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THE RELIGION THREAD
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CashmereCat
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CloseHey guys!
The purpose of this topic is to provide a civil, informative, respectful and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate. Posts while debating and discussing different beliefs must be done in the spirit of productivity. If a person's main goal is to undermine a set of beliefs by creating unproductive posts/threads/responses to others, etc, then they will be edited or removed and subject to moderation. I have been given permission by a moderator to post this topic.
Here are a few rules that I think we should all agree to abide by.
Rules
1. Personal attacks. This is a place for rational critique of ideas, not persons. If you are seen to be disproportionately attacking a person rather than their ideas, that is not encouraged. The ideal state of argument would be a relatively peaceful exchange of ideals, reasoning and persuasion.
2. Trolling or bullying. Deliberately inflammatory and/or unconstructive posts in order to provoke a vehement response from other users is not allowed. Neither is deliberately altering the words of another member to intentionally change their meaning. Ideally, all posts should be constructive exchanges, designed not to needlessly offend or provoke people.
3. Normal forum rules. They can be found here.
The purpose of this topic is to provide a civil, informative, respectful and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate. Posts while debating and discussing different beliefs must be done in the spirit of productivity. If a person's main goal is to undermine a set of beliefs by creating unproductive posts/threads/responses to others, etc, then they will be edited or removed and subject to moderation. I have been given permission by a moderator to post this topic.
Here are a few rules that I think we should all agree to abide by.
Rules
1. Personal attacks. This is a place for rational critique of ideas, not persons. If you are seen to be disproportionately attacking a person rather than their ideas, that is not encouraged. The ideal state of argument would be a relatively peaceful exchange of ideals, reasoning and persuasion.
2. Trolling or bullying. Deliberately inflammatory and/or unconstructive posts in order to provoke a vehement response from other users is not allowed. Neither is deliberately altering the words of another member to intentionally change their meaning. Ideally, all posts should be constructive exchanges, designed not to needlessly offend or provoke people.
3. Normal forum rules. They can be found here.
I was a bit nervous initially to create this thread, but I figured I will, for the cause of finding truth (that is, if you believe in truth), and to exchange ideas in a healthy manner. I realize that this is perhaps near impossible, but with a community like RMN, perhaps it is not. If any moderator would like to lock this topic, they have free rein.
Personal Introduction
I guess I'll start by introducing what I believe. I consider myself a Christian, I believe there is one God in all the universe, that God made the universe, the Earth, and created man in His image. God placed humanity on Earth, with the choice for right or wrong, but humanity chose to sin (do things contrary to the nature and will of God), which made us suffer the effects of death. As a result, all of mankind inherited a sinful nature, doing bad things naturally because we're in a fallen state.
Fast forward how many years, and God decided to send the second person of the Trinity (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit; not 3 gods, but 1 God as a trio of persons), to die on the cross and rise from the dead physically, and that all people are under the righteous judgement of God because they have sinned against God. Jesus is the only way to be saved from the coming judgment of God, and that being saved is received by faith in the work of Christ on the cross (Jn 3:16) and nothing we can do to provide that justification.
I don't believe in any sort of weighing up of the good deeds against the bad, but that God gives salvation by grace alone (Eph 2:8). We aren't made right with God by works or anything we do, but by accepting his invite into a personal relationship with Him via what Christ did on the cross.
I guess, to sum it all up, it is a relationship with the true and living God through the person of Jesus Christ by whom we are forgiven of our sins and escape the righteous judgment of God.
Appeal to questioning
Feel free to introduce your faith here, to provide some questions, or otherwise. I'm free to open any questions and generally I have a thick skin. Partially, the reason I did not want to expand on my beliefs in the other thread just previous to this one was because the moderators deemed that the topic was not suitable for religious discussion. But since I believe that my stance on such matters is inherently tied to my beliefs, I figured I would create another topic to provide such an opportunity.
Personal Introduction
I guess I'll start by introducing what I believe. I consider myself a Christian, I believe there is one God in all the universe, that God made the universe, the Earth, and created man in His image. God placed humanity on Earth, with the choice for right or wrong, but humanity chose to sin (do things contrary to the nature and will of God), which made us suffer the effects of death. As a result, all of mankind inherited a sinful nature, doing bad things naturally because we're in a fallen state.
Fast forward how many years, and God decided to send the second person of the Trinity (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit; not 3 gods, but 1 God as a trio of persons), to die on the cross and rise from the dead physically, and that all people are under the righteous judgement of God because they have sinned against God. Jesus is the only way to be saved from the coming judgment of God, and that being saved is received by faith in the work of Christ on the cross (Jn 3:16) and nothing we can do to provide that justification.
I don't believe in any sort of weighing up of the good deeds against the bad, but that God gives salvation by grace alone (Eph 2:8). We aren't made right with God by works or anything we do, but by accepting his invite into a personal relationship with Him via what Christ did on the cross.
