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DUNGEON CRAWLERS
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Active_Radio
41
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CloseI've realized recently that I should probably do a few smaller projects (instead of undertaking one large one) to get some games up and so maybe a few people will recognize me.
In short, I've decided to work on a dungeon crawler RPG. Pretty standard as far as RPG elements go. Dispatching enemies, beating bosses, collecting items, leveling up, etc, etc. While the multiple dungeons will be the main focus and where the players will spend the most time, there will also be a world map and towns (though those are more from getting from location to location and purchasing equipment, respectively).
The game will be made with RM2k3. It will be either 16 or 8 bit, maybe even 4 bit. I'm shooting for 16 bit as 8 bit crawlers seem to be done quite often, but it all depends on what I end up feeling what the game's atmosphere should be like.
What I'd like to know is what you guys enjoy from a dungeon crawler. Obviously the dungeon design itself will be a crucial aspect, but what added features would you like to see? Alternate leveling systems? Out of combat skills? Added secrets? I'm open to all suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
In short, I've decided to work on a dungeon crawler RPG. Pretty standard as far as RPG elements go. Dispatching enemies, beating bosses, collecting items, leveling up, etc, etc. While the multiple dungeons will be the main focus and where the players will spend the most time, there will also be a world map and towns (though those are more from getting from location to location and purchasing equipment, respectively).
The game will be made with RM2k3. It will be either 16 or 8 bit, maybe even 4 bit. I'm shooting for 16 bit as 8 bit crawlers seem to be done quite often, but it all depends on what I end up feeling what the game's atmosphere should be like.
What I'd like to know is what you guys enjoy from a dungeon crawler. Obviously the dungeon design itself will be a crucial aspect, but what added features would you like to see? Alternate leveling systems? Out of combat skills? Added secrets? I'm open to all suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
Irili
3198
Puzzles in dungeons. It breaks the monotony of dungeons. They don't have to be anything complicated. But a head-scratcher or two is always a nice change of pace from the constant battling.
Also, this is a personal preference, but I dislike random encounters for the most part. They often happen too often (every 2-3 steps) and I prefer to see the enemies on the screen, that way I can get into the menu real quick and use a potion if I need to. Again, that's just personal preference and I do still play games that have random encounters.
Finally, skills should be useful. I don't necessarily want 20 available skills per character if I'm only going to use 5 of them. On a related note, if one character can poison enemies, make sure that the majority of the time (which is just 51% or higher), they actually poison an enemy. Bosses included. Bosses should have some weaknesses. Some status ailments should effect them. Even final bosses.
Also, this is a personal preference, but I dislike random encounters for the most part. They often happen too often (every 2-3 steps) and I prefer to see the enemies on the screen, that way I can get into the menu real quick and use a potion if I need to. Again, that's just personal preference and I do still play games that have random encounters.
Finally, skills should be useful. I don't necessarily want 20 available skills per character if I'm only going to use 5 of them. On a related note, if one character can poison enemies, make sure that the majority of the time (which is just 51% or higher), they actually poison an enemy. Bosses included. Bosses should have some weaknesses. Some status ailments should effect them. Even final bosses.
Active_Radio
41
Puzzles are a must, of course. I'm going to be trying to making the puzzles as interesting as possible. Golden Sun is probably gonna be a influence as far as dungeon design goes.
As for random encounters, I'll probably will be using them. The encounters won't be too common, and in central puzzle locations they'll most likely be completely removed. I hate trying to figure out a puzzle and not being able to because constant battles.
Finally, skills. I'm not gonna bother with endless skills. I know that a few good are better than many 'meh' skills.
Thanks for the input.
As for random encounters, I'll probably will be using them. The encounters won't be too common, and in central puzzle locations they'll most likely be completely removed. I hate trying to figure out a puzzle and not being able to because constant battles.
Finally, skills. I'm not gonna bother with endless skills. I know that a few good are better than many 'meh' skills.
