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FEMALES AND GAMING - #1REASONWHY
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CloseAs far as sources/examples of harassment go, I linked an absolute ton of examples in my opening post, all which took place in the past year.
As far as anecdotal evidence goes, a friend of mine is often accused of being the "favorite bitch" of my old professor by her male classmates because her team projects often get good scores. That class is about 1:15 female/male as well, but that's not atypical.
As far as anecdotal evidence goes, a friend of mine is often accused of being the "favorite bitch" of my old professor by her male classmates because her team projects often get good scores. That class is about 1:15 female/male as well, but that's not atypical.
author=AcraAs far as what I've seen of the posts subsequent to yours, nobody's called you a "liar" (that one post was just an expression of "wow... this shit actually happens?" rather than calling you a liar, there was no ill will), "worthless", "stupid", or that you "enjoy being attacked".
So I’ve been told ‘boo hoo suck it up’, been called a liar, worthless, stupid, and that I enjoy being attacked because it makes me ‘feel good’. If iddalai’s getting ripped apart like this, there’s nothing worthwhile I can say to help.
Good job for forcing a female developer out of the community in a topic about tolerance.
If anything, we sympathize with your plight and the staff here have asked you to report any and all such grievous acts so that they can help you both as one mature person to another as well as answering to their obligations to properly police this community.
But just so you know, if you're going to treat others like crap then you will get treated like crap in return. You antagonized us without cause with your post and you aren't helping neither yourself nor other women with that hostile attitude.
Gender Equality isn't something where men cater to women or vice versa, equality is where both men and women are treated completely equally without bias; aka if you treat me like crap then I'll treat you like crap, but if you treat me respectfully then I'll treat you respectfully as well, and I will expect the same from you and everyone else.
author=emmychI understand your point and do wish mental pressuring like that wouldn't exist. While there is some scientific evidence that suggests slight-but-inherent differences between male and female brains, that is still absolutely no reason to force people one way or the other; we're born with free will and we should be able to use that to its fullest.
I dunno, growing up in a society that is constantly telling you that you're a hysterical, emotional, irrational other with a brain unfit for rational, mathematic thought is kind of a difficult barrier to overcome.
That said though, the fact remains that women are able to try programming just as easily as men do at least physically. Everyone can open Notepad, look up some programming languages on Google, and then start programming; I know I did just that when I first wanted to create web pages of my own! This was the crux of the original argument, at least with how I interpreted it, and I simply wanted to point out the fallacy of that argument.
author=slashphoenixI'd personally like to see those classmates get kicked out or otherwise get a stern lecturing. Jealousy is one thing but harrassment is another entirely.
As far as anecdotal evidence goes, a friend of mine is often accused of being the "favorite bitch" of my old professor by her male classmates because her team projects often get good scores. That class is about 1:15 female/male as well, but that's not atypical.
There actually aren't that many differences between men and women mentally. Men and women both, by and large, want and desire the same things. Philosophies dictating that they are different, think differently, act differently, want different things are mostly propagated by pop psychologists who have no scientific basis for their claims but have made a lot of money by convincing people they'll never understand their husbands/wives without buying their book. And thus, an entire generation of young people have grown up thinking men and women think in ways completely alien to each other.
This thread is becoming tiring. Here's a hint. If you are a man, and you are lecturing women on why they act a certain way or how they should react to gender inequality, you are probably part of the problem.
This thread is becoming tiring. Here's a hint. If you are a man, and you are lecturing women on why they act a certain way or how they should react to gender inequality, you are probably part of the problem.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=emmych
I dunno, growing up in a society that is constantly telling you that you're a hysterical, emotional, irrational other with a brain unfit for rational, mathematic thought is kind of a difficult barrier to overcome.
I would be really interested to hear some key memories you have of being told that. I've definitely heard that females are more emotional due to hormonal differences, but never that males are more rational - it's always emotional vs aggressive, not emotional vs. rational.
So I guess, let's say you get in a fight. In theory, in the absense of any other factors like "personality," (which as we all know is a non-factor anyway, because everyone of a single gender acts exactly the same) would that make males more rational when choosing who to protect, but females more rational when choosing who to attack? STAT PENALTIES ARE BALANCED! FEMALES MAKE BETTER COMMANDOS AND MALES MAKE BETTER SENTINELS!
whoa sorry i got kinda off track
eplipswich
2728
Acra, I think you are reading too much into things. That is unhealthy. Like I said, tell the staff your problems and message them. Don't just complain here and expect people to help you. You're not doing yourself a favor here.
