. It also means that you'll have to balance money gains to make sure the player doesn't have so much money that other purchases become meaningless (because they're not spending money on equipment, or not as much as they otherwise would have). I'd also make it make a modicum of sense in the materials required for the equipment made, which would also limit the kinds of materials an enemy could feasibly drop. It's a good idea, but it still has flaws.
What other kinds of equipment "system" can you guys think of? What have you seen done in games that you think approached this topic particularly well? Perhaps you're doing/have done something cool with your own game. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't asking this hoping for some discussion that will generate ideas for myself, but I'm also curious as to what other people's opinions on this are.
A very good point was made that traditionally as the player progresses through the towns in a game the shops will store progressively better equipment for progressively higher costs, which may or may not be offset by the amount of money the player is getting from treasure/battles. However, the salient point was that this is largely useless in most games as the new equipment tends to either be not much better than the stuff you had before or not so much better that it justifies the price tag.
I was thinking about other ways to implement equipment in my game to keep this from being an issue for those who don't think the progressive nature of equipment adds anything to the game, and my first thought was crafting. I think Master of the Wind did this quite well, and I'm thinking of doing something similar with Tundra. That is to say that enemies will drop materials and such and the primary method of gaining equipment will be to use materials and craft it yourself.
However, this also presents potential drawbacks, in that you'll have to rely on luck to get the drops you need for the equipment you want. It also means that you'll have to balance money gains to make sure the player doesn't have so much money that other purchases become meaningless (because they're not spending money on equipment, or not as much as they otherwise would have). I'd also make it make a modicum of sense in the materials required for the equipment made, which would also limit the kinds of materials an enemy could feasibly drop. It's a good idea, but it still has flaws.
What other kinds of equipment "system" can you guys think of? What have you seen done in games that you think approached this topic particularly well? Perhaps you're doing/have done something cool with your own game. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't asking this hoping for some discussion that will generate ideas for myself, but I'm also curious as to what other people's opinions on this are.
Return of the write-off contest
I don't think we've ever done this on RMN before, but I used to have a blast with these on the MS Paint Adventures forums and figured I'd see if I can't bring the popularity back here.
Here's how it's going to work: we need three volunteers to provide the theme, the characters, and the setting (if you provide one of these things you can't participate in the contest). These will all be PMed to the person running the write-off (me) and I will post all requirements at once when the contest begins.
Once the theme, characters and setting are known, people can post saying they want to be a contestant. The first two people to do so will be the "official" contestants. Other people can submit entries but they will not be considered official for the purposes of the contest (I will post unofficial entries when official voting ends).
Both participants will write their story incorporating the given theme/characters/setting, and PM their entries to me. I will then post them both at the same time. At this point anyone can vote on which entry was their favourite.
The entry with most votes will win, and the writer of the entry will carry on as the current write-off champion to participate in the next event against a new challenger.
I've probably made it sound more complex than it actually is, so if anyone has any questions please let me know. If you're interested in participating in this, please post here so I have an idea of how receptive the community would be to an event like this.
(Also no achievements or avatars unless someone else can provide them unfortunately, but I can do an RGSS/RGSS2/RGSS3 script request for the winners or something.)
Here's how it's going to work: we need three volunteers to provide the theme, the characters, and the setting (if you provide one of these things you can't participate in the contest). These will all be PMed to the person running the write-off (me) and I will post all requirements at once when the contest begins.
Once the theme, characters and setting are known, people can post saying they want to be a contestant. The first two people to do so will be the "official" contestants. Other people can submit entries but they will not be considered official for the purposes of the contest (I will post unofficial entries when official voting ends).
Both participants will write their story incorporating the given theme/characters/setting, and PM their entries to me. I will then post them both at the same time. At this point anyone can vote on which entry was their favourite.
The entry with most votes will win, and the writer of the entry will carry on as the current write-off champion to participate in the next event against a new challenger.
I've probably made it sound more complex than it actually is, so if anyone has any questions please let me know. If you're interested in participating in this, please post here so I have an idea of how receptive the community would be to an event like this.
(Also no achievements or avatars unless someone else can provide them unfortunately, but I can do an RGSS/RGSS2/RGSS3 script request for the winners or something.)
The helpful member appreciation thread
This is just a for-fun topic I thought up randomly. I'd like to give props to the people from the community who have helped me over the years to become the developer I am today. You can all feel free to do the same. So I'd like to thank:
Don Miguel, for giving me the tools to start making my very own work of horrible art.
Stifu, for never giving up on RM95.
Paradigm, for some reason.
Deepfrozenfiend, for being a good sounding board for my ideas many moons ago.
FinalDragon, for being pretty much the only person ever who thinks I can finish Tundra.
