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HP Recovery... after every battle? MADNESS! (Resource Management)
I was wrong about FFXIII. I just remember playing and when a character would die and the fight would end, it seemed like I lost a star because of it and I thought "That's a good idea!" But yeah, you're right, it doesn't work that way.
Think whatever you want about DQIX, I'm just personally having trouble getting through it because at this point (like 20 hrs in) I'm just not being drawn into it very much. It's a nice time-waster, but I don't feel compelled to go play it.
Also, I love the idea of variations of MP, I just don't really like MP the way it's presented in classic Final Fantasy's. Having MP build up as you fight, and spent as you use abilities is a decent route to take. It's just very easy to someone to think, "OK, I want to make an RPG! Now, I have HP and MP and...." Sometimes, people don't even try to imagine something different, it's just the accepted norm.
Think whatever you want about DQIX, I'm just personally having trouble getting through it because at this point (like 20 hrs in) I'm just not being drawn into it very much. It's a nice time-waster, but I don't feel compelled to go play it.
Also, I love the idea of variations of MP, I just don't really like MP the way it's presented in classic Final Fantasy's. Having MP build up as you fight, and spent as you use abilities is a decent route to take. It's just very easy to someone to think, "OK, I want to make an RPG! Now, I have HP and MP and...." Sometimes, people don't even try to imagine something different, it's just the accepted norm.
HP Recovery... after every battle? MADNESS! (Resource Management)
post=155102I tend to think of games that heal you between fights as not wasting your time. In a Final Fantasy, you just fight fight fight until you are low enough that you have to stop fighting, open the menu, click on the healing spells or potions, spam them 'till the party is healed, then close the menu and keep goingThis is a problem with the way the system is handled, not the system itself. You can't do this in games like Dragon Quest unless you want to run out of items and MP in the middle of a dungeon. It's all about resource management.
So what do you do in Dragon Quest? It's the same thing, just not as often maybe. Or you farm enough gold to buy as many items as you need to get through. I didn't say you'd just waste potions or healing magic. It's all about gold management because you can just buy as many potions as you need. There is bag space limitations of course, but nothing that would stop you from being able to complete a dungeon of your level.
I would say resource management would be more where you had to actually make careful choices about what spells you cast, when you cast them, what and pre-battle preparation you did. Also, rarely casting magic during a dungeon and then reaching a boss where you spam your most powerful abilities ad nauseam is also not fun.
The entire system is broken in my opinion. Look at Diablo II as an example. You could literally just fill your bags with potions and spam them until you won the fight. It was completely ridiculous but the game was balanced around it. In something like WoW, you can only use a single potion in a fight and then must wait 2 minutes after the fight to drink another.
This is how items should be. They should be saved for emergencies when you make too many mistakes. If you are playing correctly, you shouldn't have to dip into your items. If items work ala Final Fantasy, then if you just so happen to have 99, then the dungeon suddenly is a joke. Items shouldn't trivialize difficulty.
Imagine in a Final Fantasy if you could only use 1 item per battle. You'd suddenly worry a lot more about proper tactics (keeping up Protect, Shell, Haste, Deprotect, Deshell, etc.), keeping squishies in the back row, and making sure your equipment is up to date. This is a much more intriguing system to me.
Don't get me wrong. I love Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, but I think there are much more intriguing ways to make games. Even Dragon Quest IX just feels a little stale because of it's cling to the old-school systems. This is why FFXIII was such an amazing game (despite the story being so-so.)
HP Recovery... after every battle? MADNESS! (Resource Management)
I tend to think of games that heal you between fights as not wasting your time. In a Final Fantasy, you just fight fight fight until you are low enough that you have to stop fighting, open the menu, click on the healing spells or potions, spam them 'till the party is healed, then close the menu and keep going--FFXIII eliminated this boring step.
My only issue with full healing after a fight is that you don't have any drive to perform well. You could just blindly fight until 2 out of 3 characters are dead and the one survivor is half dead. But there is no penalty of course, so you just move on. FFXIII helped this by scoring you depending on how well you performed, which determined the quality of items you found.
As far as realism goes, I tend to not think of HP as how much blood you can lose. Each time a character is "hit," I don't think they're actually getting cut or crushed, but they're avoiding these things, expending stamina. I describe Hit Points as how many attacks a character can survive (by avoiding, parrying, small nicks, etc) until they screw up and get it and fall unconscious. Using this description, you could argue that healing after a fight makes sense because you are "taking a breather" and then moving on. If you really wanted, you could add some sort of injury system or something to support this and make it more realistic.