May I add that not everyone will criticize you. If you have problems, address them to the staff! And I am totally against discrimination as well.
May I add that not everyone will criticize you. If you have problems, address them to the staff! And I am totally against discrimination as well.
author=Sailerius
Please read the article and study before claiming it's invalid without providing a reason why it is.
Look, I stated that your article proves nothing! There are 498 000 000 pages out there about this issue, that doesn't make them right. You ask me to study the article before claiming it's invalid, I ask you to prove it's valid before claiming I'm wrong.
Just notice how I'm ignored here, I specified on my post that I think education along with society is one of the major issues that promotes sexism, but LockeZ asks Sailerius about that and Sailerius states that's his position, even though that's what I said in my post.
Crazy, huh?
author=KingArthur
To just dismiss everything as "men just suck at writing about girls" is nothing short of retarded.
Did I ever said that? I didn't. What I said is that men can never write as well about women, and vice-versa.
Plus, notice the sentence you used: "men just suck at writing about girls". As an example you could also have used "women just suck at writing about boys" or "people just suck at writing about the opposite gender", but you didn't, because this issue is deep within our roots and you even used "girls" instead of women. This could mean you think women are all girls, I say you were only outraged because it was implied that "men" sucked at writing about them. I wonder if you would be so outraged if I had said it the other way around.
Wait, I did, if you read my post I say: "vice-versa".
author=KingArthur
This is a problem with the audience rather than the creators. When (some of) the audience loses the ability to differentiate real-world from fiction, we should be fixing that problem rather than suddenly saying that sexism is destroying the world.
For the record, I'm not saying everyone can't differentiate real-world from fiction. Those of us that lead healthy lives enjoy our entertainment while interacting with the real world in a mature and sensible way. However, there certainly are people that probably shouldn't partake in fiction for the sake of everyone else.
The audience and the creators are correlated. The audience will buy what's for sale and the creators will create what sells.
Also, independently of being able to differentiate real-world from fiction, every human being if influentiated by several factors while growing up and living in society, these factors change people, like I mentioned: education, school, films, books, etc.
We are all changed by our surroundings, if you have bad surroundings then it will change you for worse. What I mentioned earlier is an example of that, you don't even notice it.
author=KingArthur
Honestly, stating that someone of one gender can't write well about the other gender simply because of their gender is flat out discrimination itself and an insult to writers everywhere.
I agree that poor writing is also an issue when creating characters of any gender. But I never said "that someone of one gender can't write well about the other gender", what I said was "that someone of one gender can't write AS well about the other gender" slight difference, but it's there.
author=KingArthur
How to Program 101:
1. Open Notepad (or plain text editor of your choice).
2. Obtain reference material (lots of free stuff on the internet).
3. ????
4. PROFIT!
There's a flaw there, you forgot step 5
- Finding someone to give you work and money.
That someone may only choose to hire you based on your gender and not on actual merit. I've seen it happen in my workplace. Women may learn how to program by themselves, but that doesn't mean someone will hire them.
author=KingArthur
The original argument was that women "aren't even given a chance to try out programming". "Trying out" programming is as simple as what I stated above, so that's what I wanted to point out; there's nothing barring women from trying programming as far as I can tell.
After dealing with male programmers (be it in school or anywhere else) that behave improperly with them they may never want to even try programming.
author=harmonic
By that same token, we also fire engineers who can't hack it. Yes, we've fired female engineers and male engineers alike. And to claim that that had anything to do with the configuration of genitalia is beyond absurd. We expect someone making 6 figures to have those rare and valuable skills we need.
You're confused, just because of what I said it doesn't mean I think you do that too. But just because you actually hire people by their merit it also doesn't mean that every other company does that. I think you're only seeing this issue by your company's perspective, you seem to think that I'm implying you fired people because of their gender, I'm not. But once again, just because you don't, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've seen it happen. It seems you're only doing this to defend yourself, but no one is attacking you.
author=LockeZ
You start a debate, and then when someone takes the other side of the debate, that's enough to "force you out of the community"? The hell? That doesn't even make sense.
No, it makes sense, especially when valid points have been raised and promptly dismissed with no real reason. If one side is mostly ignored then it's not a debate anymore, it's a one side conversation. And in that case, what's the point? If you are already decided on a veredict then there's no point.
Want some examples? More than half of my original post was ignored or misread as you can see by my some above quotes.
To Solitayre, emmych, Acra and slashphoenix: thanks for existing! For the first time in years there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not a flamethrower.
I'm done in this topic.
