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Closeauthor=SnowOwl
I don't think there's honestly a single person that thinks this thread has brought mostly positive things here.
Positive things this thread has brought:
- I know exactly whose lawns I want to piss on
- I met some people whose lawns I do not want to piss on
- Several people have mentioned finding aspects of this discussion informative
- I learned new things
- I got better at articulating certain points I've had trouble putting into words in the past
- More people are thinking about various Media Issues for even a fraction of a second longer
- In comparison to previous Social Discussions, I saw more people than usual getting involved even if they're doing so in a negative manner; this is an improvement to any sort of social discussion being outright dismissed or ignored
Call me optimistic, but those positives outweigh the negatives. this has gone way better than some previous threads i've posted in.
my 2 cents on, idk, "serious' topics about some kinda social discussion...
I'm super against making any sort of separate forum for these kinds of topics. It just introduces too many questions about "how are we going to regulate access to this space?" and "what goes in here?". You still have to answer those questions if it's a particular thread, yeah, but booting someone out of a thread for showing up just to start shit (and not actually address anything that's being discussed) is a lot more low-key than kicking them out of a particular forum
I also wanna note that any long-running thread about a "controversial" topic is just not going to end well 90% of the time. There is no "end" point in discussions like this and sooner or later you're gonna get someone coming in to be very vocal about how a) none of this matters and b) should not be discussed and then all kinds of derails start showing up.
I'll actually say I did learn a fair bit about not just world views, and have had mine altered slightly, but I also found a fair bit about the people in this thread, Penta and I haven't talked since before the Calamity, and much as I berate this discussion's existence, it was neato to catch up, even if she doesn't recognize me courtesy of my current username.
Also I found out some things about Mawk which have made it not only easier, but more fun to ignore him like I have been for the majority already.
You only know someone until you don't, I suppose!
Granted, the waves of conflicting opinions and cuts surrounding this thread are the most visible, but peeling away the rancorous filth, which I have actively contributed towards myself, there is wisdom to be gleamed here in.
I just think in the end it might be better suited to welp welp.
SJW's don't worry me, and the American institution points it out best, policing this sort of idiocy isn't worth the money, and any attempt to silence freedoms of expression in any medium has been a long since attempted but ultimately futile effort.
The word Faggot is still used in movies, the word retard has always been and still is used in books, and said trends will continue in games, that said, I'm all for the criticisms of such, Mirak's complaint is a childish one, like you can't call someone a faggot and not expect rebuttal, just be cool about it.
Someone chagrinned me for using gay in an entirely innocuous sense and I responded as respectably as I could, saying that more or less 'gay' isn't a slur and if you want to worry about it then that's your problem.
If I said faggot in a game, (which I don't, I don't believe slurs are needed when creative alternatives can be both funnier and less harmful) yeah, I'd be down for that lecture, or at least the hate, because if there's any one motto I go by it's "You reap what you sow". I do not support Mirak's desires, because he wants to silence SJW's, I ultimately want freedom for anyone to be both criticized and critical.
All I'm interested in is freedom of speech (on both and all sides of the fence) and making games.
Make you a deal fellas, this discussion can keep going, because while it annoys me, I can always choose not to read it, however, I'm free to state my opinions on it, how's that sound?
Oh right, that's basically what's been happening anyway? See? Everybody gets it!
@Mirak: If I've misconstrued your intent, please let me know. Just sounds like you don't wanna be called names but yet expect to be able to do that, which is just as bad as being a SJW who wants to silence slurs and keep being able to insult people themselves.
Also I found out some things about Mawk which have made it not only easier, but more fun to ignore him like I have been for the majority already.
You only know someone until you don't, I suppose!
Granted, the waves of conflicting opinions and cuts surrounding this thread are the most visible, but peeling away the rancorous filth, which I have actively contributed towards myself, there is wisdom to be gleamed here in.
I just think in the end it might be better suited to welp welp.
author=GreatRedSpiritSays someone on the internet, a medium in which anybody has freedom from consequence.
Freedom from consequence is a very particular privilege and I don't think anybody involved with a indie game dev community is in the proper social strata to have such a freedom
SJW's don't worry me, and the American institution points it out best, policing this sort of idiocy isn't worth the money, and any attempt to silence freedoms of expression in any medium has been a long since attempted but ultimately futile effort.
