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"FAN GAMES CAN STILL RUIN YOUR LIFE. PLEASE STOP BELIEVING OTHERWISE."
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Sailerius
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CloseAn attorney who practices video game copyright law gives a legal AMA about fangames.
Some select quotes:
Given how much misinformation and "common knowledge" there is on the subject, it's interesting to hear it from a legal expert. In particular, I find his point about why you never hear about fangames being prosecuted because they always come with an NDA interesting.
It makes me wonder where myths like "it's fair use if it's free" come from. Maybe from people who wish that's how it worked, like "it's legal to download a ROM if you delete it after 24 hours."
Some select quotes:
Joking responses you'll see aside, I've seen homes lost, families broken up, and credit ruined for life. No company owes you a cease and desist, and many are more than willing to destroy you in order to stop a competing game, as is their right. The reason you never hear about it? Because those life ruining settlements (which are better than life ruining judgments) also come with a very strict NDA. The creators disappear into quietness and don't talk about what actually happened. But it is the height of lunacy to think the worst case scenario is a cease and desist. And it doesn't matter if you don't own anything right now, judgments stay with you twenty years and they'll make sure you don't own anything in the future either.
Yes, there is no difference if your game is free or not. Whoever started this rumor is up there with "a cop has to tell you he's a cop."
Given how much misinformation and "common knowledge" there is on the subject, it's interesting to hear it from a legal expert. In particular, I find his point about why you never hear about fangames being prosecuted because they always come with an NDA interesting.
It makes me wonder where myths like "it's fair use if it's free" come from. Maybe from people who wish that's how it worked, like "it's legal to download a ROM if you delete it after 24 hours."
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Haha I was actually just about to start a topic on this. Reading through the comments now.
The NDA point was new to me, though not entirely surprising. Maybe if more people were allowed to speak about their experience, discussions would consist of more than "Companies are selfishly hogging their IPs and hate their fans!"
The NDA point was new to me, though not entirely surprising. Maybe if more people were allowed to speak about their experience, discussions would consist of more than "Companies are selfishly hogging their IPs and hate their fans!"
Pancaek
1307
Whether you're charging money or not definitely has no effect on if it's fair use, however many companies won't care unless you're selling your game. If you have to make a fan game, it's best to check the history of how the holder of what ever property you're trying to use typically handles these sorts of things.
Either way, it's a risk better not taken with large IPs, and I'm glad to see someone with legal expertise talk about it.
Either way, it's a risk better not taken with large IPs, and I'm glad to see someone with legal expertise talk about it.
Darken
3952
Best fan-game idea is to just do public domain properties. Though I think there's STILL something about not being able to use other peoples interpretations of said public IP (ie Disney's design of Snow White as Snow White). Not that RPG kids care about 100+ year old fairy tales anyway.
I don't think I could go back to using rips even if I tried, but there's no way I'm ever doing it again now.
Darken
Not that RPG kids care about 100+ year old fairy tales anyway.
because the hero's story has no relevance in modern media
re: actual topic, yeah, i also like the guy's post about "you guys are creative, so create :) " since... yeah.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This sounds like lies being used as a scare tactic by a video game company that doesn't have enough money to sue tens of thousands of fanfic writers, but has just barely enough money to pay a lawyer to spend four hours on Reddit.
Darken
3952
author=CrazeDarkenbecause the hero's story has no relevance in modern media
Not that RPG kids care about 100+ year old fairy tales anyway.
The hero's story is not a fairy tale or specific work it's a story template. Don't know what you're getting at.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=CrazeDarkenbecause the hero's story has no relevance in modern media
Not that RPG kids care about 100+ year old fairy tales anyway.
re: actual topic, yeah, i also like the guy's post about "you guys are creative, so create :) " since... yeah.
Most of the well-known fairy tales don't use Hero's Journey in any recognizable sense. It's more applicable to Grail cycle stories.
E: beaten by Darken.
Also for the vast majority of human history, there wasn't this focus on "EVERY STORY MUST BE ORIGINAL DO NOT STEAL OTHER PEOPLE'S IDEAS!!!" Everyone just used whatever and stories got cross-fertilized all over.
The idea that things have to be new comes from staking legal claim over ideas, which ends up kind of a double-edged sword. (Especially since Disney insists on never relinquishing anything to public domain, so EVERYTHING gets dragged down by the mouse.)
i'll concede the hero's journey is a poor example, but saying "rpg kids" don't like fairy tale stories is kinda bizarre to me given the fantastic nature of most rpgs, high fantasy or not.
Man i really can't figure out how reddit works. I can't even find the quotes sailerius posted. Are you meant to click on the title at the top?
EDIT: Ohh, i see them now.
EDIT: Ohh, i see them now.
Darken
3952
author=Craze
i'll concede the hero's journey is a poor example, but saying "rpg kids" don't like fairy tale stories is kinda bizarre to me given the fantastic nature of most rpgs, high fantasy or not.