Acra
332
@LockeZ - I’m just so... tired. Not everyone is obsessed with criticizing and belittling like you are, and I find your fascination with it outright disturbing. It’s an endless, inescapable struggle against a force that refuses to listen or understand. I just want to find a place where I can work in peace, knowing that this spectre isn’t hanging over me, let alone actively encouraged. Alas, that will never happen. I really didn’t want to post in the first place, but I felt morally obligated to. Having to show that this isn’t the nice, egalitarian little community some of you think it is.
@KingArthur
Enjoy being attacked?
The other two are a bit more broad. I've taken a fair bit of offense to your own 'programming is sooo easy to learn' quips for starters, and Sailerius and harmonic have said some extremely broad and hurtful things.
@KingArthur
author=Mr_DetectiveNote who he quotes it as from. Really, he's not calling me a liar? He's calling me far worse than that, actually.author=TrololololI checked your profile, and I believe this has got to be a joke... :-?
I’ve personally received a sickening amount of death and rape threats for the extremely few times I’ve surfaced here (My personal favourite is ‘how often did you have to suck kentona’s cock to get that piece of shit on the front page’).
Enjoy being attacked?
author=harmonic
people love being offended, so they seek it out. It gives you righteous indignation, which feels good. It also gives you sympathy and support system. There's like no downside to it.
The other two are a bit more broad. I've taken a fair bit of offense to your own 'programming is sooo easy to learn' quips for starters, and Sailerius and harmonic have said some extremely broad and hurtful things.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
@ididilai: No one is intentionally ignoring your side. If I'm ignoring or misreading any of what you said, it's only because your posts are 12 paragraphs long and it's impossible to respond to it all at once or even read through it all. So I will either pick one point to respond to, or I'll respond to a much shorter post by someone else, since that's easier to do. Sorry, the thread moves too fast to do much more.
You said earlier you were genuinely shocked at the lack of sensitivity in this topic, but I'd just like to point out that that's an asinine thing to say in a debate topic, especially one where most of the people involved are being fairly clinical and detached in their arguments (which is ideal in any argument).
(Is it ironic if the people on the pro-feminist side of the argument are getting emotional, and the people on the anti-feminist side are staying more rational? hur hur hur hur sexist joke i'm a terrible human being)
@Acra: I've never belittled anyone in my life. At what point did I criticize or belittle anyone in this thread? I criticize people's work in game design threads, but only for the purpose of helping them improve. All I'm asking in this thread is that if you want me to change my mind to believe your points, you be willing to debate them logically. I don't have anything against your beliefs. I only have something against your apparent hostility against the very act of talking. No one did anything in this thread except talk about ideas; that's something that should never be discouraged, right? If you don't talk about your ideas, you'll never get new ones. And then you'll never grow. That's why you brought forth your own ideas, right? To help other people grow? But then when they try to get you to explain them, you act like that's unacceptable, instead of explaining to them what you meant and why it's true.
You said earlier you were genuinely shocked at the lack of sensitivity in this topic, but I'd just like to point out that that's an asinine thing to say in a debate topic, especially one where most of the people involved are being fairly clinical and detached in their arguments (which is ideal in any argument).
(Is it ironic if the people on the pro-feminist side of the argument are getting emotional, and the people on the anti-feminist side are staying more rational? hur hur hur hur sexist joke i'm a terrible human being)
@Acra: I've never belittled anyone in my life. At what point did I criticize or belittle anyone in this thread? I criticize people's work in game design threads, but only for the purpose of helping them improve. All I'm asking in this thread is that if you want me to change my mind to believe your points, you be willing to debate them logically. I don't have anything against your beliefs. I only have something against your apparent hostility against the very act of talking. No one did anything in this thread except talk about ideas; that's something that should never be discouraged, right? If you don't talk about your ideas, you'll never get new ones. And then you'll never grow. That's why you brought forth your own ideas, right? To help other people grow? But then when they try to get you to explain them, you act like that's unacceptable, instead of explaining to them what you meant and why it's true.
See, that's exactly the problem LockeZ. You aren't trying to be offensive. You just don't even realize that the things you are saying could be construed as offensive. It doesn't even occur to you. In your mind, this is just the way things are, and anyone who doesn't agree should just suck it up. The inherent sexism in your arguments is invisible to you. You aren't even aware of it.
This is typically referred to as "privilege." As a man, you have certain privileges, even ones you may not notice, that women don't have. But you make the assumption that your understanding and experience in the world is universal. If anyone has a different life experience than you, they must just be doin' it wrong.