I guess, to sum it all up, it is a relationship with the true and living God through the person of Jesus Christ by whom we are forgiven of our sins and escape the righteous judgment of God.
Appeal to questioning
Feel free to introduce your faith here, to provide some questions, or otherwise. I'm free to open any questions and generally I have a thick skin. Partially, the reason I did not want to expand on my beliefs in the other thread just previous to this one was because the moderators deemed that the topic was not suitable for religious discussion. But since I believe that my stance on such matters is inherently tied to my beliefs, I figured I would create another topic to provide such an opportunity.
Shinan
4314
Most of the time I consider myself a militant atheist. Occasionally I will dabble in the church I belong to (the evangelical-Lutheran church of Finland) and in my teenage years I enjoyed my bit of Discordianism (fnord). At one point in 8th grade I also created my own religion. Because who hasn't tried it at least once?
I don't really believe in any gods though I find religion itself to be incredibly fascinating. The whole idea of why religions exist in the first place and their place in history and stuff. And also all of the stuff about the historicity of religious myths and legends.
So yeah mostly I'm a militant atheist. I tend to look down upon people who genuinely believe some of this stuff. Especially in the face of overwhelming scientific fact. (much like I look down upon anti-vaxxers and climate change skeptics). The ones I look down upon least are those who just sort of believe but don't deny the vast majesty of the actual universe. (you know the guys who are like "I believe in a higher power, but more like as a beginning force and a silent observer type of deal.")
I don't really believe in any gods though I find religion itself to be incredibly fascinating. The whole idea of why religions exist in the first place and their place in history and stuff. And also all of the stuff about the historicity of religious myths and legends.
So yeah mostly I'm a militant atheist. I tend to look down upon people who genuinely believe some of this stuff. Especially in the face of overwhelming scientific fact. (much like I look down upon anti-vaxxers and climate change skeptics). The ones I look down upon least are those who just sort of believe but don't deny the vast majesty of the actual universe. (you know the guys who are like "I believe in a higher power, but more like as a beginning force and a silent observer type of deal.")
author=Shinan
So yeah mostly I'm a militant atheist. I tend to look down upon people who genuinely believe some of this stuff. Especially in the face of overwhelming scientific fact.
There is possible argument that carbon dating is inaccurately calibrated, due to assumptions about certain dates being wrong. C14 dating is very accurate for wood used up to about 4000 years ago, because it's well calibrated with objects of known age. However, for objects over 4,000 years old, there are few, if any, known artifacts to be used as the standard. Libby, the discoverer of the C14 method, was very disappointed with this problem.
Despite there being possible argument for creationism regarding the possibly unreliable carbon dating of tree rings, it is also possible that a higher being or god could have created the universe using macroevolution as his/her/their tool. I mean, philosophically, I don't think it's possible to even point at the evolution of a universe to its current point and say, "See! That's reason not to believe in God! Because it looks like there isn't one." Theoretically, there is a chance a higher being could have used evolution to create the universe, or could have created the universe with molecules pointing back to make it "seem" like it came from a single point in time, without a cause. Scientific arguments for/against creation don't disprove God altogether, although I agree that it may make the notion less plausible to some.
Just chiming in here to say that I'd like for people to have a chance to have actual discussions here. Dropping into this thread to make intentionally inflammatory remarks, start fights or hurt feelings is not welcome.
As for religion, my family was Catholic growing up. I went to a catholic high school. My mother's uncle was a priest (and, by all accounts I have ever heard, a very good and inspirational one who helped people with terminal illnesses.) Most of my family weren't devout in any real sense, but religion was a major part of my upbringing.
As I got older I drifted away from religion. I don't think divine influence is the best or most reasonable explanation where life, evolution, or the universe came from. I see a lot of people who use their faith as a shield or a cudgel to hurt other people and it makes me angry. But some people use faith to do good things and help others. I can only really think that's a good thing and wish more people did it. I think the current pope is a pretty inspirational guy and I hope we see more people following his example.
As for religion, my family was Catholic growing up. I went to a catholic high school. My mother's uncle was a priest (and, by all accounts I have ever heard, a very good and inspirational one who helped people with terminal illnesses.) Most of my family weren't devout in any real sense, but religion was a major part of my upbringing.
As I got older I drifted away from religion. I don't think divine influence is the best or most reasonable explanation where life, evolution, or the universe came from. I see a lot of people who use their faith as a shield or a cudgel to hurt other people and it makes me angry. But some people use faith to do good things and help others. I can only really think that's a good thing and wish more people did it. I think the current pope is a pretty inspirational guy and I hope we see more people following his example.
author=Shinan
Especially in the face of overwhelming scientific fact.