My point is that a kid making an RPGmaker fangame is typically going to make something based off of Naruto or Final Fantasy or whatever not just because they're clueless about the law but they're also making them because it's whats cool/relevant to them and they love their worlds. Square RPGs and Anime are just very infectious especially to youth with access to a DIY RPG engine. I mean I'm fairly certain there are more DBZ fangames than there are Alice in Wonderland ones. So recommending them to do Macbeth instead might spur the reaction "eh that's lame." But really my suggestion to fangame creators might not be the one they particularly want to hear and that's probably the reality. But hey I'd like to be wrong.
Also I'm specifically talking about fangames, fangame creators, and intellectual property. Nothing to do with "inspiration" or "influence".
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I think it's also important that fan stuff is more valuable in a social setting. If you're just doing hobbyist stuff and want attention, it's much, much more satisfying to do fan work, since you already have an "in" with people: they know up front what kind of characters and story to expect, as opposed to an original work, which is an unknown quantity.
(You'll see the same thing in other creative settings: gorgeous original work is neglected in favor of "I know that character! Yay!" It's kind of disheartening.)
(You'll see the same thing in other creative settings: gorgeous original work is neglected in favor of "I know that character! Yay!" It's kind of disheartening.)
Shinan
4314
Lots of things can ruin one's life. A worst case scenario is always a worst case scenario whenever you are doing something that isn't allowed. This here is not admission of guilt (:P) but I've driven over the speed limit. Sometimes even so fast that I would have lost my license. A license that I need for my job. My life could easily have been ruined by not following this rule. I also have on occasion pirated movies and tv shows. Considering the fees a very small amount of people get for being caught doing that that could also very easily have ruined my life.
Every day I make decisions that could potentially ruin my life. A lot of them are more likely to ruin my life than me deciding to make a fangame.
Every day I make decisions that could potentially ruin my life. A lot of them are more likely to ruin my life than me deciding to make a fangame.
Shinan
Lots of things can ruin one's life. A worst case scenario is always a worst case scenario whenever you are doing something that isn't allowed. This here is not admission of guilt (:P) but I've driven over the speed limit. Sometimes even so fast that I would have lost my license. A license that I need for my job. My life could easily have been ruined by not following this rule. I also have on occasion pirated movies and tv shows. Considering the fees a very small amount of people get for being caught doing that that could also very easily have ruined my life.
Every day I make decisions that could potentially ruin my life. A lot of them are more likely to ruin my life than me deciding to make a fangame.
Also, most of what this lawyer's talking about is the fact that most people literally don't have the resources to fight wealthy industries, so the law may say something but most companies are rich enough to make it do something completely different at a whim.
slimeborgi
106
They'd have to pin point the person who made the game.
As with pokemon prism, it still got "leaked" and now some other group is handling it.
Companies usually don't care especially if it's an older ip, look at all the fangames on this site. Most are still here most use rips. Then think of all the mario rom hacks and such.
It's a risk but on the same level of downloading movies/music illegally IMO. I could be wrong, but when's the last time you heard anyone you personally know get in trouble for that?
No one has the time to round up all these people.(Yet) They can't find them and don't really care to try and hunt them down since it'd cost money to do that.
Pretentious people who put a face/name/location to there fan games in order to get crowd source funding should get the boot, but that's for being idiotic! They are usually scammers at that.
If there's a paper trail(they sold the game) then finding the person/group just got a little easier.
As with pokemon prism, it still got "leaked" and now some other group is handling it.
Companies usually don't care especially if it's an older ip, look at all the fangames on this site. Most are still here most use rips. Then think of all the mario rom hacks and such.
It's a risk but on the same level of downloading movies/music illegally IMO. I could be wrong, but when's the last time you heard anyone you personally know get in trouble for that?
No one has the time to round up all these people.(Yet) They can't find them and don't really care to try and hunt them down since it'd cost money to do that.
Pretentious people who put a face/name/location to there fan games in order to get crowd source funding should get the boot, but that's for being idiotic! They are usually scammers at that.
If there's a paper trail(they sold the game) then finding the person/group just got a little easier.
author=pianotmShinanAlso, most of what this lawyer's talking about is the fact that most people literally don't have the resources to fight wealthy industries, so the law may say something but most companies are rich enough to make it do something completely different at a whim.
Lots of things can ruin one's life. A worst case scenario is always a worst case scenario whenever you are doing something that isn't allowed. This here is not admission of guilt (:P) but I've driven over the speed limit. Sometimes even so fast that I would have lost my license. A license that I need for my job. My life could easily have been ruined by not following this rule. I also have on occasion pirated movies and tv shows. Considering the fees a very small amount of people get for being caught doing that that could also very easily have ruined my life.
Every day I make decisions that could potentially ruin my life. A lot of them are more likely to ruin my life than me deciding to make a fangame.
What post did you get that from? Because he makes it clear multiple times that the law as written explicitly makes fangames of all kinds illegal.
You're right, he didn't say that, but we know this is the case and we have documentation. The Star Trek: Axanar lawsuit. Here was a case of a million dollar fan movie getting sued by NBC, who publicly acknowledged that they could not have successfully sued the Axanar production if the producer hadn't allocated some of the funds for personal use.
The real reason people lose is because they're not in a fair fight. The Axanar production was rich enough to fight back.
The real reason people lose is because they're not in a fair fight. The Axanar production was rich enough to fight back.