But you don't understand the issue of sexism, and probably never will, because it's not something you can ever really have the experience of. Thinking that you understand it and telling the ladies the way things really are just comes across as insane to me. The same with Sailerius or other people who claimed they don't notice sexism happening in their fields. It's easy to not notice sexism when it isn't happening to you.
It's not a matter of being rational, it's a matter of understanding the argument, which you don't.
Doesn't help that saying stuff like this suggests you aren't actually taking your opponents' position seriously.
This is typically referred to as "privilege." As a man, you have certain privileges, even ones you may not notice, that women don't have. But you make the assumption that your understanding and experience in the world is universal. If anyone has a different life experience than you, they must just be doin' it wrong.
But you don't understand the issue of sexism, and probably never will, because it's not something you can ever really have the experience of. Thinking that you understand it and telling the ladies the way things really are just comes across as insane to me. The same with Sailerius or other people who claimed they don't notice sexism happening in their fields. It's easy to not notice sexism when it isn't happening to you.
It's not a matter of being rational, it's a matter of understanding the argument, which you don't.
LockeZ
(Is it ironic if the people on the pro-feminist side of the argument are getting emotional, and the people on the anti-feminist side are staying more rational? hur hur hur hur sexist joke i'm a terrible human being)
Doesn't help that saying stuff like this suggests you aren't actually taking your opponents' position seriously.
author=iddalaiI admit "girls" was a bad choice of words, my apologies. Allow me to rephrase: "Men just suck at writing about women." I'm not sure why I used "girls" there in hindsight really, I've been using "women" everywhere else so it must have been a slip of the typing fingers.
Did I ever said that? I didn't. What I said is that men can never write as well about women, and vice-versa.
Plus, notice the sentence you used: "men just suck at writing about girls". As an example you could also have used "women just suck at writing about boys" or "people just suck at writing about the opposite gender", but you didn't, because this issue is deep within our roots and you even used "girls" instead of women. This could mean you think women are all girls, I say you were only outraged because it was implied that "men" sucked at writing about them. I wonder if you would be so outraged if I had said it the other way around.
Wait, I did, if you read my post I say: "vice-versa".
Now that aside, what are you trying to argue here? That I'm refusing saying to say "women just suck at writing about men"? Regardless, I'm not showing favoritism to one gender or the other and you're not going to get anything out of me from trying to pull a "gotcha!" on that angle.
author=iddalaiMy argument is that simply calling games sexist and then subsequently removing them doesn't solve the actual problem of people being sexist. The creators and industry behind them aren't entirely out of fault, true, but simply piling all the blame on them won't fix anything either.
The audience and the creators are correlated. The audience will buy what's for sale and the creators will create what sells.
Also, independently of being able to differentiate real-world from fiction, every human being if influentiated by several factors while growing up and living in society, these factors change people, like I mentioned: education, school, films, books, etc.
We are all changed by our surroundings, if you have bad surroundings then it will change you for worse. What I mentioned earlier is an example of that, you don't even notice it.
Really, the only true answer as far as I can see is to educate people and make it clear when something is fine to be played for laughs and when it's definitely not.
author=iddalaiI admit I missed the "as" there, sorry 'bout that. However, my original point still stands because I feel you place too much emphasis on the gender of the writer rather than their actual skill. Good writing takes genuine skill and effort, us game devs should know this better than anyone short of other writers, and ultimately gender will play a minimal factor in how the writing comes out. Yes, I agree with you that men can't completely understand women and vice-versa, but good writing is indeed possible and credit is due where credit is due.
I agree that poor writing is also an issue when creating characters of any gender. But I never said "that someone of one gender can't write well about the other gender", what I said was "that someone of one gender can't write AS well about the other gender" slight difference, but it's there.
author=iddalaiAlright, did I just misinterpret the original query or something? Because everyone, including you, who has responded to my little comment on this has been going off on tangents about professional women in the workplace.
There's a flaw there, you forgot step 5
- Finding someone to give you work and money.
That someone may only choose to hire you based on your gender and not on actual merit. I've seen it happen in my workplace. Women may learn how to program by themselves, but that doesn't mean someone will hire them.
The original argument was, and I quote, "Many times women aren't even given a chance to try out programming, so they won't even know it they like it." I put forth the counterargument that programming itself is very easy to pick up and get started on. Notepad, reference material, some creativity, and boom you're programming! What's so hard to understand about this? Is there really a practical reason that women can't open Notepad, grab some reference material, get creative, and go off writing code?