What fact? God can't be scientifically denied. There doesn't have to be any proof of its existence. Read some Descartes or Medieval philosophers. Their vindication often stands that because I'm thinking about God, It means its existence (it's more complicated than this but whatever).
author=CashmereCat
There is possible argument that carbon dating is inaccurately calibrated
This is why I think religion and science just don't mesh, at least, if that's the method of approach. This came up once in a discussion about the age of the universe. Someone made the same argument about C14 dating being inaccurate past 6,000 years, which is true except it being more like around 40,000 years. Regardless of the details, I wasn't going to argue against C14 being inaccurate. I instead brought up the science showing that we can positively prove that some stars are more than a couple million light years away from us, meaning that the light has been traveling through space for more than a couple million years, meaning 'existence' as we know it has to be older than 6000 years.
Then someone said God might have made the universe 'appear' that way. Well, that would be a pretty crummy thing for an omnipotent creator to do to the beings they've created, right? He presumably gave us the ability to observe and understand the universe that He created, He wanted us to revel at his universe, why would He then create inconsistencies that we could never possibly prove or know existed?
Also, science just isn't into the business of proving negatives. There is no proof to suggest that starlight is any younger than the distance between Earth and them so that's that. There's no need to investigate and disprove something that there is no proof of ever existing. Such as God or the possible interventions of God.
Of course, people get offended, but that's not a moral statement for or against religion. It just means science can't prove God exists. It's simply stating that science has no business investigating the meta-physical. So the whole idea of using science to prove creationism is just... odd, to say the least.
There's also the problem of the many other, much more accurate, ways of dating objects right here on Earth. Many of which prove that at the very least, the Bible can not be taken literally.
I'm curious though, my mother is a staunch Christian, yet she thinks creationists are out of there mind. She believes that whatever scientists uncover, they're actually just uncovering the methods of God's creations. She also believes the bible could be inaccurate, mistranslated, or purposefully manipulated, as it was recorded by man to the best of their ability in an attempt to understand God, but recorded by imperfect men nonetheless, and so she doesn't take it literally.
This could very well be some new-age hippy crap. As an atheist, the politics never entirely concerned me, but it all seemed rather rational and I'd be curious to know how others feel about such a position.
author=Shinan
So yeah mostly I'm a militant atheist.
Militant as in Sam-Harris/Richard Dawkins, or more just like being super stoked about being atheist?
Shinan
4314
it is also possible that a higher being or god could have created the universe using macroevolution as his/her/their tool. I mean, philosophically, I don't think it's possible to even point at the evolution of a universe to its current point and say, "See! That's reason not to believe in God! Because it looks like there isn't one." Theoretically, there is a chance a higher being could have used evolution to create the universe, or could have created the universe with molecules pointing back to make it "seem" like it came from a single point in time, without a cause. Scientific arguments for/against creation don't disprove God altogether, although I agree that it may make the notion less plausible to some.
Yeah I don't really have much of an issue with the theoretical god. Since the theoretical god doesn't really affect things in practice. Like the philosophical thing where "how can I know if anyone but me exists?". It's a thought-experiment. Maybe only I exist. But practically it doesn't make much of a difference. The same with the theoretical god. The theoretical god is not part of the observable universe, so it is completely irrelevant and might as well not exist. If someone chooses to believe in it I don't mind I guess.
The problem arises when people decide that this theoretical god isn't so theoretical after all and that in fact this being created the world by vomiting after devouring his child, planting a world seed or letting there be light. When it all becomes literal despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
EDIT:
author=Cap_HMore posts happened. But I guess my comments about the observable universe and whatnot means that I'm talking about a literal god. Clearly all gods exist because we've created them. the monsters in the "Big monster" thread all exist because we've come up with them. That doesn't mean that they exist in the "real" world.author=ShinanWhat fact? God can't be scientifically denied. There doesn't have to be any proof of its existence. Read some Descartes or Medieval philosophers. Their vindication often stands that because I'm thinking about God, It means its existence (it's more complicated than this but whatever).
Especially in the face of overwhelming scientific fact.
I was raised by Primitive Baptists who were hardcore fundamentalists. As a young child I questioned some of the teachings I didn't understand and was told, one on one by a trusted preacher, that such questioning would lead me to burn for eternity in hell.
That started the schism in my mind. I hadn't even hit puberty yet and already something seriously seemed wrong, and trying to talk to my parents about it seemed to make things worse (If I hadn't been a dumb child, I would have just told them exactly what had happened, which may have helped more).
When I became a teenager, I became an angry atheist. The idea of a benevolent god didn't make sense with the idea of Christianity in which I'd been raised, where fear and judgement seemed to be placed higher than forgiveness. I was also dealing with my awakening bisexuality, and I couldn't understand why getting butterflies in my stomach from looking at someone of either sex was so damning.
I was angry for a long time, and my family was very upset with me. I would read the bible, for the opposite reason that my family was, so I could find parts of it that made no sense or were contradictory, and throw it in my family's face in hopes of showing them that my stance was a valid one. Of course, none of that worked.
It wasn't until I was in my twenties that I met Christians who actually demonstrated the forgiveness part of the religion that was so missing from my childhood. It was through knowing these people for years that I was able to heal my hurt over religion. I was so upset with my community as a child that I couldn't comprehend that there were people using the same religion in a different way.