Umbaglo, for ITEMS ARE CHEATING.
Brickroad, for being the best damn dungeon designer I've ever seen and then not finishing his damn game.
DarkFlamer, for making the worst webcomic in existence and being kind enough to include me in it.
Alethio, for helping me start a Pokémon project that would have been cool if we'd ever finished it.
SovanJedi, for being a badass artist and general all-round good guy. (and doing sprites for the aforementioned Pokémon game that never got made)
Jude, for playing the hell out of some Diablo 2 and 3 with me.
Clyve, for giving me cash moneys for scripting shit.
Magnus, for making one of the cooler websites I was involved in before RMN.
WIP, for being a dick. And sometimes tolerable I guess.
kentona, for having 10001 makerscore.
Calunio, for making a game where you fuck stuff.
Enterbrain, for all the RPG Makers in the past and present and all the RPG Makers coming in the future.
And finally anyone I missed, for whatever reason you had an impact on my "career" or love of games.
Don Miguel, for giving me the tools to start making my very own work of horrible art.
Stifu, for never giving up on RM95.
Paradigm, for some reason.
Deepfrozenfiend, for being a good sounding board for my ideas many moons ago.
FinalDragon, for being pretty much the only person ever who thinks I can finish Tundra.
Umbaglo, for ITEMS ARE CHEATING.
Brickroad, for being the best damn dungeon designer I've ever seen and then not finishing his damn game.
DarkFlamer, for making the worst webcomic in existence and being kind enough to include me in it.
Alethio, for helping me start a Pokémon project that would have been cool if we'd ever finished it.
SovanJedi, for being a badass artist and general all-round good guy. (and doing sprites for the aforementioned Pokémon game that never got made)
Jude, for playing the hell out of some Diablo 2 and 3 with me.
Clyve, for giving me cash moneys for scripting shit.
Magnus, for making one of the cooler websites I was involved in before RMN.
WIP, for being a dick. And sometimes tolerable I guess.
kentona, for having 10001 makerscore.
Calunio, for making a game where you fuck stuff.
Enterbrain, for all the RPG Makers in the past and present and all the RPG Makers coming in the future.
And finally anyone I missed, for whatever reason you had an impact on my "career" or love of games.
The return of IRC Hangman!
So what some of you may not know (or care about) is that I am a pretty excellent mIRC scripter, and am constantly coding silly little games and stuff.
One such game is Hangman, which I coded a bot for a couple years ago that used to be pretty popular. And now I want to bring it back so I have an incentive to make improvements to it, because I still need to get around to putting the achievements back in (yes, it has achievements. And scoring. And points leaderboards that reset daily and weekly).
It's located in #hangman on irc.dynastynet.net. Pretty much everything else you need to know is in the channel topic as you come in.
Help me make this popular again!
Either that or tell me what IRC game you WOULD play and I'll make that instead.
One such game is Hangman, which I coded a bot for a couple years ago that used to be pretty popular. And now I want to bring it back so I have an incentive to make improvements to it, because I still need to get around to putting the achievements back in (yes, it has achievements. And scoring. And points leaderboards that reset daily and weekly).
It's located in #hangman on irc.dynastynet.net. Pretty much everything else you need to know is in the channel topic as you come in.
Help me make this popular again!
Either that or tell me what IRC game you WOULD play and I'll make that instead.
Meta games
My question for you all today is, what are your opinions on "meta" games?
"What the fuck is a meta game, Trihan?" I hear you ask.
By meta game I mean one where the focus is progression outwith the game itself. For example, the Achievement Unlocked or Upgrade Complete series.
Personally I think they're a lot more clever than they're given credit for, especially Achievement Unlocked. In the current climate (for X360 owners at least) gamerscore seems to be the biggest indicator of self-worth, so I always found a game where the whole point is unlocking achievements to be quite amusing.
It says something that I enjoy games about unlocking achievements and upgrading the game more than some proper games out there.
And on a final note, the fact that in Upgrade Complete you can't even buy things until you buy the shop menu screen (and have to buy the preloader for the game) is genius.
"What the fuck is a meta game, Trihan?" I hear you ask.
By meta game I mean one where the focus is progression outwith the game itself. For example, the Achievement Unlocked or Upgrade Complete series.
Personally I think they're a lot more clever than they're given credit for, especially Achievement Unlocked. In the current climate (for X360 owners at least) gamerscore seems to be the biggest indicator of self-worth, so I always found a game where the whole point is unlocking achievements to be quite amusing.
It says something that I enjoy games about unlocking achievements and upgrading the game more than some proper games out there.
And on a final note, the fact that in Upgrade Complete you can't even buy things until you buy the shop menu screen (and have to buy the preloader for the game) is genius.
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