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A.I. GENERATION AND RMN
Posts
Liberty
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CloseIn recent years the advancements in AI technology have made creating assets (visuals and other) a lot easier for those who do not have artistic drive or talents. We've watched as AI technology has gotten better and better at using sources to reform original images into chimeras of 'art'.
The thought of people using AI to create games isn't a new one, but we decided that we needed to think about how RMN would approach the new age wave of AI generated creations - be they assets, plugins, etc.
Our decision on this boils down to the following, and it is how we will operate the site going forward when it comes to any resource, game or other additions to the site.
RMN does not support the use of any AI-generated asset - be they visual, written, musical or other - for use in projects hosted on the site.
We do not support the use of any AI-generated resources being added to the site - whether that be AI-written articles, AI-created videos, AI-generated assets, plugins or scripts that use AI-generation to create for you.
Any games/resources/etc found to be using AI-generated creations will be removed from the site.
The punishment for breaking these rules will be one warning, then a ban if you persist and press the matter further/become argumentative - that is, blow up and start flaming/harassing and bullying staff/site (want to make this point more clear - it's how you react to the denial of the game that would cause a ban, not the actual act of posting a game with AI-generated assets). Persistence in breaking rules will, as always, lead to a permanent ban.
We consider this matter closed and not open for discussion, sorry.
We ask that you keep this in mind going forward. Thank you for your time, please ask any questions you have in this thread.
To reiterate, using AI-based tools to refine your own work (things like, say, healing tool in Photoshop or editing your own creations with an AI tool (as long as you use ONLY your own creations in it)) is fine. It is using resources, code and the like that is created BY AI-generation that is the problem. We are meaning things like having a ChatGTP plugin that generates all your NPC dialogue or using AI-generation to create facesets for your game - not coded AI enemies and randomization systems in your game.
If it is used as a solution - to create FOR you instead of you using it to create yourself, then it is probably not something we allow.
If you have a question about if something of yours counts or not for the rules, you can just ask us.
The thought of people using AI to create games isn't a new one, but we decided that we needed to think about how RMN would approach the new age wave of AI generated creations - be they assets, plugins, etc.
Our decision on this boils down to the following, and it is how we will operate the site going forward when it comes to any resource, game or other additions to the site.
RMN does not support the use of any AI-generated asset - be they visual, written, musical or other - for use in projects hosted on the site.
We do not support the use of any AI-generated resources being added to the site - whether that be AI-written articles, AI-created videos, AI-generated assets, plugins or scripts that use AI-generation to create for you.
Any games/resources/etc found to be using AI-generated creations will be removed from the site.
The punishment for breaking these rules will be one warning, then a ban if you persist and press the matter further/become argumentative - that is, blow up and start flaming/harassing and bullying staff/site (want to make this point more clear - it's how you react to the denial of the game that would cause a ban, not the actual act of posting a game with AI-generated assets). Persistence in breaking rules will, as always, lead to a permanent ban.
We consider this matter closed and not open for discussion, sorry.
We ask that you keep this in mind going forward. Thank you for your time, please ask any questions you have in this thread.
To reiterate, using AI-based tools to refine your own work (things like, say, healing tool in Photoshop or editing your own creations with an AI tool (as long as you use ONLY your own creations in it)) is fine. It is using resources, code and the like that is created BY AI-generation that is the problem. We are meaning things like having a ChatGTP plugin that generates all your NPC dialogue or using AI-generation to create facesets for your game - not coded AI enemies and randomization systems in your game.
If it is used as a solution - to create FOR you instead of you using it to create yourself, then it is probably not something we allow.
If you have a question about if something of yours counts or not for the rules, you can just ask us.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Too bad, AI "artists." Now all that's left for you to make your game are RTP, RTP edits, Final Fantasy rips, commissions, asset packs, and the thousands upon thousands of free assets that kindhearted artists put forward willingly out of love for games and game dev.
I know it'll be tough, but I think you'll manage.
I know it'll be tough, but I think you'll manage.
Very proud of RMN being one of the few creatively geared sites I know of to do the right thing and outright ban that nonsense. Protecting actual artists and their work, and encouraging people to actually learn fun and useful skills or collaborate with other creators.
CrazyBabi
9612
What would happen to the games with AI-generated assets that are already on the site?
Not mine, but I noticed some.
Would there be a grace period for the dev to take down the game or replace the assets?
Not mine, but I noticed some.
Would there be a grace period for the dev to take down the game or replace the assets?
Retroactive denials of games will occur over the next few days. The devs will not be given warnings as long as the games were accepted before this topic was posted. We'll likely give about a week for people to remove their games themselves from the site if they knowingly used AI-generated assets. After that, we'll take it case by case, though if you know of some games or devs who have AI-generated stuff, feel free to either let us know or let them know about this topic. Thanks!