This all leaves me in a strange place, religiously-speaking. I'm open to the idea of a benevolent god, an all-forgiving god who guides us through each day. I don't think, however, that the bible was divinely inspired, nor do I think that the old testament god is compatible with a truly benevolent god.
What I believe in is the infinite possibilities of spirituality. I believe in spirituality without doctrine, in loving the universe without having to define the source of the love via any religion. I don't know how to label or quantify that, but that's where I am.
That started the schism in my mind. I hadn't even hit puberty yet and already something seriously seemed wrong, and trying to talk to my parents about it seemed to make things worse (If I hadn't been a dumb child, I would have just told them exactly what had happened, which may have helped more).
When I became a teenager, I became an angry atheist. The idea of a benevolent god didn't make sense with the idea of Christianity in which I'd been raised, where fear and judgement seemed to be placed higher than forgiveness. I was also dealing with my awakening bisexuality, and I couldn't understand why getting butterflies in my stomach from looking at someone of either sex was so damning.
I was angry for a long time, and my family was very upset with me. I would read the bible, for the opposite reason that my family was, so I could find parts of it that made no sense or were contradictory, and throw it in my family's face in hopes of showing them that my stance was a valid one. Of course, none of that worked.
It wasn't until I was in my twenties that I met Christians who actually demonstrated the forgiveness part of the religion that was so missing from my childhood. It was through knowing these people for years that I was able to heal my hurt over religion. I was so upset with my community as a child that I couldn't comprehend that there were people using the same religion in a different way.
This all leaves me in a strange place, religiously-speaking. I'm open to the idea of a benevolent god, an all-forgiving god who guides us through each day. I don't think, however, that the bible was divinely inspired, nor do I think that the old testament god is compatible with a truly benevolent god.
What I believe in is the infinite possibilities of spirituality. I believe in spirituality without doctrine, in loving the universe without having to define the source of the love via any religion. I don't know how to label or quantify that, but that's where I am.
As long as this thread actually is about and stays focused on constructive exchange and discussion of thoughts and beliefs, I don't see what would be wrong with it. On the contrary, actually.
I, myself, am a convinced atheist. And I deliberately choose to call myself "atheist" and not "agnostic" or something similar, because while I'm aware that I can never be 100% certain about it, I'm entirely convinced that there is no such thing as a God or any higher being. Nothing I have ever seen, found or thought in my whole life has given me any reason to believe in any such thing.
However rationalist my world view may be, though, I do think there are forces in the universe that we as humans will never be able to fully grasp. But in contrast to people who identify them with deities, I don't believe these forces have a will, an agenda, or even an own consciousness. I think of them more in terms of extended laws of nature, so complex that they will always be inexplicable to our brains.
For a very long time, I used to have rather strong prejudices against religious people. Fortunately, this has changed over the last few years, and I hope I can say that I am now much less of a condescending punk than I was before.
Ultimately, my perspective is generally materialistic and based on utilitarianism: I want people to be happy and not having to suffer. Some people do great things that are inspired by religious beliefs - this is what I greatly support. Some people do horrible things in the name of religion - this is what I think must be opposed. But religion in itself is neither good nor bad. It just is, and people should be allowed the freedom to believe.
This is also the reason why I think militant or aggressive atheism is wrong. All it does is create more tension and conflict between people who could have been on the same side, just because they happen to believe in something non-rational. Looking down on others and calling them out for their religion does not improve anything, its only "purpose" is to foster our own arrogance and to stroke our egos by making us think we're better and more clever than others.
At the same time, however, I also think religious beliefs should not be allowed to form a base for power or decisions in the material world. Of course, religion will and can influence people's way of life and their personal decisions - but that's what it should be: personal. Taking decisions that affect other people and their lives cannot be based on beliefs that we cannot be sure of and cannot agree upon, since we can never without a doubt find which belief is right. So the only fair course of action is to base those decisions on what we can know: The world as we perceive it.
Now, Cashmere, I want to address your point of view specifically because I have a really hard time coming to terms with it. I know that the concept of a God who forgives his followers purely through their belief is not an uncommon one. But it is impossible for me to understand how you can bring yourself to believe in such a concept.
Of minor concern to me is, first of all, that if God really does not judge us based on our deeds but only based on our faith, then the idea of "sins" and "virtues" becomes incredibly vague. Does it mean we can commit whatever deeds we want without consequences, as long as we believe in God? Or does it mean that because of our belief, if it is genuine, we become unable to commit sins automatically? But if so, then how come so many religious people have different opinions of what sins and virtues are? And why would God hold us accountable for the sins of our long-gone ancestors in the first place?