The way to make a dungeon challenging while healing between battles is to simply make each battle a test of skill. Design a battle system that highly rewards players who utilize tactics and though, and one highly punishing to players who blindly click the Attack button. Again, FFXIII did this almost flawlessly. The Paradigm Shift system was highly tactical and a ton of fun. Not only in that game did you fully heal between fights, but there wasn't even any MP to worry about. I also think MP is kinda useless the way it's implemented in a standard FF-style game.
My only issue with full healing after a fight is that you don't have any drive to perform well. You could just blindly fight until 2 out of 3 characters are dead and the one survivor is half dead. But there is no penalty of course, so you just move on. FFXIII helped this by scoring you depending on how well you performed, which determined the quality of items you found.
As far as realism goes, I tend to not think of HP as how much blood you can lose. Each time a character is "hit," I don't think they're actually getting cut or crushed, but they're avoiding these things, expending stamina. I describe Hit Points as how many attacks a character can survive (by avoiding, parrying, small nicks, etc) until they screw up and get it and fall unconscious. Using this description, you could argue that healing after a fight makes sense because you are "taking a breather" and then moving on. If you really wanted, you could add some sort of injury system or something to support this and make it more realistic.
The way to make a dungeon challenging while healing between battles is to simply make each battle a test of skill. Design a battle system that highly rewards players who utilize tactics and though, and one highly punishing to players who blindly click the Attack button. Again, FFXIII did this almost flawlessly. The Paradigm Shift system was highly tactical and a ton of fun. Not only in that game did you fully heal between fights, but there wasn't even any MP to worry about. I also think MP is kinda useless the way it's implemented in a standard FF-style game.
Idea Bouncing - Alternative Limit Break system (I know right!)
Yeah, I like this idea quite a bit. I'm doing something similar myself. I have adrenaline that charges each time you perform an action. Every 10 adrenaline makes 1 block. Now you can either save all 4 blocks to perform a very powerful Limit Break-style ability or spend each individual block to Rush a standard ability. It's like EX Hadoken.
It's a lot more interesting and tactical than the regular grind 'till you have your Limit the just use it.
It's a lot more interesting and tactical than the regular grind 'till you have your Limit the just use it.
Lay Bare Your Numbers
Thanks, yeah I'm thinking of a way to convey the info. Either a help screen, tutorial, or maybe a tooltip.
Lay Bare Your Numbers
post=154064
Wondering how the coefficient magically turned from 1.2 into 0.6 and then back into 1.2.
Haha, oops. I had it at 0.6, but changed it to 1.2 in case someone was confused why it would be so low as 60%. But, I forgot to change it in all the steps >.<
Any other thoughts besides my magic coefficient?
Lay Bare Your Numbers
I love the idea of seeing exactly what the stats do! Honestly, all those years of Final Fantasy, it had always bothered me not knowing what exactly Vitality did or exactly how Strength affected your damage.
I use an Excel spreadsheet to balance and determine stat growth. I've put it into a game and given it a run and it works really well.
A side note, in this project, you cannot miss; not even with status effects. Also equipment and talents can affect all stats including growth and non-growth.
The way stats work in my current project is like this:
___________________________________________________________
Stat Growth: There are three core "growth stats" that improve as each character participates in battles. There aren't level ups, but each character has greater or smaller growth in each stat. Also, each character has a Primary stat. That stat gives them Power, which is damage or healing.
___________________________________________________________
Calculated Stats: These don't grow independently of the growth stats, but are affected by talents and equipment.
Health: HP, if you reach 0 you fall unconscious and must receive healing or a bandage to wake up. Also ending the fight awakens.
Power: It's really Attack Power or Spell Power or Psychic Power, depending on the character. But it's simply referred to Power for the purpose of the entire party and affects all abilities that cause damage or healing. If an ability has a coefficient of 60% it causes 60% of that user's Power (damage or healing.)
Attack: Reduces a defender's Defense. If their defense is lowered to 0, Attack is converted into additional Power, but at a lower rate.
Defense: Directly lowers an attacker's Power (before the coefficient). Is lowered by Attack.
Crit Chance: This isn't affected by a stat; each character starts with a 15% chance to crit and this can be improved with talents or equipment. Also Spirit Primaries being with 25% crit.
Vigor: When a character successfully crits, this is added directly into their Power before any calculations. Basically how hard a crit crits.
___________________________________________________________
Resistances: You can have a resistance to a class of damage (Physical, Elemental, or Divine) and/or a type (Martial, Fire) but they don't stack between each other. A character with 25% Physical Resistance and a 35% Martial Resistance doesn't get a 60% total to Martial, just 35%.
Physical: Includes Martial and Corporeal. Martial is weapon, very common, and Corporeal is bleeding.