Thanks for the input.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Short-term goals to keep me interested in what I'm doing are something that dungeon crawlers often fail at. I need quests and item crafting and stuff like that to give me something to play towards. They don't have to be complex goals, but I want to always feel like the end is in sight for at least one thing I'm working on. "Collect five iron shells to get some better armor" is usually a good enough goal, but when I can't beat the enemies that give the shells without spending 30 minutes levelling up first, or can't reach them without going down another floor, the end doesn't feel like it's in sight. When I don't really have anything to do besides level up or wander around looking for the next actual gameplay, I quit playing. Having several goals at any given time is a nice way of combatting this problem.
Aside from that, from a gameplay standpoint, it's probably mostly not that different from a more typical RPG. You're just removing the plot-related goals, so you have to give me some other goals instead.
Aside from that, from a gameplay standpoint, it's probably mostly not that different from a more typical RPG. You're just removing the plot-related goals, so you have to give me some other goals instead.
Active_Radio
41
Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. I'll try to incorporate numerous side-mission type things to liven up the down-time between puzzles and bosses and the like. As for item drops from enemies, I'll make the item drop rate not ridiculously low, which many games think is a wonderful idea. If that's the case, though, the reward for collecting five of a somewhat common item probably isn't going to be amazing, but hey, it's a goal at least.
As far as item crafting goes, I remember attempting to make one a while back, but not having anything to use it with. I could probably implement one into this. Weapon smithing, armor smithing, scrolls, potions, etc.
Allright, thanks for the input. I'll probably use a CMS, so the players will easily be able to check what their current objectives are for side-missions, be it item farming or monster killing.
As far as item crafting goes, I remember attempting to make one a while back, but not having anything to use it with. I could probably implement one into this. Weapon smithing, armor smithing, scrolls, potions, etc.
Allright, thanks for the input. I'll probably use a CMS, so the players will easily be able to check what their current objectives are for side-missions, be it item farming or monster killing.
I like puzzles. But, they have to be creative. The rock pushing type puzzles are just way too often. They also can make you get stuck if a person doesn't make it extremely carefully.
Extras are always appreciated. I like exploring places. I hate it when there is no reward. Think about how long a path will take to explore/solve and compensate. The reward should be equal to the effort put in by the player.
I also like to do collecting. Some type of collecting is a great asset to a game. It gives the player a sense of achievement. Speaking of achievements, I've always like games that have them. The achievements in a game make me want to get all of them, usually meaning completing the game. This doesn't have to be in RPGs only though.
I like games with humor too. I'm not really not sure how you can put that into a dungeon crawler, but maybe you'll figure a way. Easter eggs always seem to do a good job of that (that's why I like the mother games *AKA: Earthbound*).
Endless fighting gets a little boring after awhile. Other aspects of a game should be implemented.
Extras are always appreciated. I like exploring places. I hate it when there is no reward. Think about how long a path will take to explore/solve and compensate. The reward should be equal to the effort put in by the player.
I also like to do collecting. Some type of collecting is a great asset to a game. It gives the player a sense of achievement. Speaking of achievements, I've always like games that have them. The achievements in a game make me want to get all of them, usually meaning completing the game. This doesn't have to be in RPGs only though.
I like games with humor too. I'm not really not sure how you can put that into a dungeon crawler, but maybe you'll figure a way. Easter eggs always seem to do a good job of that (that's why I like the mother games *AKA: Earthbound*).
Endless fighting gets a little boring after awhile. Other aspects of a game should be implemented.
Active_Radio
41
Thanks for the feedback as well. Like I said with puzzles, Golden Sun is probably going to be one of my inspirations. Some of the puzzles in those games (First two, I have yet to play the third) were amazing, in my opinion. Some utilized the entire dungeon.
Along the lines of collecting/achievements, there will almost certainly be collectable items. Useless for the most part, they'll mostly be...well...collectables. From secret enemies, bonus puzzles, hard to reach locations, ect.