But a much more important point: What kind of God is that who creates a species like humanity and gives them the freedom to build up their own existence, only to then be interested in whether they turn to and worship him, and nothing else? How can someone do however many good deeds to preserve, help and respect God's creations but still be doomed simply for their lack of faith? Does it really make sense to assume that God would be so rigorous, so strict and so harsh that he would refuse to understand why I don't believe in his existence, despite him allegedly being all-seeing, all-knowing and all-loving?
And what I'm about to say now might feel completely incomprehensible or even blasphemous to you. But if God really exists, and he doesn't actually care about his creations' well-being even here in the material world, but he is only interested in whether we choose and accept him as our superiour - then, even if I was absolutely sure he exists, I would deliberately and consciously refuse to worship and serve him. Because from my perspective, such a self-centered and merciless God would be an evil God, and going to hell would be the better choice. Because having to serve and "enter a personal relationship" with such an evil deity, that would be the real hell for me.
I'm sure I must have misunderstood a few of your points, and my replies might be unnecessarily extreme here - but yeah, that's my take on the whole issue.
I, myself, am a convinced atheist. And I deliberately choose to call myself "atheist" and not "agnostic" or something similar, because while I'm aware that I can never be 100% certain about it, I'm entirely convinced that there is no such thing as a God or any higher being. Nothing I have ever seen, found or thought in my whole life has given me any reason to believe in any such thing.
However rationalist my world view may be, though, I do think there are forces in the universe that we as humans will never be able to fully grasp. But in contrast to people who identify them with deities, I don't believe these forces have a will, an agenda, or even an own consciousness. I think of them more in terms of extended laws of nature, so complex that they will always be inexplicable to our brains.
For a very long time, I used to have rather strong prejudices against religious people. Fortunately, this has changed over the last few years, and I hope I can say that I am now much less of a condescending punk than I was before.
Ultimately, my perspective is generally materialistic and based on utilitarianism: I want people to be happy and not having to suffer. Some people do great things that are inspired by religious beliefs - this is what I greatly support. Some people do horrible things in the name of religion - this is what I think must be opposed. But religion in itself is neither good nor bad. It just is, and people should be allowed the freedom to believe.
This is also the reason why I think militant or aggressive atheism is wrong. All it does is create more tension and conflict between people who could have been on the same side, just because they happen to believe in something non-rational. Looking down on others and calling them out for their religion does not improve anything, its only "purpose" is to foster our own arrogance and to stroke our egos by making us think we're better and more clever than others.
At the same time, however, I also think religious beliefs should not be allowed to form a base for power or decisions in the material world. Of course, religion will and can influence people's way of life and their personal decisions - but that's what it should be: personal. Taking decisions that affect other people and their lives cannot be based on beliefs that we cannot be sure of and cannot agree upon, since we can never without a doubt find which belief is right. So the only fair course of action is to base those decisions on what we can know: The world as we perceive it.
I feel bad for putting this in a thread like this, but I guess my views on religion are best expressed in this game of mine. Sorry for the self-promotion, it just felt too relevant to not do.
Now, Cashmere, I want to address your point of view specifically because I have a really hard time coming to terms with it. I know that the concept of a God who forgives his followers purely through their belief is not an uncommon one. But it is impossible for me to understand how you can bring yourself to believe in such a concept.
Of minor concern to me is, first of all, that if God really does not judge us based on our deeds but only based on our faith, then the idea of "sins" and "virtues" becomes incredibly vague. Does it mean we can commit whatever deeds we want without consequences, as long as we believe in God? Or does it mean that because of our belief, if it is genuine, we become unable to commit sins automatically? But if so, then how come so many religious people have different opinions of what sins and virtues are? And why would God hold us accountable for the sins of our long-gone ancestors in the first place?
But a much more important point: What kind of God is that who creates a species like humanity and gives them the freedom to build up their own existence, only to then be interested in whether they turn to and worship him, and nothing else? How can someone do however many good deeds to preserve, help and respect God's creations but still be doomed simply for their lack of faith? Does it really make sense to assume that God would be so rigorous, so strict and so harsh that he would refuse to understand why I don't believe in his existence, despite him allegedly being all-seeing, all-knowing and all-loving?
And what I'm about to say now might feel completely incomprehensible or even blasphemous to you. But if God really exists, and he doesn't actually care about his creations' well-being even here in the material world, but he is only interested in whether we choose and accept him as our superiour - then, even if I was absolutely sure he exists, I would deliberately and consciously refuse to worship and serve him. Because from my perspective, such a self-centered and merciless God would be an evil God, and going to hell would be the better choice. Because having to serve and "enter a personal relationship" with such an evil deity, that would be the real hell for me.
I'm sure I must have misunderstood a few of your points, and my replies might be unnecessarily extreme here - but yeah, that's my take on the whole issue.
I don't consider myself to have any sort of spirituality. I was raised Roman Catholic, but I thought it was bullshit and I was sick of them trying to brainwash me (which got really bad near the end of my tenure at the church), so I quit the church and haven't looked back since. Maybe other Christian denominations work differently, but the stuff that RC's try shoving into your face near the end of Confirmation is insane. It was like a cult.
