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DEALING WITH DEATH AS A PLOT POINT?
Posts
djbeardo
1834
djbeardo
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CloseI've run into a narrative cul-de-sac, and I wanted to know how other people deal with it:
In a standard RPG, there are things that recover from the death state (e.g., phoenix down, stay at inn, raise spell, etc.). How do you explain the death of NPCs? Couldn't someone just use a phoenix down on them and raise them up again? Or take them to the inn? If this is brought up in the narrative, how is this discrepancy dealt with?
I need to kill off some NPCs, but I'm struggling with why my team of heroes won't just use a bunch of phoenix downs on them and call it a day...
I'm sure this has been discussed before, so if someone has a link to that discussion, that's fine too.
In a standard RPG, there are things that recover from the death state (e.g., phoenix down, stay at inn, raise spell, etc.). How do you explain the death of NPCs? Couldn't someone just use a phoenix down on them and raise them up again? Or take them to the inn? If this is brought up in the narrative, how is this discrepancy dealt with?
I need to kill off some NPCs, but I'm struggling with why my team of heroes won't just use a bunch of phoenix downs on them and call it a day...
I'm sure this has been discussed before, so if someone has a link to that discussion, that's fine too.
The above, or have a limited amount of time for said thing to work.
Or you can be really silly about it if you'd like... for example having a type of food that only your party members can tolerate, like a Swamp Mushroom that makes you stink but on the upside it can raise you from death.
But the above solution is the most common. You just have to be particular about death states.
Or you can be really silly about it if you'd like... for example having a type of food that only your party members can tolerate, like a Swamp Mushroom that makes you stink but on the upside it can raise you from death.
But the above solution is the most common. You just have to be particular about death states.
I usually just call it K.O. instead of death. In the end, it's just names confusing the narrative, so, it's pretty easy to patch up.
It would be the same thing if there was a pivotal "character gets poisoned" moment in your game or something. Why not just throw an antidote at them? etc.
It would be the same thing if there was a pivotal "character gets poisoned" moment in your game or something. Why not just throw an antidote at them? etc.
I agree with the above posts of just watching your wording but want to give one alternative: Make it so (FF5 mid-game spoilers at link) you hulk the fuck out and fight past your last stand. I don't have any objections that a phoenix down won't work on somebody who just took the grand daddy of ass kickings and kept standing until the end.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Alternate suggestion: Kill them in a way that doesn't leave a body. Drop them off a cliff, or off an airship, or have them plummet into lava, or disintegrate them in acid leaving only a skeleton, or launch them into space, or make a vortex suck them up, or have the villain take the character's severed head as a trophy. Or have a necromancer rip their soul out and consume it - instead of not leaving a body, you're not leaving a soul.
Or just make them die alone when no one else is around. That works too.
Or just make them die alone when no one else is around. That works too.
The way i handled NPC deaths in one of my first games was that the healing and resusitating artifacts were very rare objects that only the heroes knew about and whose use were restricted to people who were "blessed" by said macguffins (that is the heroes), so even if the heroes tried to use said healing artifacts, they wouldn't work on normal people.
I haven't specifically attempted to deal with this issue, but, I typically call my "dead" status "comatose". Not sure if this helps at all with your issue.
blueperiod
775
I use "defeated" as my death state, since KO'd makes me think of an MMA match and it doesn't really fit with my game's medieval setting.
My favorite framing for hp loss/depletion in games is attaching it to non-physical ideas of damage. It allows for some fun stuff even though you keep the same mechanics.
so like, idk, "energy" instead of health, or "willpower" or "motivation". It gets around the narrative weirdness of "but why not phoenix down?" and is more tone-appropriate for your Fun Light-hearted gams. Honestly game-ifying death in general is not something I'm super into most of the time. not my jam!
so like, idk, "energy" instead of health, or "willpower" or "motivation". It gets around the narrative weirdness of "but why not phoenix down?" and is more tone-appropriate for your Fun Light-hearted gams. Honestly game-ifying death in general is not something I'm super into most of the time. not my jam!
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Have a crashing, burning airship shear through the town where said NPC lives. Cinematic death beats all.
Kaempfer
1932
Just kill them harder. Sure, it makes sense to use a phoenix down on that guy who died from a slow gut wound or from being set on fire (plus, he JUST died, like just now) but it doesn't make sense to use it on that guy that just got split in half by a mountain falling on him or died being hit by a train into another train. Phoenix downs can only set so many broken bones, right?
Kaempfer
died being hit by a train into another train.
Alright.
Someone's gonna have to make this happen. This is too good to pass up.
Sometimes death is totally permanent in a game.
Take Fire Emblem. There is no 'faint' status. There's no 'mostly dead, so still a little bit alive'. There's just pushing up daisies.
Take Fire Emblem. There is no 'faint' status. There's no 'mostly dead, so still a little bit alive'. There's just pushing up daisies.
djbeardo
1834
author=Pizza
I usually just call it K.O. instead of death. In the end, it's just names confusing the narrative, so, it's pretty easy to patch up.
It would be the same thing if there was a pivotal "character gets poisoned" moment in your game or something. Why not just throw an antidote at them? etc.