It should also be made clear that being a programmer does not require you to be making money off of what you're programming. I've never took on any commercial jobs to date with regards to programming and I still consider myself a programmer (an amateur programmer, mind you). If you were talking about professional programmers specifically then you will have a point, but you were talking about programmers in general and I'm going to call out the fallacy you put forth on that one.
Also,
After dealing with male programmers (be it in school or anywhere else) that behave improperly with them they may never want to even try programming.This has nothing to do with women not being given "a chance to try out programming".
I won't reply to the rest of your post because you mis-quoted me while you were writing it. I'll let Harm and LockeZ, who wrote the two quoted posts respectively, get back to you on those.
-----
author=AcraApparently I misread who was being quoted. My apologies! That aside however, I still stand by my original statement that nobody's called you a liar, nor "far worse" as you put it. We might have differing opinions from you but we have most definitely not been offensive or insulting to you in this discussion (as far as I can tell) and I believe it is within our right to expect you to treat us in kind.
Note who he quotes it as from. Really, he's not calling me a liar? He's calling me far worse than that, actually.
EDIT: Noticed the rest of your post was also directed to me. I was short on time so I guess I'd missed it (plus there was that quote from Harm). I'll address it below:
Enjoy being attacked?Alright, that one I can't find a justifiable reason for. Granted I'm sure Harm doesn't mean any ill will towards women judging from his subsequent posts, I understand how that statement might have been a bit out of line there. I'll let Harm take the details though as he was the writer and not me.author=harmonic
people love being offended, so they seek it out. It gives you righteous indignation, which feels good. It also gives you sympathy and support system. There's like no downside to it.
The other two are a bit more broad. I've taken a fair bit of offense to your own 'programming is sooo easy to learn' quips for starters, and Sailerius and harmonic have said some extremely broad and hurtful things.First off, I said that programming was easy to get started in, I never said nor intended to say that learning to program was easy. How hard learning to program is will ultimately depend on the person; I personally find programming ultimately a question of logic, but some may find that hard or even entirely different and they aren't at any fault for finding it so and I never pressed assumptions on the matter. I merely stated that the act of programming was as simple as opening Notepad and writing code and that there was nothing I could see that would bar women from that act short of their own unwillingness.
Also, it would help to specifiy what it was that you found offensive from our posts. We can address why we said what we said, apologize if apologies are called for, and debate this current topic like mature, sensible adults instead of flinging mud.
I'm personally for gender equality in the most literal of terms, as my previous posts would imply, and I'd like to continue discussing this topic in a mature, sensible, constructive manner if it is possible to do so.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I wasn't actually arguing on either side regarding sexism, though. I did ask several times for clarification, further explanation, and evidence from some of the people who were saying that sexism is a problem.
But I never suggested they were wrong. I did the opposite: I asked them to explain why they were right, so that I could understand. Repeatedly. And instead of doing so, they told me that it was unacceptable of me to ask them for clarification.
I also asked them to calm the fuck down, and pointed out that the entire purpose of this thread (any thread) is to show both sides of the argument and debate until you figure out which one is correct. But read my posts: I never once made a point in favor of either side. I was just defending the anti-feminist people's right to actually post in this thread, because Acra and Iddalai started attacking that right. I would have probably made a point eventually if the thread hadn't been derailed by this nonsense about "the idea of discussing things is offensive and I'm leaving RMN because threads exist!".
But I never suggested they were wrong. I did the opposite: I asked them to explain why they were right, so that I could understand. Repeatedly. And instead of doing so, they told me that it was unacceptable of me to ask them for clarification.
I also asked them to calm the fuck down, and pointed out that the entire purpose of this thread (any thread) is to show both sides of the argument and debate until you figure out which one is correct. But read my posts: I never once made a point in favor of either side. I was just defending the anti-feminist people's right to actually post in this thread, because Acra and Iddalai started attacking that right. I would have probably made a point eventually if the thread hadn't been derailed by this nonsense about "the idea of discussing things is offensive and I'm leaving RMN because threads exist!".
My rule of thumb is: I have no problem saying things that people are offended with, but typically, I do try and think about who might be offended, why they'll be offended, whether I meant to offend them, and whether I care or not.
Please, everybody. There are some clear-cut cases of blatant sexism in the games industry in my original post, there has been more than one event grasping for equality recently; I will find more examples if you ask me.
You're allowed to disagree whether sexism exists in the industry today. You can even argue that sexism may not even be bad for the industry, although you're gonna have a hell of a hard time convincing me. Still, I would love to discuss what us soldiers of indie fortune can do to curb thisbullshit phenomenon, or at least how we can not make it worse.