If you want to talk about belief in a God, I think that something created existence and the universe. I wouldn't call it God myself. More like a primordial energy that's (currently) far beyond any sort of Human understanding or observation. If someone wants to call it God and pray to it they can go right ahead, but honestly, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that a hypothetically intelligent creator gives two shits about what you do in your spare time, or made you in its own image. Humans are just a species of Great Ape after all. I don't really know why we should be so special amongst the other Apes or all the other species on Earth, or in the Universe.
I've always thought that in addition to the inherent arrogance of the whole thing, it was damaging to live your life under the assumption that a divine force is watching and judging you. Humans already force themselves to live with enough people and codes to live up to. Thinking that something is going to judge your fate after you die is a recipe for making fragile personalities do crazy and hurtful things. If I went through my life trying to please God I would have snapped ages ago, because of how I was born as a Xenophile who loves being free as a damn bird to do whatever he feels like doing. Trying to live under the "moral code" of society is already bad enough for someone who wants to fuck animal people.
All that said however, I can't act like Organized Religion or Spirituality are all bad. For every terrible thing that happens because of belief, a wonderful thing usually happens as well. I understand that. Which is why I don't go around campaigning against religion, because, if you want to believe it you can go right ahead and believe it. It's not my right to decide that for other people. Just don't try to hurt or control other people because of it.
I hope I haven't been unintentionally offensive in this post. It's admittedly a little bit of a hot issue in my mind.
If you want to talk about belief in a God, I think that something created existence and the universe. I wouldn't call it God myself. More like a primordial energy that's (currently) far beyond any sort of Human understanding or observation. If someone wants to call it God and pray to it they can go right ahead, but honestly, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that a hypothetically intelligent creator gives two shits about what you do in your spare time, or made you in its own image. Humans are just a species of Great Ape after all. I don't really know why we should be so special amongst the other Apes or all the other species on Earth, or in the Universe.
I've always thought that in addition to the inherent arrogance of the whole thing, it was damaging to live your life under the assumption that a divine force is watching and judging you. Humans already force themselves to live with enough people and codes to live up to. Thinking that something is going to judge your fate after you die is a recipe for making fragile personalities do crazy and hurtful things. If I went through my life trying to please God I would have snapped ages ago, because of how I was born as a Xenophile who loves being free as a damn bird to do whatever he feels like doing. Trying to live under the "moral code" of society is already bad enough for someone who wants to fuck animal people.
All that said however, I can't act like Organized Religion or Spirituality are all bad. For every terrible thing that happens because of belief, a wonderful thing usually happens as well. I understand that. Which is why I don't go around campaigning against religion, because, if you want to believe it you can go right ahead and believe it. It's not my right to decide that for other people. Just don't try to hurt or control other people because of it.
I hope I haven't been unintentionally offensive in this post. It's admittedly a little bit of a hot issue in my mind.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I've always been an Atheist. I guess I was luckier than everyone else here in that no one really flat out condemned my beliefs. Everyone, even my pastor, was understanding and willing to accept them, though not exactly liking my stance. If they thought any less of me as a person, they never showed it.
I was raised as an an Episcopalian for 18 years, but I never believed in it at any point. Every time I went to church, I always had to fight to stay awake because all the sermons were so boring. I mean, the pastor was nice, got along well with adults and kids alike, and was full of vigor and personality, so it's not like the sermons themselves were boring. It's just that they were the same sermons, over and over and over again. No matter how interesting it was, I couldn't stand sitting through the same one week after week after week. After about a year and a half since I started going to church, I couldn't help but think, "Yeah, I get it," over and over again while the priests kept reciting the same lines over and over again.
Instead, I skipped out on the weekly services and volunteered to help around at my church. I took various leadership positions to help make a difference: I led a team to build a playground for children, took charge of the youth group and planned activities, volunteered at the day care center to look after the children who were too young to attend the services, etc. I got more fulfillment from actually doing things than just listening to thousand year old stories.
However, it wasn't until I was 18 that I realized that I came to a realization: I was doing these things for personal fulfillment, not religious fulfillment. Not once in my entire life have I, "believed in the cause," if you will. I realized that the only reason I was helping around church was because I was forced to go there every week, and I had nothing else to do. I guess this is a bit arrogant of me to say, but it also annoyed me whenever I finished a task, and people were saying things like, "Nova, you're doing God's work," or, "God willed this."
No. That was me that did this. I willed it. The playground, the children, the youth group, are all thriving because of my efforts. Their attempts to discredit my work really killed my motivation to continue working.
I also never believed in praying for miracles (or praying in general). I would much rather go out and try to make those, "miracles," happen. For factors beyond my control, I just recognize that they are beyond my control and try not to let them get to me.