Elemental: Includes Fire, Frost, Lightning, and Nature.
Divine: Includes Holy and Shadow.
___________________________________________________________
The Growth Stats: The Primary grants 1.0 Power per point. These are the only 3 stats that increase after a battle.
Body: (If Primary, you gain a 10% increased Power and Health and a 10% resistance to Physical damage.) Each point of Body provides:
7 max Health
0.1 Attack
0.1 Defense
Mind: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Attack and Defense and a 10% resistance to Elemental damage.) Each point of Mind provides:
0.2 Attack
0.2 Defense
0.3 Vigor
Spirit: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Vigor and Crit Chance and a 10% resistance to Divine damage.) Each point of Spirit provides:
0.7 Vigor
3 max Health
0.1 Defense
___________________________________________________________
Math Example:
Attacking with Ki Blast: 120% Coefficient, Power: 563, Attack: 99 vs. Defense: 132, Holy Resistance: 15%.
((Power - (Defense - Attack)) * (1 - Resistance)) * (Coefficient)
((563 - (132 - 99)) * (1 - 0.15)) * (1.2)
((563 - (33)) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
((530) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
(450.5) * (1.2)
Damage = 540.6
I use an Excel spreadsheet to balance and determine stat growth. I've put it into a game and given it a run and it works really well.
A side note, in this project, you cannot miss; not even with status effects. Also equipment and talents can affect all stats including growth and non-growth.
The way stats work in my current project is like this:
___________________________________________________________
Stat Growth: There are three core "growth stats" that improve as each character participates in battles. There aren't level ups, but each character has greater or smaller growth in each stat. Also, each character has a Primary stat. That stat gives them Power, which is damage or healing.
___________________________________________________________
Calculated Stats: These don't grow independently of the growth stats, but are affected by talents and equipment.
Health: HP, if you reach 0 you fall unconscious and must receive healing or a bandage to wake up. Also ending the fight awakens.
Power: It's really Attack Power or Spell Power or Psychic Power, depending on the character. But it's simply referred to Power for the purpose of the entire party and affects all abilities that cause damage or healing. If an ability has a coefficient of 60% it causes 60% of that user's Power (damage or healing.)
Attack: Reduces a defender's Defense. If their defense is lowered to 0, Attack is converted into additional Power, but at a lower rate.
Defense: Directly lowers an attacker's Power (before the coefficient). Is lowered by Attack.
Crit Chance: This isn't affected by a stat; each character starts with a 15% chance to crit and this can be improved with talents or equipment. Also Spirit Primaries being with 25% crit.
Vigor: When a character successfully crits, this is added directly into their Power before any calculations. Basically how hard a crit crits.
___________________________________________________________
Resistances: You can have a resistance to a class of damage (Physical, Elemental, or Divine) and/or a type (Martial, Fire) but they don't stack between each other. A character with 25% Physical Resistance and a 35% Martial Resistance doesn't get a 60% total to Martial, just 35%.
Physical: Includes Martial and Corporeal. Martial is weapon, very common, and Corporeal is bleeding.
Elemental: Includes Fire, Frost, Lightning, and Nature.
Divine: Includes Holy and Shadow.
___________________________________________________________
The Growth Stats: The Primary grants 1.0 Power per point. These are the only 3 stats that increase after a battle.
Body: (If Primary, you gain a 10% increased Power and Health and a 10% resistance to Physical damage.) Each point of Body provides:
7 max Health
0.1 Attack
0.1 Defense
Mind: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Attack and Defense and a 10% resistance to Elemental damage.) Each point of Mind provides:
0.2 Attack
0.2 Defense
0.3 Vigor
Spirit: (If Primary, you gain 10% increased Vigor and Crit Chance and a 10% resistance to Divine damage.) Each point of Spirit provides:
0.7 Vigor
3 max Health
0.1 Defense
___________________________________________________________
Math Example:
Attacking with Ki Blast: 120% Coefficient, Power: 563, Attack: 99 vs. Defense: 132, Holy Resistance: 15%.
((Power - (Defense - Attack)) * (1 - Resistance)) * (Coefficient)
((563 - (132 - 99)) * (1 - 0.15)) * (1.2)
((563 - (33)) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
((530) * (0.85)) * (1.2)
(450.5) * (1.2)
Damage = 540.6
Class Separation
@GRS.
I really like your way of figuring stats and classes! I do the same thing with Excel myself. I have a great big spreadsheet with a basic page and a page for each character. I also use linear growth to make it easier on me and on the player. Though instead of balancing good and bad stat growths, I just have a total cell under the stat growth column that I use to make it the same for each character.