The word Faggot is still used in movies, the word retard has always been and still is used in books, and said trends will continue in games, that said, I'm all for the criticisms of such, Mirak's complaint is a childish one, like you can't call someone a faggot and not expect rebuttal, just be cool about it.
Someone chagrinned me for using gay in an entirely innocuous sense and I responded as respectably as I could, saying that more or less 'gay' isn't a slur and if you want to worry about it then that's your problem.
If I said faggot in a game, (which I don't, I don't believe slurs are needed when creative alternatives can be both funnier and less harmful) yeah, I'd be down for that lecture, or at least the hate, because if there's any one motto I go by it's "You reap what you sow". I do not support Mirak's desires, because he wants to silence SJW's, I ultimately want freedom for anyone to be both criticized and critical.
All I'm interested in is freedom of speech (on both and all sides of the fence) and making games.
Make you a deal fellas, this discussion can keep going, because while it annoys me, I can always choose not to read it, however, I'm free to state my opinions on it, how's that sound?
Oh right, that's basically what's been happening anyway? See? Everybody gets it!
@Mirak: If I've misconstrued your intent, please let me know. Just sounds like you don't wanna be called names but yet expect to be able to do that, which is just as bad as being a SJW who wants to silence slurs and keep being able to insult people themselves.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Okay so I kind of feel like people are getting hung up on 'words' and the idea that 'some words shouldn't be allowed.' That's missing the point. Nobody here is advocating for "YOU SAID A BAD WORD TO THE SHAME-O-TRON* WITH YOU." People are asking to be respected and for their boundaries to be acknowledged. When someone says "Hey, please don't use that word around me," it is an act of basic courtesy to just say "oh my bad I won't do it again." The idea that this is somehow 'censorship' is a total misdirection.
Contrary to popular belief I am not in favor of outlawing certain words forever and ever because they're icky or something. That sounds a little too much like first grade. But I am absolutely in favor of respecting requests from people that we not use certain language in their company if they ask us not to. I don't think this is a lot to ask. And as discussions go on, we might learn that using certain words does actually hurt people and that we can make an effort not to use them in certain ways in our everyday lives, and thus help diminish a toxic environment where certain people feel unwelcome.
That's my take anyway, from a straight white guy and noted 'bad person.'
*Patent pending do not steal
Contrary to popular belief I am not in favor of outlawing certain words forever and ever because they're icky or something. That sounds a little too much like first grade. But I am absolutely in favor of respecting requests from people that we not use certain language in their company if they ask us not to. I don't think this is a lot to ask. And as discussions go on, we might learn that using certain words does actually hurt people and that we can make an effort not to use them in certain ways in our everyday lives, and thus help diminish a toxic environment where certain people feel unwelcome.
That's my take anyway, from a straight white guy and noted 'bad person.'
*Patent pending do not steal
It's not so much the words themselves as how they're used - context is everything - and in the case that a word is being used on the site in a negative way, such as someone calling someone else a racial or sexual slur, then yes, in that context the word is 'banned'. By which I mean, very likely to see you get warned over and highly discouraged to be used in a negative manner again.
An example of context - nigger. Most people hesitate to even type the full word out because of the negative connotations and hatred that the word was inspired by, however there are times where it is appropriate to use the word - in era-appropriate dialogue, when you have people who are using it deliberately as a slur and are shown to be assholes because of it, etc. Hell, I cringe every time my sister uses the word to indicate certain friends of hers, despite said friends (being black) encouraging her and other friends of theirs to use it around them - trying to take it back by making it a friendly insult I guess (Australian's are weird like that - using insults as endearments towards each other. The worse the insult the closer a friend you are.)
Context and the reason behind the use of the word are what is important - and that is why certain words are looked at more closely than others on the site - because for the most part they only have negative connotations and history applied to them and we ask that everyone on the site does not use them in the negative capacity, even going so far as to threaten bans if you do not comply and continue to be an asshole about being asked to respect others' rights not to be exposed to such derogatory associations.