One of the biggest beefs I have with religious people is when they give credit to God or whatever deity they worship when it's not warranted. For example, firefighters and police officers make their living by risking their lives to save people and property. From my experience, whenever they do the job, they don't get the thanks they deserve. The people helped usually thank God or their equivalent deity. That really bothers me when people do this, as officers/firefighters don't get the recognition they deserve when they succeed, yet all of the blame whenever they fail.
Nowadays, I don't really care what people believe, as it's not really my business. They have their beliefs and I have mine. I feel like trying to convince others that they are wrong and I am right is both condescending and a waste of time for both of us. Their beliefs come from many different reasons and life experiences, so who am I to tell them that those beliefs are wrong?
Where I draw the line is when religious scriptures are interpreted literally. Like, those events truly happened. I don't agree with those and I don't think I ever will come to an understanding. Also, any religions that decree that non-believers should be forced to convert or killed is a system that I refuse to recognize as valid.
Also, I don't agree that faith should be used as evidence to dictate how other people should live. Especially if those lifestyles don't interfere with your life in any way.
NeverSilent, If you feel embarrassed plugging yourself, that's fine. Let me do it for you: I think everyone should go play The Book of True Will, as I feel it does a great job of exploring both sides of the religious argument at different extremes. It probably won't answer questions as to who's right or wrong, but I think it will help people gain some more respect for the other sides of the argument and perhaps provoke some internal thought.
TL;DR: I like to take my life into my own hands, rather than leave even a fraction of it to a religious deity.
EDIT:
Ah yes, one thing I forgot to mention: I also draw the tolerance line when a person only has faith because they were told to believe that. If their parents raised them to have a certain faith, and they follow that faith without any kind of internal exploration of their own, then I can't stand that. Obviously, if a person is raised to believe something and comes to believe it of their own accord, then no problem. But we're given the ability to think for a reason, and it annoys me if people willingly do not use that ability.
I was raised as an an Episcopalian for 18 years, but I never believed in it at any point. Every time I went to church, I always had to fight to stay awake because all the sermons were so boring. I mean, the pastor was nice, got along well with adults and kids alike, and was full of vigor and personality, so it's not like the sermons themselves were boring. It's just that they were the same sermons, over and over and over again. No matter how interesting it was, I couldn't stand sitting through the same one week after week after week. After about a year and a half since I started going to church, I couldn't help but think, "Yeah, I get it," over and over again while the priests kept reciting the same lines over and over again.
Instead, I skipped out on the weekly services and volunteered to help around at my church. I took various leadership positions to help make a difference: I led a team to build a playground for children, took charge of the youth group and planned activities, volunteered at the day care center to look after the children who were too young to attend the services, etc. I got more fulfillment from actually doing things than just listening to thousand year old stories.
However, it wasn't until I was 18 that I realized that I came to a realization: I was doing these things for personal fulfillment, not religious fulfillment. Not once in my entire life have I, "believed in the cause," if you will. I realized that the only reason I was helping around church was because I was forced to go there every week, and I had nothing else to do. I guess this is a bit arrogant of me to say, but it also annoyed me whenever I finished a task, and people were saying things like, "Nova, you're doing God's work," or, "God willed this."
No. That was me that did this. I willed it. The playground, the children, the youth group, are all thriving because of my efforts. Their attempts to discredit my work really killed my motivation to continue working.
I also never believed in praying for miracles (or praying in general). I would much rather go out and try to make those, "miracles," happen. For factors beyond my control, I just recognize that they are beyond my control and try not to let them get to me.
One of the biggest beefs I have with religious people is when they give credit to God or whatever deity they worship when it's not warranted. For example, firefighters and police officers make their living by risking their lives to save people and property. From my experience, whenever they do the job, they don't get the thanks they deserve. The people helped usually thank God or their equivalent deity. That really bothers me when people do this, as officers/firefighters don't get the recognition they deserve when they succeed, yet all of the blame whenever they fail.
Nowadays, I don't really care what people believe, as it's not really my business. They have their beliefs and I have mine. I feel like trying to convince others that they are wrong and I am right is both condescending and a waste of time for both of us. Their beliefs come from many different reasons and life experiences, so who am I to tell them that those beliefs are wrong?
Where I draw the line is when religious scriptures are interpreted literally. Like, those events truly happened. I don't agree with those and I don't think I ever will come to an understanding. Also, any religions that decree that non-believers should be forced to convert or killed is a system that I refuse to recognize as valid.
Also, I don't agree that faith should be used as evidence to dictate how other people should live. Especially if those lifestyles don't interfere with your life in any way.
NeverSilent, If you feel embarrassed plugging yourself, that's fine. Let me do it for you: I think everyone should go play The Book of True Will, as I feel it does a great job of exploring both sides of the religious argument at different extremes. It probably won't answer questions as to who's right or wrong, but I think it will help people gain some more respect for the other sides of the argument and perhaps provoke some internal thought.
TL;DR: I like to take my life into my own hands, rather than leave even a fraction of it to a religious deity.