The ol' Pokemon route... solid idea.
author=GreatRedSpirit
I agree with the above posts of just watching your wording but want to give one alternative: Make it so (FF5 mid-game spoilers at link) you hulk the fuck out and fight past your last stand. I don't have any objections that a phoenix down won't work on somebody who just took the grand daddy of ass kickings and kept standing until the end.
I was leaning toward this, honestly, before I posted.
author=blueperiod
I use "defeated" as my death state, since KO'd makes me think of an MMA match and it doesn't really fit with my game's medieval setting.
I like this idea. I am also doing a medieval-set game with a relatively serious tone, so this may work...
author=Corfaisus
Have a crashing, burning airship shear through the town where said NPC lives. Cinematic death beats all.
Was it that obvious that I'm trying to fridge an entire town and needed ideas?? :D I like the cinematic death idea, but my eventing prowess may take a few more games to get there.
author=Kaempfer
Just kill them harder. Sure, it makes sense to use a phoenix down on that guy who died from a slow gut wound or from being set on fire (plus, he JUST died, like just now) but it doesn't make sense to use it on that guy that just got split in half by a mountain falling on him or died being hit by a train into another train. Phoenix downs can only set so many broken bones, right?
I like this idea... with the phoenix down having somewhat circumscribed powers. This would work in my game world...
author=PizzaKaempferAlright.
died being hit by a train into another train.
Someone's gonna have to make this happen. This is too good to pass up.
I need some train sprites. Stat. ;)
Thanks everyone for the ideas! I've been stuck mapping for the past few weeks and was feeling creatively drained.
djbeardo
1834
author=FlyingJester
Sometimes death is totally permanent in a game.
Take Fire Emblem. There is no 'faint' status. There's no 'mostly dead, so still a little bit alive'. There's just pushing up daisies.
I think this is great, and if I was doing something like FFTactics with a giant party, I'd give it a shot. But my story right now is very character driven, so I can't afford anyone dying before the story allows them to. That said, the idea of perma-death is something that really ratchets up the tension.
Rine
1378
It may not fit into your current narrative, but do recall that permanent death helps ratchet up the tension in any game, even with a very limited character grouping. I doubt many have played it, but Sweet Home for the NES (the precursor in style to Resident Evil) has five characters, with unique items, and permanent death. You can complete the game with any mix all the way down to two characters still alive (You don't have enough inventory to kill the final boss with only one character). It really ratchets up the tension tremendously, and makes you really think about healing items and such. Of course it ratcheted up the tension so much I can't really finish it...even with save anywhere you're terrified of getting a character killed or stuck.
emmych
817
My go-to is what Penta talked about: energy or willpower. I like to think of battles less as "cause as much harm to the opposing enemy as possible" and more of "tire the enemy out so they surrender and give up."
Because honestly? Nothing makes me lose sympathy for the main characters more than watching them mow down enemies left and right. I've gotten to a point in my life where I get incredibly uncomfortable playing a game where I murder folks indiscriminately! Because that is what you do in basically every game that involves violent conflict, and I find that incredibly fucked up.
The threat of "you are subdued by the enemy and the arrested/potentially executed" or "you are tired out to the point of collapse by this giant monster and it probably eats you afterwards" -- aka you probably die after the game over screen flashes up -- is enough. Leave death to cutscenes where you can handle it with care! The less death in a game, the more poignant scenes with death become.
Because honestly? Nothing makes me lose sympathy for the main characters more than watching them mow down enemies left and right. I've gotten to a point in my life where I get incredibly uncomfortable playing a game where I murder folks indiscriminately! Because that is what you do in basically every game that involves violent conflict, and I find that incredibly fucked up.
The threat of "you are subdued by the enemy and the arrested/potentially executed" or "you are tired out to the point of collapse by this giant monster and it probably eats you afterwards" -- aka you probably die after the game over screen flashes up -- is enough. Leave death to cutscenes where you can handle it with care! The less death in a game, the more poignant scenes with death become.
author=LockeZOr just dismember them so horribly that a phoenix down ain't gonna do jack.
Alternate suggestion: Kill them in a way that doesn't leave a body. Drop them off a cliff, or off an airship, or have them plummet into lava, or disintegrate them in acid leaving only a skeleton, or launch them into space, or make a vortex suck them up, or have the villain take the character's severed head as a trophy. Or have a necromancer rip their soul out and consume it - instead of not leaving a body, you're not leaving a soul.
Or just make them die alone when no one else is around. That works too.
Maybe do a sort of scripted Fire Emblem thing? Make some portion subtly unwinnable without a certain character dying?
If you do it right that could be good. But it would probably work best if any other death of a single character was a game over.
Re-acid, that reminds me...I had an idea for a story where many of the characters slowly get dismembered and disfigured as the plot goes on (which changes their abilities). Like, the main character is caught in a fire fairly early on and all his skin burns off. So he goes around as a skeleton the rest of the game.
I thought it would be a really good idea if at no point in the game anyone commented on it, either. Like it was totally normal.
If you do it right that could be good. But it would probably work best if any other death of a single character was a game over.
Re-acid, that reminds me...I had an idea for a story where many of the characters slowly get dismembered and disfigured as the plot goes on (which changes their abilities). Like, the main character is caught in a fire fairly early on and all his skin burns off. So he goes around as a skeleton the rest of the game.
I thought it would be a really good idea if at no point in the game anyone commented on it, either. Like it was totally normal.