Please, everybody. There are some clear-cut cases of blatant sexism in the games industry in my original post, there has been more than one event grasping for equality recently; I will find more examples if you ask me.
You're allowed to disagree whether sexism exists in the industry today. You can even argue that sexism may not even be bad for the industry, although you're gonna have a hell of a hard time convincing me. Still, I would love to discuss what us soldiers of indie fortune can do to curb this
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Well you can make games that are less sexist, but then you're just affecting your own games. If you want to affect other people's games also, you have to tell them so! Post in their game profiles, on their screenshots, in their feedback threads. Do it publically, so that your comments are seen by as many people as possible. Start threads to raise awareness of the issue. Make sure they are debate threads, get people to actually think through the issue and how they feel about it instead of just reading about it. When talking to an individual, make sure you present it as a debate rather than a sermon. Make sure you don't come across as believing you are infallible, so that they are willing to engage with you. The fact that they are now thinking and talking about sexism drastically outweighs the fact that some of them will take the other side. It gives you a chance to convince them of why their beliefs are wrong (and also gives you a chance to grow as well, if some of your own reasoning is incorrect).
Basically: this thread so far has already done more to combat the negative effects of sexism than any one game ever could.
Basically: this thread so far has already done more to combat the negative effects of sexism than any one game ever could.
author=Acraauthor=harmonic
people love being offended, so they seek it out. It gives you righteous indignation, which feels good. It also gives you sympathy and support system. There's like no downside to it.
The other two are a bit more broad. I've taken a fair bit of offense to your own 'programming is sooo easy to learn' quips for starters, and Sailerius and harmonic have said some extremely broad and hurtful things.
Hurtful? See, if this is what counts as "hurtful" then it's hard to take your claims of victimhood seriously. No one is this thread is attacking you, pretty much everyone is trying to reason and make sense of it all.
emmych
817
author=LockeZHey LockeZ here is a quote from a fairly well known feminist blogger:
(Is it ironic if the people on the pro-feminist side of the argument are getting emotional, and the people on the anti-feminist side are staying more rational? hur hur hur hur sexist joke i'm a terrible human being)
author=Melissa McEwanHere is the entire blogpost, if you're interested. It's pretty much hitting the nail on the head.
There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.
Please go read that. Please think it over. Tell me again why it's a mystery that this thread would make me and other women reading it the slightest bit angry.
Also, Solitayre, were I not already engaged, I would fucking kiss you right now. ;v; <3
@harmonic: people explaining away oppression and telling you that you're too sensitive and that science backs up how irrational you are being is pretty fucking hurtful. Sexism is a legit thing that all women suffer, no matter their field, no matter where they choose to exist, and it always, always hurts. It's even worse when people look at you and say "PFFFT WHATEVER YOU ARE TOO SENSITIVE" when you point out that someone has said something that is pretty personal and hurtful, simply because they don't understand why it would be so.
I mean, think about it: you get to walk away from this thread later and continue to enjoy your existence, unaffected by this. I don't. I have to carry this stuff with me every day, because it's my life. Simply because I exist as a woman, I have to put up with sexist bullshit everyday. I don't get to take a break. I don't get to walk away.
And when people dismiss that burden, it really, really hurts. Obviously you can't understand that.
author=emmych
@harmonic: people explaining away oppression and telling you that you're too sensitive and that science backs up how irrational you are being is pretty fucking hurtful. Sexism is a legit thing that all women suffer, no matter their field, no matter where they choose to exist, and it always, always hurts. It's even worse when people look at you and say "PFFFT WHATEVER YOU ARE TOO SENSITIVE" when you point out that someone has said something that is pretty personal and hurtful, simply because they don't understand why it would be so.
I mean, think about it: you get to walk away from this thread later and continue to enjoy your existence, unaffected by this. I don't. I have to carry this stuff with me every day, because it's my life. Simply because I exist as a woman, I have to put up with sexist bullshit everyday. I don't get to take a break. I don't get to walk away.
And when people dismiss that burden, it really, really hurts. Obviously you can't understand that.
It really has nothing to do with the bland accusation of "ur too sensitive." Give me and my gender a little credit. :)
It's about cutting through the BS and getting to the truth, and it's impossible to establish true, objective reason when someone takes the automatic standpoint of a victim. It grants someone special rights that the other people involved do not enjoy. You get to throw accusations with impunity. It's been said that men will never understand a woman's mind. It's been strongly implied that men never suffer from any form of discrimination( as in "Obviously you can't understand that.") And these accusations come from the "victim"s, and are therefore, spawned from righteous indignation. You have the expectation that the non-victims will auto-accept this indignation and grant you your vindication.
