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DAMAGE FLOOR IN RPGS, GOOD OR BAD?
Posts
unity
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CloseHere's something I've been wondering about. The old "this floor damages you when you pass over it" staple of older RPGs. From poisonous swamps, lava, electrified floors... you see this less and less in newer games in my experience, but is having Damage Floor bad or annoying from a design perspective? Is there a right and wrong way to do it?
I've been shying away from it more and more, but I recently wanted to design a Dragon Quest-like "final castle" area and it almost feels like it needs some good old damage floor. Is this just me being hungry for nostalgia or can it be used for solid gameplay, too?
I've been shying away from it more and more, but I recently wanted to design a Dragon Quest-like "final castle" area and it almost feels like it needs some good old damage floor. Is this just me being hungry for nostalgia or can it be used for solid gameplay, too?
Damage floors can be a good, simple way to have the player think and stay on their toes, rather than out of battle relaxation. I'd say use in moderation. Personally, Id only find it annoying if more than 1/3 of the entire dungeon's floors were that.
You can use them to give the player a choice between using up MP/items to heal and just walk through it or take the long way around and conserve MP. If your damage floors are timed like spikes or a swinging pendulum, it makes players pay attention and think about their next move.
As a fan of the Etrian Odyssey series, I really don't mind damage floors at all and think they add variety to otherwise repetitive dungeons. I'm not crazy about poisonous swamps where more than half of the terrain is going to damage and/or poison me.
As a fan of the Etrian Odyssey series, I really don't mind damage floors at all and think they add variety to otherwise repetitive dungeons. I'm not crazy about poisonous swamps where more than half of the terrain is going to damage and/or poison me.
Damage floors do give that "this is a scary place" feel and add an extra bit of stress to the dungeon, which is really good if you want a place to memorably stressful. However, it works best if you're going to be driving the player around certain parts of the dungeon repeatedly. For example, if you're putting items & chests behind spike floors, or unlocking doors that require backtracking, etc. I would be careful though; adding them in and forcing the player to walk through them just to progress might come off as cruel - giving the player some sort of option to avoid them may be better.
Also, if you have random battles, they will double-up with the damage floors as "painful things that will add up if I spend too much time walking around", which might totally discourage any exploration.
If you do use them, I'd make the player walk over a couple in the first minute of the dungeon, to make it obvious that the floors are dangerous. Flash the screen and play a bad sound effect to make sure the damage is obvious. You could try putting some chests on islands surrounded by spikes or something, as well.
In short, I'd be careful with them!
Also, if you have random battles, they will double-up with the damage floors as "painful things that will add up if I spend too much time walking around", which might totally discourage any exploration.
If you do use them, I'd make the player walk over a couple in the first minute of the dungeon, to make it obvious that the floors are dangerous. Flash the screen and play a bad sound effect to make sure the damage is obvious. You could try putting some chests on islands surrounded by spikes or something, as well.
In short, I'd be careful with them!
I remember a dungeon with floor damage tiles in a FF4 rom hack. I didn't have float so my only option was to tank and heal it. It became really boring and tedious, going into the menu after every danger floor to heal back up. Ultimately I just decided to run through the dungeon, running from every encounter and trucking along with everybody at 1 HP. I was always at risk eating a back attack AoE monster and wiping (I did once!) but ultimately it was faster to eat the game over than to constantly heal up. I did have to revive characters four times to be fair, but just reviving is quicker than healing everybody up. Got through the dungeon faster and with more resources at the end of it all
Danger floors are boring and tedious. I've only seen one game that was genuinely improved through them. Near the end of dungeon Doom in Ultima 5 there's an encounter room. Your party on the left with a few middle tier monsters and on the right was a swarm of more of the same monsters with a few top tier enemies in it with a forcefield separating them from you. To add a bit of spring to the player's step after a turn or two the player's side of the room gets filled in with lava. It's a hilarious move and it contributes to the battle by changing the circumstances of the fight.
If danger floors are used in interesting ways like Ultima 5, then go for it. If it's just adding tedium like FF4 then please don't. There's other ways to add danger to the dungeon itself without forcing the player to open menus to heal up just to advance. Like how about an invisible ghost that hunts the party if they dally too long and contactimmediately kills them triggers a ghost boss fight?
fuck you trebor
e: For clarity, Ultima 5 is played like the world's slowest SRPG so there's a spatial component and the map and terrain are a factor in it. It isn't a perfect comparison with FF4 for that reason.
