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FEMALES AND GAMING - #1REASONWHY
Posts
Mr_Detective
60
Mr_Detective
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Closeauthor=GURLZ
actually, girls don't even really talk about guys at all. :s
So... Do they talk about nails salon, compare breast sizes, or see who smells the best ? :O
Here's an interesting article on the subject, which gives some of the reasons women today are less in computer programming and indicates that after a desertion of a few decades, they seem to be coming back to it : http://www.themarysue.com/women-programming-over-the-years/
In any case this :
was never the reason why they left.
In any case this :
author,
Do they talk about nails salon, compare breast sizes, or see who smells the best ?
was never the reason why they left.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
author=Mr_Detectiveauthor=GURLZSo... Do they talk about nails salon, compare breast sizes, or see who smells the best ? :O
actually, girls don't even really talk about guys at all. :s
I didn't want to post in his thread in the first place, but Goddammit. I literally feel ashamed to be male right now. That could be because I always feel guilty for things I didn't do, but like Solitayre before me, I'm beginning to start to want to break things.
There's a very serious debate at hand, in which several women try to explain their situation to us, but are greeted with cold, rational stupidity. Then someone starts to lightly make very sexist jokes too?
I'm all for rationality, and I believe many things can only be solved in a rational manner, but not those things that in core are emotional problems, like sexism. I've never thought of myself as sexist, and wasn't aware it was such a big issue, so when I started reading this topic I found myself agreeing with the males, but boy oh boy have I changed my mind.
Anyway, tangents. I believe this topic was about how to solve the issue of sexism in the gaming industry? I think the answer's already been said. All you can do is call yourself and your friends on it when it happens. If you can make sure there's no more sexism around you, and can get your friends to do the same, the world will slowly start moving in the right direction.
I have realized in not defending women where I would've defended men I have been sexist.
Mr_Detective
60
LOL Don't be mad at me :D
I felt that the thread was getting a bit too heated, so I was just joking around. :P
And no, I am not sexist. My apology if I offended anyone. ;)
Anyway,
I felt that the thread was getting a bit too heated, so I was just joking around. :P
And no, I am not sexist. My apology if I offended anyone. ;)
Anyway,
author=admin
Gender is irrelevant, or at the very least far less relevant than other items (like skill, passion, creativity, tenacity, etc...).
author=kentona
Can someone explain to me what is stopping females from trying programming?
Ever thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?
Well, that's it.
What Jeroen_Sol is basically saying here:
author=Jeroen_Sol
There's a very serious debate at hand, in which several women try to explain their situation to us, but are greeted with cold, rational stupidity. Then someone starts to lightly make very sexist jokes too?
In a serious debate Women are are greeted with cold, rational stupidity and sexist jokes.
This is an example of something that happened to me:
I used to ignore Tomb Raider games. Why? Because the fan base was all like "chick's hawt! Big boobs! I'd f*** her!" and I thought that wasn't really what I looked for in a puzzle/adventure game.
I ended up playing all Tomb Raiders 10 years too late because of a lot of assholes playing them for the wrong reasons, they gave me the wrong impression of the game.
author=iddalai
I used to ignore Tomb Raider games. Why? Because the fan base was all like "chick's hawt! Big boobs! I'd f*** her!" and I thought that wasn't really what I looked for in a puzzle/adventure game.
Hold up, so you're saying you were stereotyping the fanbase of a game? You can't be put off by something being too discriminatory if you yourself are making a stereotype about people who stereotype. What I'm saying is.. you can't be offended that a community is full of sexist guys unless you are certain that this is not a generalisation that you're making, and you have spoken to every single person in that community and know for certain that they are all asshole sexists.
As a girl, I wasn't put off by the "sexism" in Tomb Raider. It just so HAPPENS that because she's a girl she has boobs and is the main character, so of course the focus is on her. Of course, Tomb Raider games have certainly changed since I last played them but people would jump to the conclusion of sexism just because there was a woman with boobs in a game. Do you think that only flat-chested nerds can be the main characters of games? I'm sorry to say this, but there are well-endowed, uninteresting people out there whether it's a stereotype or not. To force that icon out of games is to directly discriminate AGAINST such people.