An example of context - nigger. Most people hesitate to even type the full word out because of the negative connotations and hatred that the word was inspired by, however there are times where it is appropriate to use the word - in era-appropriate dialogue, when you have people who are using it deliberately as a slur and are shown to be assholes because of it, etc. Hell, I cringe every time my sister uses the word to indicate certain friends of hers, despite said friends (being black) encouraging her and other friends of theirs to use it around them - trying to take it back by making it a friendly insult I guess (Australian's are weird like that - using insults as endearments towards each other. The worse the insult the closer a friend you are.)
Context and the reason behind the use of the word are what is important - and that is why certain words are looked at more closely than others on the site - because for the most part they only have negative connotations and history applied to them and we ask that everyone on the site does not use them in the negative capacity, even going so far as to threaten bans if you do not comply and continue to be an asshole about being asked to respect others' rights not to be exposed to such derogatory associations.
ubon
66
author=BowelMovement
Also I found out some things about Mawk which have made it not only easier, but more fun to ignore him like I have been for the majority already.
if you're talking about my gender stuff here (and, hey, it's 'they/them' if you don't mind), then wow! that's very cool of you. I wish you'd actually deliver on this whole 'ignoring' thing you've been promising ever since the last time we spoke (like two weeks ago) instead of constantly trying to get me to fight you
that aside, nobody who makes posts almost exclusively on the subject of 'SJWs' (who, conveniently, always have the terrible plans and opinions most convenient to the speaker's reactionary viewpoint) has literally anything to lend to this thread. this was a promising thread for a nuanced discussion of representation and audience reception, but these constant attempts to drag it into incoherent scaremongering about ~censorship~ have effectively ruined it -- an outcome that was no doubt intended.
right now, rmn is not the place where a discussion like this can actually happen in peace. I'd like everyone to think about what they can do to help this situation, because having a few loud pillars on the progressive side to offset the reactionary shouting isn't enough for a stable, enjoyable topic.
author=Liberty
Hell, I cringe every time my sister uses the word to indicate certain friends of hers, despite said friends (being black) encouraging her and other friends of theirs to use it around them - trying to take it back by making it a friendly insult I guess (Australian's are weird like that - using insults as endearments towards each other. The worse the insult the closer a friend you are.)
That's actually true about America, particularly among kids. It's fucking sad.
author=Feldschlacht IV
I hope my participation in this topic hasn't contributed to that!
From what I can gather, you and mawk are the few people who provided any sound advice in this thread.
author=LibertyCan confirm. I think it's like a test, like we need to gauge how much we can get away with, like friend hierarchy from my limited experience is something like...
Australian's are weird like that - using insults as endearments towards each other. The worse the insult the closer a friend you are.
Tosser
Wanker
Fuckwit
Cunt
Then it just becomes made up words, like Truplenugger or Scalpchild.
Depends largely on regime, circle and state.
author=Liberty
An example of context - nigger. Most people hesitate to even type the full word out because of the negative connotations and hatred that the word was inspired by, however there are times where it is appropriate to use the word - in era-appropriate dialogue, when you have people who are using it deliberately as a slur and are shown to be assholes because of it, etc. Hell, I cringe every time my sister uses the word to indicate certain friends of hers, despite said friends (being black) encouraging her and other friends of theirs to use it around them - trying to take it back by making it a friendly insult I guess (Australian's are weird like that - using insults as endearments towards each other. The worse the insult the closer a friend you are.)
That one is...tricky.
Do you mean the word 'Nigger' or the word 'Nigga'? To many white people there's not a difference, but contextually, there's a massive difference between someone saying 'Joe's a nigger' and 'Joe's my nigga'. Because the latter isn't an Australian thing, it's an African American thing, right where it started, here, in America. Once again, 'nigger' and 'nigga' are so contextually different they're almost two entirely separate words.
author=WetMattos
content warning: transmisogyny, slurs, symbolic violence
yesterday night, i got the opportunity to read a piece of news that had me very much mortified.
as some of you might now, riot games has recently made a rework of one of their characters, fiora. it had some much needed changes to her play patterns, and some less expected ones to her appearance, so to better match her new kit. and one of these aestethic changes were to her face, specifically to her overall bone structure and cheekbones, which has apparently summoned, from the depths of the forums, a vitriol storm on how she looks ugly and old, and a crone, and masculine, and a tranny - this last one, to be found, must be looked in the comments, rather than the news itself.