Here's the thing. EVERYONE has been subject to some form of discrimination. Some forms are more overt, and more sensational, and thus more accepted by societal status quo, than others. For instance, being fat is a very poor defense in our popular culture, but using race or sexual preference as a defense is almost unopposed and is an automatic, ironclad path to moral superiority. That's just one example. Yes, fat is something you can change, but discrimination is discrimination. Just about anything that sets you apart from someone else can be used.
Yes, I'm an average white straight male. Society demands upon us an unreasonable model of stoic masculinity, skill with machinery, etc, that I and many men cannot fulfill. Being white, pop culture tells me that I'm dorky, uptight, can't dance, have no rhythm, am "dull" (as in the infamous "dull white guy" phrase,) and so on. I'm also a redhead. Thus, I don't fit in quite as well as other more common hair colors. Since I'm a man, I'm told I'm not supposed to enjoy feminine things. I'm not supposed to be scared of bugs, I'm not supposed to cry. There are no support groups, organizations, nothing whatsoever specifically targeted to empowering white straight men (those of us who aren't the supposed top 1% of society) as there are for every other race/sexual preference/gender. And your response to that is that "we don't need it." Right. We're told we're born entitled and privileged, don't have to work as hard, and don't deserve any breaks. Any suffering or failure is our own fault (not our race/gender, and any success is our race/gender's doing. Normally this would be fine, as everyone on earth should be judged by the content of their character, but obviously this is not reality, and when someone gets bombarded with empowerment of every single demographic other than white men on a constant basis, it gets a tad annoying.
Of course, I can choose to ignore the status quo, and not identify myself by the configuration of my genitalia or the color of my skin. Try *not* being a victim, and you will find how easily these, yes, very real acts of discrimination, will bounce off of you. My wife is a Peruvian immigrant - when people say ugly things like "she probably can't speak English" I get ridiculously angry on her behalf, but she shrugs it off, knowing full well it's just an uninformed passing comment by a person who doesn't matter.
Yes of course ugly things happen. And no one is denying that that sucks. We've all felt it. However, I'm referring to the reasonable people in this very thread, who are civilly trying to find a common ground with you. I want you to see past the "oh my god being a woman is my plight" and at least acknowledge that you're in a safe place, among friends, even if we don't automatically fall in line with everything you're saying.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
OK. You want me to be serious in this topic? You want me to stop playing the devil's advocate, stop making jokes to lighten the mood? Fine. Here.
Don't tell me I obviously can't understand.
It's not like I've never been persecuted for anything. Being female isn't the most persecuted situation on earth. It's unique in that it's one of the few that's completely outside the control of the person being persecuted, and that makes it more clearly wrong, but doesn't make it any more hurtful. There are major aspects of my life that people mock or worse in my presence, with or without knowing that I'm part of the group they're causing harm to.
That doesn't mean I get upset, though. Getting angry doesn't help anything. It just makes both sides hate the other even more. So instead of getting angry, I get proactive. I try to change what hurts me, and what hurts people I care about, and what hurts the world I live in, instead of just shouting about it or stressing about it or brooding about it. I instrument that change not by running for office or standing outside with a sign, but by trying to change people's minds. And in the rare situations in the past when I have gotten upset, I still absolutely never want them to stop talking about it. I don't even understand that reaction, to be honest. That's just like conceding, except without the dignity. If someone wants to talk about those issues, then yes, I will debate them every single time, for hours or days or years on end. I can imagine very few better ways to spend my time than promoting the search of truth, even just to one person.
But in general, I also try not to take it too seriously when someone is like LOL THOSE STUPID CHRISTIANS, HERE'S A FUNNY GIF ABOUT THEM ARGUING WITH MAYANS ABOUT THE END OF THE WORLD or whatever. I mean, to be honest, sometimes that kind of shit makes me sick to my stomach. But as much as I hate it, I recognize that there are two sides to every argument, and there's an element of truth in what they are saying. And I should probably try to learn from it and become better than the stereotypes, which only exist because that seriously is how some of us act, and I'm ashamed of it. And in any case, I know they're not really being totally serious. I make plenty of jokes at my own expense, so it's not fair to stop them from doing it. Plus, if people don't take something seriously, that limits their persecution of it to verbal barbs instead of sharper ones.
Human nature gets in the way of rationality. It's a struggle to overcome it. But it's worth it every time. I will excuse people for becoming irrational sometimes, because none of us are perfect. But I'm not sure I can excuse them for thinking it's okay to do so.