Seeing as plot will be somewhat minimal, most humor will probably be from interacting with NPCs, as well as other easter eggs like you suggested. The humor and collectibles will probably blend somewhat together in some cases.
New question for everyone: When choosing classes for PCs, how would you like this handled? I'm considering an almost FFI approach, where the player has options and chooses four, and sticks with those for the game. I personally like that, but I'm somewhat reluctant because if the player chooses something that they realize is a bad combination, they're basically screwed and have to start over. Another method I'm thinking of using is having the players choose their four, but also being able to swap those characters out in the starting area with other classes (though those other classes, if previously unused, will be at the starting level). So, if say, you're an hour or two in and realize "oh, I don't like this damned bard", you can go back and swap him with, say, a cleric. The cleric will be at the starting level, but if you were to reclaim the bard, he/she would still be at the level you left him.
I hope that made sense, not the greatest at organizing my thoughts in a coherent manner.
Along the lines of collecting/achievements, there will almost certainly be collectable items. Useless for the most part, they'll mostly be...well...collectables. From secret enemies, bonus puzzles, hard to reach locations, ect.
Seeing as plot will be somewhat minimal, most humor will probably be from interacting with NPCs, as well as other easter eggs like you suggested. The humor and collectibles will probably blend somewhat together in some cases.
New question for everyone: When choosing classes for PCs, how would you like this handled? I'm considering an almost FFI approach, where the player has options and chooses four, and sticks with those for the game. I personally like that, but I'm somewhat reluctant because if the player chooses something that they realize is a bad combination, they're basically screwed and have to start over. Another method I'm thinking of using is having the players choose their four, but also being able to swap those characters out in the starting area with other classes (though those other classes, if previously unused, will be at the starting level). So, if say, you're an hour or two in and realize "oh, I don't like this damned bard", you can go back and swap him with, say, a cleric. The cleric will be at the starting level, but if you were to reclaim the bard, he/she would still be at the level you left him.
I hope that made sense, not the greatest at organizing my thoughts in a coherent manner.
Irili
3198
What you're basically hinting and hawing at is a system like Etrian Odyssey's class system; of which I fully approve. I might not want that bard right now, but he'll be damn useful later on and I'd like the option to switch him back out with the cleric for maybe a boss battle or something.
Having a central hub to store unused characters and swap out your playing party would be nice. OR, having a main party of four with four other members swap-able in dungeon will work as well. VX Ace has this option.
Having a central hub to store unused characters and swap out your playing party would be nice. OR, having a main party of four with four other members swap-able in dungeon will work as well. VX Ace has this option.
Active_Radio
41
Ah, I haven't played that game before. I don't have a DS, so that's probably why.
My plan is to have locations in towns to swap out party members, or maybe on the base floor/outside of each dungeon. Also, if the dungeon is substantially deep/high, a checkpoint area midway, so the players don't have to go all the wall back to the bottom because their party choice doesn't work with the boss at the bottom/top.
Going back to the item creation idea, I'm thinking of having different item creation possibilities depending on the classes present in the current party. Alchemist create potions, cleric can make holy water, etc.
Also, I'm thinking of including hidden classes, which goes along the lines of secrets/collectibles. They'd most likely be something a bit different from the norm (Though not substantially more powerful than the base classes, then there'd be no real reason to have anything but them).
My plan is to have locations in towns to swap out party members, or maybe on the base floor/outside of each dungeon. Also, if the dungeon is substantially deep/high, a checkpoint area midway, so the players don't have to go all the wall back to the bottom because their party choice doesn't work with the boss at the bottom/top.
Going back to the item creation idea, I'm thinking of having different item creation possibilities depending on the classes present in the current party. Alchemist create potions, cleric can make holy water, etc.