and, as much as i am aware of how vocal awful people are, and that this is a minority speaking, as a trans woman myself (and one that doesn't look like a cis woman in no way), this is frightening. aesthetically, fiora was, in the best possible evaluation, a sexy MOBA girl, her face a permanent sexy pout, her body a poor excuse at a rubber doll (and the fashion was atrocious at best). but as soon as she start looking less of one of zeronis bland designs, her face unique, her body structure a bit less similar to everything else in the game (her clothes finally coherent with what she does, despite the vacuum sealed parts), she is put under a blatantly transmisogynistic condemnation, one that furthers alienate both all women, but specifically trans women from the game, and all because she's not 'fuckable' anymore.
and here i was enjoying her new look because she reminded me of cassandra pentaghast, and i love her character.
so, for those who reached here, i have a question. how exactly do you deal with creating characters that defy expectations of how individuals should look and be in our media? do you go out of the way to create well fleshed, genuine characters who belong in one or more marginalised groups? here i'm thinking broadly, but for example, fat people, black people, american indigenous people, arab people, south and southeast asian people, aboriginal people, intersex people, trans people (specifically trans women), women in general, disabled people... is there a concern in creating characters that do not belong in our hegemonic cultural millieu? characters that would, and normally do, infuriate dudebros by being what they would describe as "politically correct", or, you know, people that exist and don't get the spotlight often? and, if you do, how do you manage the expectation of symbolic violence which, most probably, will follow their announcement and development? people who are marginalized themselves, i'm particularly interested in your answers - i'm yet to find a way to navigate this space without flaring my anxiety disorders.
I hate transmisogyny myself. I work at a library and spend tremendous effort trying to look good. Then some guy from my past comes and says "Hey Thomas (not my name anymore, but I never told him otherwise), you should cut your hair, boy." I'm not your "boy" my name's Sam or Samantha, and you can stuff your comment. Instead, I said nothing, mainly due to being flabbergasted and "put in my place" by this asshole. I actually do look passable, I guess, not very masculine jaw, skinny and not very muscular. So, in the latter case I can understand letting trans characters look classically feminine, even though it's a generic and "safe" play.
Question (since I know zero about the character in question): Is this actually a transgender character? Or are they labeling her trans to shame her?
The gaming culture is notoriously heteronormative, xenophobic, and afraid of what it doesn't understand. It can be taught, it's just coupled with the fact that players want their preferences at the exclusion of all else, and feel like if they complain loudly enough, they get their way.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=LibertyThat one is...tricky.
An example of context - nigger. Most people hesitate to even type the full word out because of the negative connotations and hatred that the word was inspired by, however there are times where it is appropriate to use the word - in era-appropriate dialogue, when you have people who are using it deliberately as a slur and are shown to be assholes because of it, etc. Hell, I cringe every time my sister uses the word to indicate certain friends of hers, despite said friends (being black) encouraging her and other friends of theirs to use it around them - trying to take it back by making it a friendly insult I guess (Australian's are weird like that - using insults as endearments towards each other. The worse the insult the closer a friend you are.)
Do you mean the word 'Nigger' or the word 'Nigga'? To many white people there's not a difference, but contextually, there's a massive difference between someone saying 'Joe's a nigger' and 'Joe's my nigga'. Because the latter isn't an Australian thing, it's an African American thing, right where it started, here, in America. Once again, 'nigger' and 'nigga' are so contextually different they're almost two entirely separate words.
Tell me about it.
Also kind of relevant. Consider the terminology and how it's used to justify exclusion. Sound familiar?
Um, bulma, no offense, but if you don't tell him how is he supposed to know? People aren't mind readers and he obviously didn't hear about your change so he probably went with the information about you that he knew from before. I mean, he might still have been an ass about it after you'd told him, but you didn't really give him a chance to say "My bad, sorry about that. So, what do you go by now? How should I refer to you?"
There are some feminine-looking men out there who still identify as men, after all, so unless he was told before-hand, he can't be expected to just know.
Also, they were labelling her trans to shame her. Seems she's female, but they just added a stronger jawline and people used trans as an insult which is pathetic.