If they want the game back on the site they can replace the assets at any time, if they're not banned, of course.
If they want the game back on the site they can replace the assets at any time, if they're not banned, of course.
Sidewinder
2880
author=LibertyYeah, that's my cue to finally migrate over to Itch.io.
Retroactive denials of games will occur over the next few days.
I think the site's policy towards AI is well meaning but narrow minded, but retroactively removing content that had previously been accepted is too far and sets an an extremely worrying precedent.
I'm not going to sink time and effort into a gamepage if, for example, you can just decide "oh it's RPGmaker.net, so all the games should be RPGs, Visual Novels aren't allowed."
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I think there's a huge difference between disallowing genres and disallowing a system that creates assets using theft.
I agree that immediately going for the retroactive denial is a bit much. I say give devs a grace period to replace/remove all AI assets from their games, then deny these pages after a certain date has passed and said assets have not been removed.
I agree that immediately going for the retroactive denial is a bit much. I say give devs a grace period to replace/remove all AI assets from their games, then deny these pages after a certain date has passed and said assets have not been removed.
It's sort of the same thing on RMN, though, isn't it? A denied page is still extant, just can't be viewed publicly. It would work the same if an accepted game suddenly posted content that broke the rules, at least I'm pretty sure it would.
Being that it was a grey area in the rules before, it's not really the same as randomly deciding something that was outright accepted suddenly isn't allowed any more.
Being that it was a grey area in the rules before, it's not really the same as randomly deciding something that was outright accepted suddenly isn't allowed any more.
Sidewinder
2880
author=Roden
Being that it was a grey area in the rules before
While there are perfectly valid moral reasons to consider AI art theft, this site is perfectly happy to host content that uses stolen graphics and audio, with the stipulation that rips cannot come from indie games.
If I released a game with an AI generated planet texture trained off of public domain NASA satellite photos, the gamepage would be pulled immediately. If I replaced them with textures stolen from Master of Orion 3, it would be considered 100% RMN legal.
Calling it a grey area is disingenuous.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Sidewinderauthor=RodenWhile there are perfectly valid moral reasons to consider AI art theft, this site is perfectly happy to host content that uses stolen graphics and audio, with the stipulation that rips cannot come from indie games.
Being that it was a grey area in the rules before
This is the distinction right here. AI art scrapes from ALL OVER the internet, including freelance artists, often without their knowledge or consent. Using an AI art generator IS ripping from indie creations, be they games or otherwise. Not only do these generators scrape images from indie creators, but you can tweak your prompts to deliberately imitate another indie creator's style, which is all kinds of messy both legally and morally.
Sidewinder
2880
author=Red_NovaHardly.
This is the distinction right here.
AI generative tools are built into photoshop and only used content Adobe has the legal rights to. But, this isn't an argument I really care about.
I don't trust RMN any more. I've privated all my gamepages, and I have absolutely no intention of ever uploading any games in the future. You're not going to convince me.
I mean I'd love to see a day when rips also weren't allowed, but it;s not a grey area as I described because there's literally a rule about what is and isn't permissible, even if it's somewhat informal. Besides that, the fact that the community has been gradually moving away from that mindset for years and years now while promoting creator-made assets, freeware stuff, etc, makes an outright ruling less necessary.
If rips were suddenly becoming a big thing right now as AI is I would expect the policy to be the same as what's happening here, and it would be just as justified. The fact that its so baked into the DNA of the community means that we can't do anything retroactively at this point, is all. Getting out ahead of the next issue before it becomes ingrained is just smart.
Yes, god forbid you just make your own content or collaborate with other people, something this site has pushed and supported for like more than a decade at this point
If rips were suddenly becoming a big thing right now as AI is I would expect the policy to be the same as what's happening here, and it would be just as justified. The fact that its so baked into the DNA of the community means that we can't do anything retroactively at this point, is all. Getting out ahead of the next issue before it becomes ingrained is just smart.
I don't trust RMN any more. I've privated all my gamepages, and I have absolutely no intention of ever uploading any games in the future. You're not going to convince me.
Yes, god forbid you just make your own content or collaborate with other people, something this site has pushed and supported for like more than a decade at this point
Sidewinder
2880
author=Roden1. None of the games I've removed actually used AI generated art. I'm not leaving because AI art is now banned. I'm leaving because I don't trust the site administration any more.
Yes, god forbid you just make your own content or collaborate with other people, something this site has pushed and supported for like more than a decade at this point
2. I do make my own graphics. I'm a 3D artist:
https://youtu.be/zWU_wJXlUqA?si=JjRtkz9Eosd0uyIf
https://youtu.be/Vgsw1O--HUU?si=cvHJHKLQVWnQx3CK
https://youtu.be/m1NzNtsb67k?si=PdXOIx2Mfcy6rSi3
https://youtu.be/FuYtgNvqx2M?si=E6mYxoKCrzYA4OJQ
3. I actually do commission artists regularly, usually for portraits, thought lately I've been hiring someone to do spaceship concept art.
author=Sidewinderauthor=LibertyYeah, that's my cue to finally migrate over to Itch.io.