Like Sailerius and Locke have been trying to explain: the reason behind things is not always sexism, but it's an easy assumption to make because a previously oppressed people are involved and it's difficult to tiptoe around the subject without stomping on someone's foot. Sure, it's bad to abuse the use of breasts as a marketing campaign for your game, but I wouldn't call it sexist if you slapped a giant penis on the front of your game either. They're just people and their gender is irrelevant in this case. Look for a deeper meaning for why such an icon is wrong or abusive instead of immediately assuming that, because a woman is involved, it is sexist. That in itself is sexism.
author=iddalaiThe problem with your answer is that you (and a whole bunch of other people) are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the occupation of programming, I'm talking about the very act of programming itself and I can see nothing that would prohibit women from persuing the latter.author=kentonaEver thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?
Can someone explain to me what is stopping females from trying programming?
Well, that's it.
So again, are you just misunderstanding me (or am I misunderstanding your original query?) or is there something that seriously prohibits women from opening Notepad and writing some code? I really would like to be enlightened because this misunderstanding is starting to become repetitive and getting in the way of the discussion at hand.
author=Solitayre
I said that they think generally the same, not that they are treated the same, which is what this argument is about.
Sure, man, but the quote I replied to was: "If you're a man and you're lecturing women..." and I just assumed that "lecturing" was a facetious way to refer to dissenting opinions in this very debate, meaning that just voicing these opinions was already "part of the problem", which didn't sit too well with me. My point is that if both Men an Women think very much alike then we can totally come to a consensus in a debate like this. Different opinions should not be dismissed in such a negative light.
author=Solitayre
It is so ingrained in our consciousness now that it has become the truth and we cannot separate the reality of it from the fiction.
This is the kind of stuff that I hate to hear... I mean, yeah, ok, these things are "beaten into us" but it's not so difficult to see past the illusion. The notion that we are incapable of making such distinction just make of all of us victims and debates like this pointless.
I like to think that most of us are indeed capable of laughing at some sitcom's silly gender stereotypes and then go live well-balanced lives once we get up from the couch. ...Perhaps only children can't tell the difference, but adults who still refuse to do it is not because society has "trained" them that way but because they have chosen to be like that, and we should hold them responsible for that choice.
author=Joren_Sol
Stuff
Three things:
1) Never feel ashamed for what another person does; It's not your responsibility... Don't fall for the blame game.
2) If a problem doesn't have a rational solution then it doesn't have a solution. Or if it does, you won't understand it.
3) Yeah, stick up for whoever you think is right. Just don't go around trying to be a white knight in shinning armor...
author=Iddalai
I ended up playing all Tomb Raiders 10 years too late because of a lot of assholes playing them for the wrong reasons, they gave me the wrong impression of the game.
Haha! Your own fault, really. =P ...The Tomb Raider games are great. Too bad the series it's taking another direction. =/
Are we even speaking the same language?
Yes I was stereotyping the fanbase of a game, it was 10 years ago, I was a different person. Are you the same person you were 10 years ago? Did you never changed or evolved in some sense? I never said I was perfect, and pointing fingers at me (and correctly so I might add) won't change the the nature of what I'm saying.
And I never even mentioned the sexism in Tomb Raider (even though it's a bit of a sexist game), I was put off by the sexism of the fan base, not the game itself. The guys were assholes so I didn't even try the game at the time. You were misreading me, I have nothing against female protagonists as long as they aren't misrepresented.
Thanks for reminding me that I was also a bigoted asshole ;)
The original quote was about women not getting into programming even as a hobby.
I see no problem with my answer: "Ever thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?"
How does this need to be about an occupation? It's realted with the very act of programming. It was just like when I was in a sense prevented from trying Tomb Raider at the time, since the specific Tomb Raider fan base I had contact with (not to generalise) were assholes.
This is just an example, with women it's even worse, sometimes they are even driven away with insults if they even show an interest in programming, if you can't understand that then it's your problem.
Can they still google programming and try it out? Sure, but with so much negative pressure they probably won't, they won't feel any appeal to it, plus there's a lot of other activities that will seem more appealing and where they won't be insulted or expelled if they try to integrate.