Don't tell me I obviously can't understand.
It's not like I've never been persecuted for anything. Being female isn't the most persecuted situation on earth. It's unique in that it's one of the few that's completely outside the control of the person being persecuted, and that makes it more clearly wrong, but doesn't make it any more hurtful. There are major aspects of my life that people mock or worse in my presence, with or without knowing that I'm part of the group they're causing harm to.
That doesn't mean I get upset, though. Getting angry doesn't help anything. It just makes both sides hate the other even more. So instead of getting angry, I get proactive. I try to change what hurts me, and what hurts people I care about, and what hurts the world I live in, instead of just shouting about it or stressing about it or brooding about it. I instrument that change not by running for office or standing outside with a sign, but by trying to change people's minds. And in the rare situations in the past when I have gotten upset, I still absolutely never want them to stop talking about it. I don't even understand that reaction, to be honest. That's just like conceding, except without the dignity. If someone wants to talk about those issues, then yes, I will debate them every single time, for hours or days or years on end. I can imagine very few better ways to spend my time than promoting the search of truth, even just to one person.
But in general, I also try not to take it too seriously when someone is like LOL THOSE STUPID CHRISTIANS, HERE'S A FUNNY GIF ABOUT THEM ARGUING WITH MAYANS ABOUT THE END OF THE WORLD or whatever. I mean, to be honest, sometimes that kind of shit makes me sick to my stomach. But as much as I hate it, I recognize that there are two sides to every argument, and there's an element of truth in what they are saying. And I should probably try to learn from it and become better than the stereotypes, which only exist because that seriously is how some of us act, and I'm ashamed of it. And in any case, I know they're not really being totally serious. I make plenty of jokes at my own expense, so it's not fair to stop them from doing it. Plus, if people don't take something seriously, that limits their persecution of it to verbal barbs instead of sharper ones.
Human nature gets in the way of rationality. It's a struggle to overcome it. But it's worth it every time. I will excuse people for becoming irrational sometimes, because none of us are perfect. But I'm not sure I can excuse them for thinking it's okay to do so.
author=Iddalai
It's called visual training. People are easily manipulated into thinking that what they see portrayed in videogames is normal behavior...
Yes, I know some people can't think for themselves, but that doesn't mean we have to trip over the same stone on purpose. I intended to point out a certain irony in that whole argument. If the problem is some people's inability to set apart reality from fiction, why would anyone think it's ok to discredit an author over its work? That doesn't make much sense.
author=Iddalai
...if we were discussing misandry then someone would point out misogyny.
And again I would claim that is healthy to keep both subjects in mind. ¯\(ツ)/¯
author=Solitayre
This thread is becoming tiring. Here's a hint. If you are a man, and you are lecturing women on why they act a certain way or how they should react to gender inequality, you are probably part of the problem.
Heh; Am I the only one who sees some grade of irony in claims like this? Men and women supposedly aren't that different, they think and act very much alike. Yet as a person I still can't have a discussion with another person about a certain subject because being born with a different set of genitals makes me somehow unable to... How does that work?
author=Solitayre
This is typically referred to as "privilege," which is the assumption that your understanding and experience in the world is universal. If anyone has a different life experience than you, they must just be doin' it wrong.
lol "privilege" ...I dunno about 'universal' but I'd still argue that discussing these issues calmly and openly is the 'right' thing to do. For one there's no-one on this side getting all flustered and avoiding conversation or plain rage-quitting because of a few dissenting opinions. That's a clear advantage right there, if you ask me... We may even live longer. ;)
author=emmych
Stuff
Ok, so what is the alternative? What can we do to help things out? Do we just shut up? Because, we're not the bad guys, you know? We're not the ones out there making your everyday life an ordeal. We're just regular guys in a forum, willing to discuss a topic and who just happen to hold a partially different perspective than yours (Not even a direct opposite one, just different; We all regret discrimination towards women.) but we have to stand the implication that we're a "part of the problem" or a "flamethrower at the end of the tunnel" just for doing so. There's no winning besides completely adhering to your point of view. How's that for fairness?
That's what gets me the most, this is not even about genders to me, is the fact that I'm often made to share guilt for something I have nothing to do whit. How about we hold every individual responsible for their own deeds? Male or female, no matter the circumstances. There's no "social pressure" there's no "visual training" there's nothing... Wouldn't that be great?
That's the beginning of the solution. Stop assigning blame so we can work together. Start seeing things for what they are so we can identify the real problem. And stop feeling sorry for ourselves so we can fight the good fight.