You know what's really funny, though? Women have been part of gaming since it's inception, just never acknowledged as such. It's never been a 'boys only' thing, even from the outset.
There are some feminine-looking men out there who still identify as men, after all, so unless he was told before-hand, he can't be expected to just know.
Also, they were labelling her trans to shame her. Seems she's female, but they just added a stronger jawline and people used trans as an insult which is pathetic.
You know what's really funny, though? Women have been part of gaming since it's inception, just never acknowledged as such. It's never been a 'boys only' thing, even from the outset.
author=Cor
Also kind of relevant. Consider the terminology and how it's used to justify exclusion. Sound familiar?
I'm unsure what you mean. Elaborate?
author=BowelMovementWell i guess i should apologize for not being cleared about what i mean. That's not how i wanted what i wrote to be interpreted as. I'm tempted to choose the easy way out of my mistake by blaming my idiot-tier understanding of english that makes it really hard for me to extrapolate my points of view into this god damned language but yeah.
@Mirak: If I've misconstrued your intent, please let me know. Just sounds like you don't wanna be called names but yet expect to be able to do that, which is just as bad as being a SJW who wants to silence slurs and keep being able to insult people themselves.
author=Feldschlacht IVLol, pretty sure neither of those are Australian in origin.
That one is...tricky.
Do you mean the word 'Nigger' or the word 'Nigga'? To many white people there's not a difference, but contextually, there's a massive difference between someone saying 'Joe's a nigger' and 'Joe's my nigga'. Because the latter isn't an Australian thing, it's an African American thing, right where it started, here, in America. Once again, 'nigger' and 'nigga' are so contextually different they're almost two entirely separate words.
From what I've read 'nigga' is a friendly greeting while 'nigger' is something different.
My strategy is to just use neither, fella is what I use.
@Mirak: Lol, all good.
Also @Lib you're on the dot with girls gaming (and game-making!) since a very early time. One of the leads of Oddworld Inhabitants is female, she and Lorne Lanning founded the company.
My cousin has played games more religiously than I have and we're the same age (give or take some months.)
I think a lot of the girls arent gamers idiocy started with the internet, not gaming in any sense. It's commonly said as a joke or not that girls just don't exist on the internet, which is vastly untrue, in fact last time I checked statistics more girls were on the internet than blokes, but that's just trivia.
Gaming will evolve, as has every medium before it to cater to the gamers, who will also evolve. It's happening right now.
author=BM
Lol, pretty sure neither of those are Australian in origin.
From what I've read 'nigga' is a friendly greeting while 'nigger' is something different.
I am more than well aware of both of these facts.
author=Feldschlacht IV
Because the latter isn't an Australian thing, it's an African American thing.
author=Feldschlacht IVContrarion much, or am I missing something?
I am more than well aware of both of these facts.
Neither are Australian things, both are African-American things. Just to clarify what I was ribbing at here.
i don't even know what you're trying to say anymore dude
Anyway,
Yes I agree with all of this.
However I don't think it's unreasonable to definitely agree with the idea and goal of said, 'SJW', but to definitely disagree with parts of the minutiae, representatives, and concerning elements.
It's easy to dismiss a question of 'yeah I agree with feminism but what about those crazy SJWs' as sidestepping bullshit, but let's not forget that 1. An extreme representative of a view isn't always an ignorable minority factor (see, Malcolm X of the Civil Rights movement, extraordinarily influential and important, while his motives aren't in doubt, but his ideas could be pretty extreme and probably not practically great) 2. To someone unfamiliar with your struggle, all representatives of your struggle appear as if they have equal value within your struggle.
Acknowledging all viewpoints, ideas, and people (who don't all make sense, even if the motive does) is important, because those of us who fight for whatever cause, have to understand that we can't hide behind our feelings that what we're fighting for what's objectively right to carry us to victory. Social change is still very much a hearts and minds game, because no matter how much effectiveness the proper application of social force you place, you can't force the entire movement.