You probalby have people you amiably discuss programming with, and it's probably really fun to do it, but if those people ignored you or worse, insulted you, then you may not be so fond of programming. I at least, wouldn't.
They can be directly and indirectly pushed away from programming.
It is a great series! I played all of them recently. Not to deviate too much from the topic, but I'm not happy with the reboot. Or the concept of reboots in games generaly since it's like pretending the originals never existed.
But do you understand where I'm getting at now? I can't speak for women, this is a small and insignificant example of something that happend to me.
author=Caz
Hold up, so you're saying you were stereotyping the fanbase of a game? (...) As a girl, I wasn't put off by the "sexism" in Tomb Raider.
Yes I was stereotyping the fanbase of a game, it was 10 years ago, I was a different person. Are you the same person you were 10 years ago? Did you never changed or evolved in some sense? I never said I was perfect, and pointing fingers at me (and correctly so I might add) won't change the the nature of what I'm saying.
And I never even mentioned the sexism in Tomb Raider (even though it's a bit of a sexist game), I was put off by the sexism of the fan base, not the game itself. The guys were assholes so I didn't even try the game at the time. You were misreading me, I have nothing against female protagonists as long as they aren't misrepresented.
Thanks for reminding me that I was also a bigoted asshole ;)
author=KingArthur
The problem with your answer is that you (and a whole bunch of other people) are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the occupation of programming, I'm talking about the very act of programming itself and I can see nothing that would prohibit women from persuing the latter.
The original quote was about women not getting into programming even as a hobby.
I see no problem with my answer: "Ever thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?"
How does this need to be about an occupation? It's realted with the very act of programming. It was just like when I was in a sense prevented from trying Tomb Raider at the time, since the specific Tomb Raider fan base I had contact with (not to generalise) were assholes.
This is just an example, with women it's even worse, sometimes they are even driven away with insults if they even show an interest in programming, if you can't understand that then it's your problem.
Can they still google programming and try it out? Sure, but with so much negative pressure they probably won't, they won't feel any appeal to it, plus there's a lot of other activities that will seem more appealing and where they won't be insulted or expelled if they try to integrate.
You probalby have people you amiably discuss programming with, and it's probably really fun to do it, but if those people ignored you or worse, insulted you, then you may not be so fond of programming. I at least, wouldn't.
They can be directly and indirectly pushed away from programming.
author=KingArthur
Haha! Your own fault, really. =P ...The Tomb Raider games are great. Too bad the series it's taking another direction. =/
It is a great series! I played all of them recently. Not to deviate too much from the topic, but I'm not happy with the reboot. Or the concept of reboots in games generaly since it's like pretending the originals never existed.
But do you understand where I'm getting at now? I can't speak for women, this is a small and insignificant example of something that happend to me.
I see no problem with my answer: "Ever thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?"
I do. This is a bad answer because you could apply it to every field out there.
iddalai
The original quote was about women not getting into programming even as a hobby.
I see no problem with my answer: "Ever thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?"
How does this need to be about an occupation? It's realted with the very act of programming. It was just like when I was in a sense prevented from trying Tomb Raider at the time, since the specific Tomb Raider fan base I had contact with (not to generalise) were assholes.
This is just an example, with women it's even worse, sometimes they are even driven away with insults if they even show an interest in programming, if you can't understand that then it's your problem.
Can they still google programming and try it out? Sure, but with so much negative pressure they probably won't, they won't feel any appeal to it, plus there's a lot of other activities that will seem more appealing and where they won't be insulted or expelled if they try to integrate.
You probalby have people you amiably discuss programming with, and it's probably really fun to do it, but if those people ignored you or worse, insulted you, then you may not be so fond of programming. I at least, wouldn't.
They can be directly and indirectly pushed away from programming.
Here's what you originally said again for reference:
Many times women aren't even given a chance to try out programming, so they won't even know it they like it.
The above statement suggests, in a nutshell, that women cannot program, the statement suggests that women are prohibited from opening Notepad and writing code with it. To that suggestion, I call bullshit. Women can open up Notepad at any given time and write code in it, even something as simple as <html></html> would constitute as writing code, and I see absolutely nothing that prevents women from doing this.