EDIT:
Ah yes, one thing I forgot to mention: I also draw the tolerance line when a person only has faith because they were told to believe that. If their parents raised them to have a certain faith, and they follow that faith without any kind of internal exploration of their own, then I can't stand that. Obviously, if a person is raised to believe something and comes to believe it of their own accord, then no problem. But we're given the ability to think for a reason, and it annoys me if people willingly do not use that ability.
author=Solitayre
I really liked your post, Red_Nova.
Yeah, a lot of good points and with a lot of thought put into it, too ^_^
For the most part, I don't really concern myself too much with religion. For what it is worth, though, I was raised as a Catholic, but, I'm more inclined to believe that God is kinda like an author. Like, the reason the concepts of "good" or "evil" exist is more about conflict, making interesting stories, and having opportunities to build one's character, rather than bringing one closer to God (or whatever).
I dunno, perhaps my perception is skewed, somewhat, because I'm somewhat of an author myself. For example, I refuse to believe that God loves everybody. I don't necessarily love all the characters I've made over the years. Random NPCs seem to come to the forefront of my mind, to be honest about it. That might not be the best example to use, though.
Thinking a bit more about it, perhaps the term "intelligent design" applies to what I believe?
I dunno, perhaps my perception is skewed, somewhat, because I'm somewhat of an author myself. For example, I refuse to believe that God loves everybody. I don't necessarily love all the characters I've made over the years. Random NPCs seem to come to the forefront of my mind, to be honest about it. That might not be the best example to use, though.
Thinking a bit more about it, perhaps the term "intelligent design" applies to what I believe?
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Thanks, you two! This is a pretty difficult subject for me, and I've spent a loooong time trying to figure this stuff out. Like, over a decade of thinking about it.
Now for a funny story because there will never be another opportunity to talk about it:
Because I never believed in God, I placed my beliefs purely in science. So, from middle to high school, whenever anyone asked me about my faith, I actually told them I was a Scientologist!! I came up with that term myself since, at the time, I had no idea that Scientology was already a thing, and definitely no idea what it... consisted of. It wasn't until I went to college that I realized just what it was I was saying...
I didn't have many friends around that time.
Now for a funny story because there will never be another opportunity to talk about it:
Because I never believed in God, I placed my beliefs purely in science. So, from middle to high school, whenever anyone asked me about my faith, I actually told them I was a Scientologist!! I came up with that term myself since, at the time, I had no idea that Scientology was already a thing, and definitely no idea what it... consisted of. It wasn't until I went to college that I realized just what it was I was saying...
I didn't have many friends around that time.
I identify 99% with Never_Silent's post, and 80% with both Pizza's and Red_Nova's. As such, won't really make my own post, but just echo their words.
And while I respect religious people/beliefs/stuffs, I respect them far from me. That means: Absolutely don't ask me to go to a church or to any other religious event. And don't give me a religious present. Other than that it doesn't really matter to me. I can't deny anybody else's life nor think of them as wronger than me (because nobody is right) the best I can do is invite them over to have chocolate pie.
And while I respect religious people/beliefs/stuffs, I respect them far from me. That means: Absolutely don't ask me to go to a church or to any other religious event. And don't give me a religious present. Other than that it doesn't really matter to me. I can't deny anybody else's life nor think of them as wronger than me (because nobody is right) the best I can do is invite them over to have chocolate pie.
My approach to Religion is mostly theological and political.
Basically, while I'm not a hardcore practicing Christian, I recognize the advantages to society and civilization that a Judeo-Christian-inspired culture tend to have. One reason for the dominance of the West. (Up until about 4 years from now.)
I also recognize the destruction wrought by religion in the past, and some religions in the present. I make no apologies for these views. If people can associate Dylan Roof with THE ENTIRE WHITE SOUTH, (and they do) then I could associate the worst of Islam with the entire 1 billion of the religion. I choose not to, but I still recognize the cultural weaknesses that spawn from that part of the world.
Militant atheists tend to be somewhat tyrannical. Not all, but to deny that there is an aspect of American society that is hostile to Christianity would be a tad short-sighted. Freedom of Religion, Freedom of association - these are constitutional rights that no one should be denied. Counter-culturists would do well to remember that.
Basically, while I'm not a hardcore practicing Christian, I recognize the advantages to society and civilization that a Judeo-Christian-inspired culture tend to have. One reason for the dominance of the West. (Up until about 4 years from now.)
I also recognize the destruction wrought by religion in the past, and some religions in the present. I make no apologies for these views. If people can associate Dylan Roof with THE ENTIRE WHITE SOUTH, (and they do) then I could associate the worst of Islam with the entire 1 billion of the religion. I choose not to, but I still recognize the cultural weaknesses that spawn from that part of the world.
Militant atheists tend to be somewhat tyrannical. Not all, but to deny that there is an aspect of American society that is hostile to Christianity would be a tad short-sighted. Freedom of Religion, Freedom of association - these are constitutional rights that no one should be denied. Counter-culturists would do well to remember that.