Also, I'm thinking of including hidden classes, which goes along the lines of secrets/collectibles. They'd most likely be something a bit different from the norm (Though not substantially more powerful than the base classes, then there'd be no real reason to have anything but them).
author=Active_Radio
I've realized recently that I should probably do a few smaller projects (instead of undertaking one large one) to get some games up and so maybe a few people will recognize me.
In short, I've decided to work on a dungeon crawler RPG. Pretty standard as far as RPG elements go. Dispatching enemies, beating bosses, collecting items, leveling up, etc, etc. While the multiple dungeons will be the main focus and where the players will spend the most time, there will also be a world map and towns (though those are more from getting from location to location and purchasing equipment, respectively).
The game will be made with RM2k3. It will be either 16 or 8 bit, maybe even 4 bit. I'm shooting for 16 bit as 8 bit crawlers seem to be done quite often, but it all depends on what I end up feeling what the game's atmosphere should be like.
What I'd like to know is what you guys enjoy from a dungeon crawler. Obviously the dungeon design itself will be a crucial aspect, but what added features would you like to see? Alternate leveling systems? Out of combat skills? Added secrets? I'm open to all suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
Make it like Gauntlet and you have a winner
Active_Radio
41
author=Funky_Gun
Make it like Gauntlet and you have a winner
Not exactly what I meant by 'dungeon crawler'.
author=Active_Radioauthor=Funky_GunNot exactly what I meant by 'dungeon crawler'.
Make it like Gauntlet and you have a winner
Make it like Wizardry 2 and you have a winner.
Active_Radio
41
author=Funky_Gun
Make it like Wizardry 2 and you have a winner.
Can't say I've played Wizardry 2, but I'm not really trying to make this like anything. Sure, it will no doubt have similarities with other games (hard to make something completely original nowadays), but I'm not going to attempt to make it like some other game.
author=Active_Radioauthor=Funky_GunCan't say I've played Wizardry 2, but I'm not really trying to make this like anything. Sure, it will no doubt have similarities with other games (hard to make something completely original nowadays), but I'm not going to attempt to make it like some other game.
Make it like Wizardry 2 and you have a winner.
Yeah, I'm saying:
Make the game have some gameplay elements from Wizardry 2 or Gauntlet and you have a winner. Whetherit be design, system, plot set-up, etc.
Active_Radio
41
A'ight. I'll attempt to play Wizardry 2 one of these days, and see what I think. Who knows, might learn something from it.
author=Active_Radio
Thanks for the feedback as well. Like I said with puzzles, Golden Sun is probably going to be one of my inspirations. Some of the puzzles in those games (First two, I have yet to play the third) were amazing, in my opinion. Some utilized the entire dungeon.
Along the lines of collecting/achievements, there will almost certainly be collectable items. Useless for the most part, they'll mostly be...well...collectables. From secret enemies, bonus puzzles, hard to reach locations, ect.
Seeing as plot will be somewhat minimal, most humor will probably be from interacting with NPCs, as well as other easter eggs like you suggested. The humor and collectibles will probably blend somewhat together in some cases.
New question for everyone: When choosing classes for PCs, how would you like this handled? I'm considering an almost FFI approach, where the player has options and chooses four, and sticks with those for the game. I personally like that, but I'm somewhat reluctant because if the player chooses something that they realize is a bad combination, they're basically screwed and have to start over. Another method I'm thinking of using is having the players choose their four, but also being able to swap those characters out in the starting area with other classes (though those other classes, if previously unused, will be at the starting level). So, if say, you're an hour or two in and realize "oh, I don't like this damned bard", you can go back and swap him with, say, a cleric. The cleric will be at the starting level, but if you were to reclaim the bard, he/she would still be at the level you left him.
I hope that made sense, not the greatest at organizing my thoughts in a coherent manner.
About the classes: Dragon quest IX has a pretty interesting one. When the player changes a characters class they instantly become level 1 in that class. If the character is changed back to a class that the character was previously skillful in (higher than level 1) the character goes back to that level they were at and and continues from there. This could probably be done pretty easily with an input # command.