Really, you even admitted yourself that women can try programming:
Can they still google programming and try it out? Sure,
Your argument isn't that women can't get a chance to try programming, you're arguing that women might receive a negative image of programming after the fact, and on that regard others like Sailerius have already gone into depth with that angle and I feel reiterating what they've already said won't prove to be that constructive.
Basically, what you meant / wanted to say and how you worded your original statement didn't match up. I took what you said at face value, that "women aren't even given a chance to try out programming", and I answered that that assumption was flawed because the act of programming itself is in fact very accessible. If the result of this exchange was that I misunderstood you it really couldn't be helped given the way the original statement was worded. No hard feelings though, right? (￣▽￣)ノ
Crystalgate
694
author=slashphoenix
More or less, it's a discussion about why there aren't enough women in the gaming industry, what's wrong with that, and how it can be changed.
Let's break it down into individual questions.
Why aren't there enough women in gaming industries?
This can refer to there being to few women in game development industries, to few central female characters, to few female gamers or a combination thereof. Regardless, the main cause as I see it, is sexism and indifference to sexism.
It's easy enough to see why sexism can easily discourage women. I will however note that those who causes the biggest problems aren't the openly sexist people, but those who don't consider themselves sexists while still holding a lot of sexist views. You can simple enough not play Dead and Alive Beach Volleyball, but it's harder to know whether or not the female lead who's supposed to be a strong character really is that or if her main purpose will be to serve as a foil for the male lead. Similar reasoning goes for sexist employers and workmates.
If sexism causes problems, then indifference prevents them from being fixed. If we don't react to sexism in a way that affects sales, we're not really giving the developers a reason to change their ways. I will however note that sometimes there is a strong reaction against sexism, such as Metroid other M. Lesser problems though, that appears in a lot of games, tend to get much weaker reactions. We are so used to some problems they are regarded as normal.
What's wrong with that?
One obvious problem is the lack of possibilities. If a woman wants to work with game development, but has a hard (or impossible) time finding a company without co-workers who harasses her, or she cannot get hired at all thanks to her gender, that's a problem. If women has problems finding games with female characters that are fun to play as, that's a problem. Being hindered from getting full enjoyment from your hobby or worse, dream, is not fun.
A lack of women also makes it harder to treat those women who are there "normal." It's easier to use female characters as an example so I'll do that. Male protagonists by far outnumber female protagonists. Now, imagine the developers for a certain games makes a male protagonist that's purposefully dumb, but in a likable and funny way. That's safe to do. However, it's not as safe to do the same with female protagonists. It can easily lead to disappointments and comments like "she seemed like a cool and strong woman, but she turned out to be just a ditz." The fewer female protagonists there are, the more they tend to be judged as a representative of the female gender instead of on their own merits.
I suspect a similar problem can happen if say a gaming company employs 20 men and 1 woman. She's more likely in that case to, one or another way, receive special treatment than if the company has a more even distribution of men and women.
Lastly, our brain operates to a large extent on a subconscious level. If we get so used to sexism in game that we start to regard it as no big issue, it can spill over to real life.
How can it be changed?
I don't think there will be a drastic change. However, things are better today than they were for ten years ago which in turn was better than things were for twenty years ago. So, I think things are already moving in the right direction. What can be done is to speed the process up. In general, that means actually caring and doing something, even if it's just small things like writing an article in gaming website #1352. Don't be indifferent and don't keep quiet about it (although you should still make tactical decisions regarding when and how to speak up.)
It's been 4 days
that is not that many days
and for what it's worth I just kind of assumed that iddalai meant "women are discouraged from programming" instead of "women are less capable of learning programming"
It bothers me a lot less if someone admits that they've said something sexist/racist/offensive and is aware of it. Someone who does something offensive and then tries to pretend it couldn't possibly be offensive or actually believes it isn't offensive is worse imo.
that is not that many days
and for what it's worth I just kind of assumed that iddalai meant "women are discouraged from programming" instead of "women are less capable of learning programming"
It bothers me a lot less if someone admits that they've said something sexist/racist/offensive and is aware of it. Someone who does something offensive and then tries to pretend it couldn't possibly be offensive or actually believes it isn't offensive is worse imo.
author=iddalai
Are we even speaking the same language?
author=Caz
Hold up, so you're saying you were stereotyping the fanbase of a game? (...) As a girl, I wasn't put off by the "sexism" in Tomb Raider.