Anyway,
author=mawk
that aside, nobody who makes posts almost exclusively on the subject of 'SJWs' (who, conveniently, always have the terrible plans and opinions most convenient to the speaker's reactionary viewpoint) has literally anything to lend to this thread. this was a promising thread for a nuanced discussion of representation and audience reception, but these constant attempts to drag it into incoherent scaremongering about ~censorship~ have effectively ruined it -- an outcome that was no doubt intended.
Yes I agree with all of this.
However I don't think it's unreasonable to definitely agree with the idea and goal of said, 'SJW', but to definitely disagree with parts of the minutiae, representatives, and concerning elements.
It's easy to dismiss a question of 'yeah I agree with feminism but what about those crazy SJWs' as sidestepping bullshit, but let's not forget that 1. An extreme representative of a view isn't always an ignorable minority factor (see, Malcolm X of the Civil Rights movement, extraordinarily influential and important, while his motives aren't in doubt, but his ideas could be pretty extreme and probably not practically great) 2. To someone unfamiliar with your struggle, all representatives of your struggle appear as if they have equal value within your struggle.
Acknowledging all viewpoints, ideas, and people (who don't all make sense, even if the motive does) is important, because those of us who fight for whatever cause, have to understand that we can't hide behind our feelings that what we're fighting for what's objectively right to carry us to victory. Social change is still very much a hearts and minds game, because no matter how much effectiveness the proper application of social force you place, you can't force the entire movement.
It's not so much the words themselves as how they're used - context is everything - and in the case that a word is being used on the site in a negative way, such as someone calling someone else a racial or sexual slur, then yes, in that context the word is 'banned'. By which I mean, very likely to see you get warned over and highly discouraged to be used in a negative manner again.
I am actually relatively okay with that, as long as it's a word like "nigger" or "faggot" that has a lot of cultural baggage associated with a history of oppression and abuse and someone is taking issue with it being used in an obviously negative and abusive way. Is this censorship? Yeah, probably but in this case...whatever. This is after all a public space. Reasonable restrictions on conduct are to be expected. I have no real objection to this!
It is unbelievably stupid and completely fucking laughable to ban the term 'SJW' which is a perfectly accurate way of describing self-identified (I mean all of the people who I most object to do literally and unironically describe themselves as Social Justice Warriors) radical zealots/extremists who are a part of that repellent group entirely by choice. In other words, treating African Americans or homosexuals as a protected group is acceptable. Treating Republicans or SJWs or whatever, any political faction, as a protected group is ridiculous on its face.
Do you mean the word 'Nigger' or the word 'Nigga'? To many white people there's not a difference, but contextually, there's a massive difference between someone saying 'Joe's a nigger' and 'Joe's my nigga'. Because the latter isn't an Australian thing, it's an African American thing, right where it started, here, in America. Once again, 'nigger' and 'nigga' are so contextually different they're almost two entirely separate words.
Out of curiosity, in your opinion is either one ever acceptable for white people to say? Not really a part of my vernacular, personally, but I've seen SJW types get angry at white people for singing along the word 'nigga' at rap concerts because they were into the music because that was somehow "racist", which seems like a bit much to me personally.
It's easy to dismiss a question of 'yeah I agree with feminism but what about those crazy SJWs' as sidestepping bullshit, but let's not forget that 1. An extreme representative of a view isn't always an ignorable minority factor (see, Malcolm X of the Civil Rights movement, extraordinarily influential and important, while his motives aren't in doubt, but his ideas could be pretty extreme and probably not practically great) 2. To someone unfamiliar with your struggle, all representatives of your struggle appear as if they have equal value within your struggle.
I agree with what you are saying here. To go just a little further:
First wave feminism and second wave feminism were good and necessary movements for social justice. Modern third wave+ feminism is extremely toxic, poisoned by radical elements that are overwhelmingly loud and far-reaching. Personally, I prefer egalitarianism which is a humanist project as opposed to a radical project. Basically, what I am saying is being anti-feminist is not the same as being basically opposed to women's rights.
I'd like to make a thread about this some day actually, like along the lines of "why I am an anti-feminist and how that doesn't actually make me some kind of misogynist terrorist". I just don't have the time/energy right now (and there is the obvious fear that it would be clusterfuck of misunderstanding and abuse from the word go). Basically, I am for women's rights, but extremist SJWs have poisoned and hijacked modern feminism.