Just like you though, I've never even heard of Gauntlet or Wizardry 2.
Active_Radio
41
author=Blobofgoo
About the classes: Dragon quest IX has a pretty interesting one. When the player changes a characters class they instantly become level 1 in that class. If the character is changed back to a class that the character was previously skillful in (higher than level 1) the character goes back to that level they were at and and continues from there. This could probably be done pretty easily with an input # command.
Just like you though, I've never even heard of Gauntlet or Wizardry 2.
I know of and have played Gauntlet, but not Wizardy 2.
I considered something along those lines for party creation, but I think I'll stick with just having a character for each class. It encourages some diversity, since players won't be able to have more than one of the same class in their party. At game start, I'm going to have gender choice and name creation for each of the base party members (I'm thinking about six). As for secret classes, the player can choose their gender and name once unlocking them. I have ideas for two secret classes so far, but not what needs to be done to unlock them. I'm thinking of doing something maybe along the lines of Disgaea, where reaching certain levels with some classes allows others, or something similar.
I might only be speaking for myself, but what I like to see from a dungeon crawler, or any game with an emphasis on exploration, is map movement and combat integrated.
Your typical JRPG has you moving around a map when boom! A sudden enemy encounter whisks you away to a completely different scene in which you must fight each and every enemy to the death right then and there. Either that or try your luck with some form of an "Escape" menu option, which, on failure, ends up wasting your turn--and your time. After it's over and you've waited for your character to finish a silly victory animation, you are at last returned to the map scene where you must now attempt to remember what the hell you were doing at the time that battle scene rudely interrupted your exploration.
Segregating map movement from combat breaks the flow of things in ways I don't care for.
Here's some examples of integrated movement and combat:
- Action RPGs, obviously, including 3D games like Elder Scrolls as well as 2D ones like Gauntlet.
- RPGs that are made to appear like action RPGs but actually aren't, such as Dragon Age and FF12. (It's in real-time but it's not so much about hand-eye coordination)
- Diablo, roguelikes, and single-person-party turn-based crawlers.
- First person adventure/RPG hybrids, including point-and-click fare, can sometimes accommodate this.
- Tactical RPGs (although adapting one to a dungeon crawler might be tricky)
I have a preference for any of the above over any system inspired by Dragon Quest. not that I don't respect Dragon Quest
Your typical JRPG has you moving around a map when boom! A sudden enemy encounter whisks you away to a completely different scene in which you must fight each and every enemy to the death right then and there. Either that or try your luck with some form of an "Escape" menu option, which, on failure, ends up wasting your turn--and your time. After it's over and you've waited for your character to finish a silly victory animation, you are at last returned to the map scene where you must now attempt to remember what the hell you were doing at the time that battle scene rudely interrupted your exploration.
Segregating map movement from combat breaks the flow of things in ways I don't care for.
Here's some examples of integrated movement and combat:
- Action RPGs, obviously, including 3D games like Elder Scrolls as well as 2D ones like Gauntlet.
- RPGs that are made to appear like action RPGs but actually aren't, such as Dragon Age and FF12. (It's in real-time but it's not so much about hand-eye coordination)
- Diablo, roguelikes, and single-person-party turn-based crawlers.
- First person adventure/RPG hybrids, including point-and-click fare, can sometimes accommodate this.
- Tactical RPGs (although adapting one to a dungeon crawler might be tricky)
I have a preference for any of the above over any system inspired by Dragon Quest. not that I don't respect Dragon Quest
Active_Radio
41
While I completely agree with you, and you have numerous points, the game will almost certainly be a typical RPG, in the battle system, anyways. While I'd love to have the battles take place on the maps themselves, with little to no transistion, I just don't have the technical prowess at this point to do so. I simply cannot create a CBS that would work for this.
Thanks for the input, nonetheless. It's appreciated.
Thanks for the input, nonetheless. It's appreciated.
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