Danger floors are boring and tedious. I've only seen one game that was genuinely improved through them. Near the end of dungeon Doom in Ultima 5 there's an encounter room. Your party on the left with a few middle tier monsters and on the right was a swarm of more of the same monsters with a few top tier enemies in it with a forcefield separating them from you. To add a bit of spring to the player's step after a turn or two the player's side of the room gets filled in with lava. It's a hilarious move and it contributes to the battle by changing the circumstances of the fight.
If danger floors are used in interesting ways like Ultima 5, then go for it. If it's just adding tedium like FF4 then please don't. There's other ways to add danger to the dungeon itself without forcing the player to open menus to heal up just to advance. Like how about an invisible ghost that hunts the party if they dally too long and contact
fuck you trebor
e: For clarity, Ultima 5 is played like the world's slowest SRPG so there's a spatial component and the map and terrain are a factor in it. It isn't a perfect comparison with FF4 for that reason.
Housekeeping
3571
I don't particularly like straight-up damage floors. Once you know "don't step on that tile" it becomes really easy to avoid them, and they become more of an annoying obstacle than adding a sense of danger. You need to do a bit more with them.
Dragon Warrior made this a bit better by placing damage tiles before a good treasure chest, and they would give you a means to avoid damage tiles later in the game, so you could get the chests early if you were tenacious enough. If you had really limited healing, such a tradeoff would mean a lot more.
Another thing you might do is have retractable spikes on a timer. This actually would give a sense of danger, as a player has to pay attention in order to pass them without taking damage.
Dragon Warrior made this a bit better by placing damage tiles before a good treasure chest, and they would give you a means to avoid damage tiles later in the game, so you could get the chests early if you were tenacious enough. If you had really limited healing, such a tradeoff would mean a lot more.
Another thing you might do is have retractable spikes on a timer. This actually would give a sense of danger, as a player has to pay attention in order to pass them without taking damage.
There were danger rooms filled with poison in KOTOR 1 + 2, but if you had enough computer skills you could disable them with "slicing", or repair the damaged vents to dispel them, or just take an all-droid party that was immune to poison through the danger room.
having ways or choices to circumvent the danger floors makes it a puzzle and a challenge, rather than just an annoyance like FF4. Even simple things like "I can take a longer path and not take any damage, or take the shortest path but take damage" is alright.
having ways or choices to circumvent the danger floors makes it a puzzle and a challenge, rather than just an annoyance like FF4. Even simple things like "I can take a longer path and not take any damage, or take the shortest path but take damage" is alright.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The main thing that's stupid about the damage tiles in FF4 is that, if you get hurt and need to heal up, the only thing you lose aside from 20 seconds of your time is a handful of your 800 potions and 75 ethers, which you can easily replace later with your millions of gil. The other thing is that there's no alternate path you can take, no puzzle you can solve, no passive skill you can spend talent points on, and no party member you can choose to bring to get through without damage. The only way to get through without damage is to level up first. That's stupid.
If your game is designed such that the "resource management" aspect of dungeon exploration actually works - like in Etrian Odyssey - then certain choices resulting in losing HP is a totally valid thing that adds depth to the dungeon exploration. But make sure that those choices are interesting, and that the player can at least partially predict the potential outcomes. And make sure it's not just an equippable item the player can wear/remove every time they step on/off the damage tiles.
If your game is designed such that the "resource management" aspect of dungeon exploration actually works - like in Etrian Odyssey - then certain choices resulting in losing HP is a totally valid thing that adds depth to the dungeon exploration. But make sure that those choices are interesting, and that the player can at least partially predict the potential outcomes. And make sure it's not just an equippable item the player can wear/remove every time they step on/off the damage tiles.
Damage floors aren't all bad, but mentally sometimes its really hard not to just rush the damn thing and heal myself later. When that's taken into account, sometimes you gotta wonder; why bother?
author=slash
Damage floors do give that "this is a scary place" feel and add an extra bit of stress to the dungeon, which is really good if you want a place to memorably stressful.
I've been asking myself, "Why do I want Damge Floor," and aside from "I remember the dread of exploring late-game DQ dungeons with Damage Floor and like that feeling" I think you've provided my main reason for wanting them, to provide a more dangerous/scary feel to the dungeon.
I think I'll brainstorm on this a bit. Maybe I can come up with something that provides that danger without the drawbacks.
author=Housekeeping
I don't particularly like straight-up damage floors. Once you know "don't step on that tile" it becomes really easy to avoid them, and they become more of an annoying obstacle than adding a sense of danger. You need to do a bit more with them.