Retroactive denials of games will occur over the next few days.
I think the site's policy towards AI is well meaning but narrow minded, but retroactively removing content that had previously been accepted is too far and sets an an extremely worrying precedent.
I'm not going to sink time and effort into a gamepage if, for example, you can just decide "oh it's RPGmaker.net, so all the games should be RPGs, Visual Novels aren't allowed."
We've always retroactively denied things that didn't fit the rules. Games that we learned broke rules, for example - Hawkman is one that jumps to mind right away - or had stolen assets. This isn't new - we've always done this. When we decided to remove games with hate speech and homophobia, no-one said a word because it made sense. When we deny games that steal from others' work (including games that were stolen from other sites and hosted here by thieves) it makes perfect sense. Because rules do change as we grow and as new sensibilities become the norm.
It's not so deep. We're not deleting pages, we're denying them. The devs will get a message telling them why, allowing them to change what AI-gen they used in order to get the page reaccepted, as has been the case in some respects in the past (like when a game slipped through the queue by accident, etc).
Also, there's a hell of a difference between knowing a game ripped graphics from FF5 or Phantasia or other snes titles (which we do ask people credit when they do so) and an AI generated image that chimera'd together a bunch of base assets into one without knowing just where the content came from and thus is impossible to correctly credit.
Sidewinder
2880
author=Liberty
We've always retroactively denied things that didn't fit the rules. Games that we learned broke rules, for example - Hawkman is one that jumps to mind right away - or had stolen assets. This isn't new.
This becomes an issue when you can create new rules, that are then also retroactively applied.
If a gamepage is accepted, but then is later found to contain really edgy dialogue that violates site hatespeech rules, that's understandable.
If a gamepage is accepted and the game conforms to RMN's rules at the time it was uploaded, but then a later rule makes it illegal, that's kind of another issue entirely.
I mean this site is also run by volunteers. If you're expecting us to be 100% on top of every change the games industry and being ahead of every potentially controversial facet so that when we make a decision it's before anything has ever been accepted... well.
We are hobbyists too trying our best.
AI gen assets are sketchy af, and ot just morally but legally.
The use of rips is more akin to fanart, or sampling for music. Deliberately making something new out of existing works. And they are (usally) very clear where they are sourced.
AI is indiscriminate and the intent being it is the antithesis of art.
Plus I don't want RMN to be sued by Stephen King
We are hobbyists too trying our best.
AI gen assets are sketchy af, and ot just morally but legally.
The use of rips is more akin to fanart, or sampling for music. Deliberately making something new out of existing works. And they are (usally) very clear where they are sourced.
AI is indiscriminate and the intent being it is the antithesis of art.
Plus I don't want RMN to be sued by Stephen King
Of course we can always create new rules - society changes. Things that weren't seen as an issue back in the day have been removed from the site nowdays because we realised, hey, racism isn't right even if it's 'joking'. Hey, sexist rants about women belonging to men isn't right, even if framed as comedy. Hey, hating on trans people isn't right, even if it's 'lol funny hahah look how edgy'.
Rules change, and sometimes we have to retroactively trim that which no longer fits. We don't do it often, and thankfully there's not much in the way of AI-generated stuff on the site (which is why we're tackling it reasonably early into the situation, so we don't have 100s of games being denied in the future), but sometimes it does happen.
Rules change, and sometimes we have to retroactively trim that which no longer fits. We don't do it often, and thankfully there's not much in the way of AI-generated stuff on the site (which is why we're tackling it reasonably early into the situation, so we don't have 100s of games being denied in the future), but sometimes it does happen.
author=Sidewinder
If a gamepage is accepted and the game conforms to RMN's rules at the time it was uploaded, but then a later rule makes it illegal, that's kind of another issue entirely.
I mean, what's the alternative? Never updating the rules? They have to do the best they can to adapt, things are going to evolve and change over time and reacting is the only way to manage it.
Besides, the pages aren't destroyed or just like immediately deleted, the people have a chance to adapt to the rules and make that decision themselves.
Sidewinder
2880
author=kentonaSame.
We are hobbyists too trying our best.
That being said, I'm serious about moving over to Itch.io and this will probably be my last post on the site. This is just too big of a red flag for me to ignore.
author=Liberty
and sometimes we have to retroactively trim that which no longer fits.
You've done let's plays of some of my games in the past, as part of event streams. I'd appreciate it if you'd remove them. Please and thank you.