As far as equipment goes, I like your approach to that system. It's a pretty interesting take on the standard equipment system. Equipment is something I'm always trying to play with to make it unique, innovative, or at least fun. Cool idea about the accessory to remove equipment restrictions, too.
I also like how you've separated healers into differing types rather than just two guys who both can heal and might have a slightly different rate of learning. An example from my game is a healer who can only heal with a periodic heal (HoT), then I have a self-heal on the two characters who sacrifice life to perform powerful attacks. The second actual healer has access to a powerful direct heal and a very powerful all-party heal. His caveat is that he needs to generate Ki energy (by using attacks or through passive abilities) to fuel them, so they aren't exactly on demand. The last "healer" doesn't really heal, but she's able to project shields that absorb damage and buff the characters' defense, reducing damage that way.
And finally, the point about actions being a precious resource is something I feel is massively overlooked. In my game, Devil Star, every action has its own "time cost." It utilizes the same ATB bar found in various Final Fantasy's, but a command may only consume 1/4 of the bar, or it may consume 1.5 bars (putting you in the negative.) This way, using a potion might be beneficial over using a healing spell just for the simple fact that items have a really low ATB consumption cost. (Also in my latest project, there is no MP only HP, Adrenaline, and Stamina (similar to ATB.))
Time and action management is a fantastic way to balance an RPG and makes for much more interesting gameplay. Also, as a side note, Dragon Quest IX is a lot of fun. I like the way they've handled the class system. My only gripe would be it feels weird the way you start at Lv. 1 when you switch vocations, but it works out in the end. Seems odd to be a 300 hit-point gladiator and suddenly be a thief with 35 hit points.
I really like your way of figuring stats and classes! I do the same thing with Excel myself. I have a great big spreadsheet with a basic page and a page for each character. I also use linear growth to make it easier on me and on the player. Though instead of balancing good and bad stat growths, I just have a total cell under the stat growth column that I use to make it the same for each character.
As far as equipment goes, I like your approach to that system. It's a pretty interesting take on the standard equipment system. Equipment is something I'm always trying to play with to make it unique, innovative, or at least fun. Cool idea about the accessory to remove equipment restrictions, too.
I also like how you've separated healers into differing types rather than just two guys who both can heal and might have a slightly different rate of learning. An example from my game is a healer who can only heal with a periodic heal (HoT), then I have a self-heal on the two characters who sacrifice life to perform powerful attacks. The second actual healer has access to a powerful direct heal and a very powerful all-party heal. His caveat is that he needs to generate Ki energy (by using attacks or through passive abilities) to fuel them, so they aren't exactly on demand. The last "healer" doesn't really heal, but she's able to project shields that absorb damage and buff the characters' defense, reducing damage that way.
And finally, the point about actions being a precious resource is something I feel is massively overlooked. In my game, Devil Star, every action has its own "time cost." It utilizes the same ATB bar found in various Final Fantasy's, but a command may only consume 1/4 of the bar, or it may consume 1.5 bars (putting you in the negative.) This way, using a potion might be beneficial over using a healing spell just for the simple fact that items have a really low ATB consumption cost. (Also in my latest project, there is no MP only HP, Adrenaline, and Stamina (similar to ATB.))
Time and action management is a fantastic way to balance an RPG and makes for much more interesting gameplay. Also, as a side note, Dragon Quest IX is a lot of fun. I like the way they've handled the class system. My only gripe would be it feels weird the way you start at Lv. 1 when you switch vocations, but it works out in the end. Seems odd to be a 300 hit-point gladiator and suddenly be a thief with 35 hit points.
Introducing...the Carlsev Saga Tactical Battle System
Stat ups buy using cash instead of leveling system.
Vagrant Story represent!
On topic: I would just separate the two money and progression points of some kind. It seems like it would just be too hard to balance a system where Inn costs, items, equipment, and your personal progression were all using the same currency.
But I do like the idea of increasing your character's stats rather than just leveling up. And if you make the cost increase each time you do it, in encourages even stat growth. You could be sitting on 200 pts to spend and either get Attack rank 12 for 180 or increase Defense and Magic BOTH from 3-6 for 190 pts.
On topic: I would just separate the two money and progression points of some kind. It seems like it would just be too hard to balance a system where Inn costs, items, equipment, and your personal progression were all using the same currency.
But I do like the idea of increasing your character's stats rather than just leveling up. And if you make the cost increase each time you do it, in encourages even stat growth. You could be sitting on 200 pts to spend and either get Attack rank 12 for 180 or increase Defense and Magic BOTH from 3-6 for 190 pts.
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