Dragon Warrior made this a bit better by placing damage tiles before a good treasure chest, and they would give you a means to avoid damage tiles later in the game, so you could get the chests early if you were tenacious enough. If you had really limited healing, such a tradeoff would mean a lot more.
Another thing you might do is have retractable spikes on a timer. This actually would give a sense of danger, as a player has to pay attention in order to pass them without taking damage.
Hmm, I think either the retractable spikes method or maybe communicating to the player that there's a way to turn the damage floor off could be interesting. I'll keep that in mind ^_^
author=unity
I've been asking myself, "Why do I want Damge Floor," and aside from "I remember the dread of exploring late-game DQ dungeons with Damage Floor and like that feeling" I think you've provided my main reason for wanting them, to provide a more dangerous/scary feel to the dungeon.
I think I'll brainstorm on this a bit. Maybe I can come up with something that provides that danger without the drawbacks.
Well, the difference between Dragon Quest and say, Final Fantasy IV is difficulty and resources. In FFIV you can easily just rush through a damage floor, narrowly avoid party wipes in encounters, and heal up when you're safe. Doing the same thing in Dragon Quest? LOL
More on-map gameplay = more good IMHO. That includes damage floors.
I replayed my old game The Tower like a year ago and I was really impressed at how much fun the traps and hazards on the field map added to the game compared to my latter gam mak where the dungeon design was more...eh.
I replayed my old game The Tower like a year ago and I was really impressed at how much fun the traps and hazards on the field map added to the game compared to my latter gam mak where the dungeon design was more...eh.
author=Satedauthor=kentona"I'll just walk around this poiso- AND ALL THE AI HAVE GONE AND STEPPED IN IT!"
There were danger rooms filled with poison in KOTOR 1 + 2, but if you had enough computer skills you could disable them with "slicing", or repair the damaged vents to dispel them, or just take an all-droid party that was immune to poison through the danger room.
If you're going to have damage floors in a game like that, make sure the AI can competently follow the player...
hahaha I forgot about that.
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=unityWell, the difference between Dragon Quest and say, Final Fantasy IV is difficulty and resources. In FFIV you can easily just rush through a damage floor, narrowly avoid party wipes in encounters, and heal up when you're safe. Doing the same thing in Dragon Quest? LOL
I've been asking myself, "Why do I want Damge Floor," and aside from "I remember the dread of exploring late-game DQ dungeons with Damage Floor and like that feeling" I think you've provided my main reason for wanting them, to provide a more dangerous/scary feel to the dungeon.
I think I'll brainstorm on this a bit. Maybe I can come up with something that provides that danger without the drawbacks.
Yeah, I've kept healing items pretty limited, so hopefully if I go that route, it'll provide the right amount of incentive to avoid damage.
LightningLord2
230
I think you need a way the player can decide about the risk of damage floors vs. the rewards or needs skill to dodge them - a curvy path is easily followed, and a mandatory damage floor segment can feel like an arbitrary beef gate.
So, like most design decisions, think about what it meaningfully adds to your game. If you can't think of any, leave it out.
So, like most design decisions, think about what it meaningfully adds to your game. If you can't think of any, leave it out.
Rine
1378
You can also make damage floors add another element to party choice/skill choice/gear choice/etc. FF5 had the geomancer class, which naturally prevented you from taking damage from damage floors. So a good way to approach a dungeon with damage floors was to switch someone to a geomancer temporarily for that dungeon. It did help that the class wasn't bad in and of itself really, free random element attacks and all that. You can also give the players gear choices that null damage floors, letting them decide between that and something with more stats. Bravely Default does this as well with a passive skill that one character can have that nulls all damage floors, making you choose between that and a more combat active skill.
The part that really irks me is if you make them completely unavoidable, and that includes hiding treasure behind them. Its really not a choice by that point, you're going to get that treasure sooner or later. Its the first part of Last Dream that has really annoyed me, when in the volcano there are huge swaths of high damage floors with no recourse but to just tank the damage.
The part that really irks me is if you make them completely unavoidable, and that includes hiding treasure behind them. Its really not a choice by that point, you're going to get that treasure sooner or later. Its the first part of Last Dream that has really annoyed me, when in the volcano there are huge swaths of high damage floors with no recourse but to just tank the damage.
You could always up the ante by making it timed - the chance that you can get past if you time it correctly not only makes the situation more tense, worrying over getting it wrong, but also gives a chance for the player to 'get it right' and get through without taking damage. It still adds to the atmosphere, but it makes the player have to pay attention and work at it to get past, instead of just running on over. I mean, they could still do that, but the choice to time it and not take damage would make it feel more like they have more choices in the matter.