Yes I was stereotyping the fanbase of a game, it was 10 years ago, I was a different person. Are you the same person you were 10 years ago? Did you never changed or evolved in some sense? I never said I was perfect, and pointing fingers at me (and correctly so I might add) won't change the the nature of what I'm saying.
And I never even mentioned the sexism in Tomb Raider (even though it's a bit of a sexist game), I was put off by the sexism of the fan base, not the game itself. The guys were assholes so I didn't even try the game at the time. You were misreading me, I have nothing against female protagonists as long as they aren't misrepresented.
Thanks for reminding me that I was also a bigoted asshole ;)
Fair enough, I'm happy you've admitted to it at least. If that was in the past, that's fine by me. I never said you were continuing to be discriminatory, just that I didn't understand whether you knew you were previously. I am not pointing the finger nor blaming you for anything, I just wanted to know your exact stance on all this.
You didn't mention the sexism in Tomb Raider, but what would a fanbase have anything to do with you playing a game? I don't put off playing Call of Duty just because my experience of its fanbase isn't great. I don't particularly care if people want to label me for what I choose to play, because then I'd never get through many games, would I? And it wasn't a sexist game in the past. I don't know much about it now, but the previous games were never offensive. What do you mean by "misrepresented"? Can you give an example of a female protagonist you find to be a sexist representation of women?
And please, don't get snippy with me. I never said the words "bigot" or "asshole", so please forgive me for taking a different viewpoint to you and trying to better understand how people feel about this issue. I have been very careful about what I say here, and I wish you'd appreciate that I could be saying much, much worse. Let's keep this civil, shall we? I'm trying not to step on toes, honestly. If you'd like to push away one of the few people trying to give another opinion on sexism in games, then I'll gladly leave you alone and you can all agree with each other and we can see what that accomplishes.
Mr_Detective
60
As far as what I've seen of the posts subsequent to yours, nobody's called you a "liar" (that one post was just an expression of "wow... this shit actually happens?" rather than calling you a liar, there was no ill will), "worthless", "stupid", or that you "enjoy being attacked".
Since you linked my post, I would like to elaborate. Arca said that she has been harassed because Kentona put a certain something from her on the front page. Yet, when I checked her profile, I didn't see a single content from her, except for one review and this :
--Profile removed for fear of e-lynching--
????
I see no problem with my answer: "Ever thought about getting into something cool and then looked at the people doing it, realised they were assholes and ended up not getting into it?"
You know... When I was in school, I was bullied a lot. But I didn't quit school because of those bullies. If girls or women really want to program, do it by all means and don't hang out with the wrong crowd.
If a woman wants to work with game development, but has a hard (or impossible) time finding a company without co-workers who harasses her, or she cannot get hired at all thanks to her gender, that's a problem.
Well, that 's discrimination and illegal. ;)
I used to ignore Tomb Raider games. Why? Because the fan base was all like "chick's hawt! Big boobs! I'd f*** her!" and I thought that wasn't really what I looked for in a puzzle/adventure game.
That was like saying people only like anime just because it has cute girls... :P
To be honest, I agree with Solitayre. Only boys can be obsessed about women in the gaming industry. It reminds me of the time when you were a kid, and you wouldn't play with children "of the opposite sex". My personal opinion is that no-one should be judged by the organ he/she has down his pants, but rather by his skills and intelligence in this industry. Women can only help the industry by proving a view of the other side of the coin - since of the emotions 'n shit - and that may pop out more interesting titles. Otherwise, gamer chicks are hot. Too bad I never met any, for crying out loud. In ma city, damn duckface 13-year-old's-dressing-as-20-year-old's are pretty much the main catch. But that's another topic -.-
