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DISCUSS: CHARACTER GENERATION
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kentona
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CloseCreating the Player Character
There are many ways to introduce the player to their avatar, and I will briefly introduce you to three of them: blank-slate character generation, class selection, and the foundling approach.
Character Generation
At the start of the game, the player is immediately presented with a series of screens from which they must make several choices about the avatar's name, gender, looks, race, profession, specializations, and a myriad of other traits, stats and skills. A player may be given a limited number of points to distribute into stats or skills, or points may be randomly "rolled" and assigned to determine an avatar's intial stats and skills. Example: Baldur's Gate
Advantages:
Class Selection
The player is given a choice of different professional classes and is asked to name their avatar. Example: Diablo II
Advantages:
Foundling Approach
The player is immediately given control of an avatar but does not control initial attributes. The player usually has some limited control in how the avatar develops. Example: Final Fantasy VII
Advantages:
Of course, these are just three specific examples. I've seen combinations of approaches (like a foundling approach that eventually allows to select a class) or even shades of one of the approaches.
DISCUSSION QUESTION:
What kind of approach do you prefer to put in your game?
What kind of approach do you like to play?
Is there a specific RPG that is a good example of the approach you like?
Are there other approaches that I've missed?
There are many ways to introduce the player to their avatar, and I will briefly introduce you to three of them: blank-slate character generation, class selection, and the foundling approach.
Character Generation
At the start of the game, the player is immediately presented with a series of screens from which they must make several choices about the avatar's name, gender, looks, race, profession, specializations, and a myriad of other traits, stats and skills. A player may be given a limited number of points to distribute into stats or skills, or points may be randomly "rolled" and assigned to determine an avatar's intial stats and skills. Example: Baldur's Gate
Advantages:
- gives a significant amount of control to the player
- popular with people who are familiar with role-playing games in general
- can be initially overwhelming
- bars quick entry into a game
- can suffer from poor character personality development
Class Selection
The player is given a choice of different professional classes and is asked to name their avatar. Example: Diablo II
Advantages:
- allows players to very quickly identify the basic kind of character they want to play
- quick turnaround from starting game to playing
- typically bound to class and level system
- stuck with whatever skills and restrictions are associated with that class
Foundling Approach
The player is immediately given control of an avatar but does not control initial attributes. The player usually has some limited control in how the avatar develops. Example: Final Fantasy VII
Advantages:
- the player is not required to understand any of the complexities of classes, skills, or attributes
- can immediately jump into the gameplay
- the player is stuck with a main character they haven't chosen and who may not reflect the kind of character that the player wants to play
Of course, these are just three specific examples. I've seen combinations of approaches (like a foundling approach that eventually allows to select a class) or even shades of one of the approaches.
DISCUSSION QUESTION:
What kind of approach do you prefer to put in your game?
What kind of approach do you like to play?
Is there a specific RPG that is a good example of the approach you like?
Are there other approaches that I've missed?
I love character customization. Everything from the stats, skills, and equippable items, to the looks and maybe even the personality.
Top Tier
Elder Scrolls: offers a tremendous amount of this.
Final Fantasy 5: class system is brilliant. Very revolutionary for the time.
Ogre Battle: Near limitless possibilities for building your army.
Final Fantasy Tactics: Absolutely awesome skill system.
Dragon Warrior 3: Yay generic custom classes!
Middle Tier
World of Warcraft: Talent trees are awesome. But cookie-cutter builds are way better than experimentation.
Seiken Densetsu 3: Class trees based on good/evil and character select. Neat.
Final Fantasy 6: Huge character selection pool, but low customization.
Chrono Trigger: Somewhat big character selection pool, and dual/triple techs.
Final Fantasy 1: The PROTOTYPE of class systems.
Low Tier
Final Fantasies 7,8,9,etc: Meh... the illusion of variety. Not very balanced.
Final Fantasy 4: Awesome game, but everyone's party is the same every playthrough.
Dragon Warrior 4: The party switch system is revolutionary, but static characters.
Secret of Mana: Exact same party every time. Still though, awesome game.
Top Tier
Elder Scrolls: offers a tremendous amount of this.
Final Fantasy 5: class system is brilliant. Very revolutionary for the time.
Ogre Battle: Near limitless possibilities for building your army.
Final Fantasy Tactics: Absolutely awesome skill system.
Dragon Warrior 3: Yay generic custom classes!
Middle Tier
World of Warcraft: Talent trees are awesome. But cookie-cutter builds are way better than experimentation.
Seiken Densetsu 3: Class trees based on good/evil and character select. Neat.
Final Fantasy 6: Huge character selection pool, but low customization.
Chrono Trigger: Somewhat big character selection pool, and dual/triple techs.
Final Fantasy 1: The PROTOTYPE of class systems.
Low Tier
Final Fantasies 7,8,9,etc: Meh... the illusion of variety. Not very balanced.
Final Fantasy 4: Awesome game, but everyone's party is the same every playthrough.
Dragon Warrior 4: The party switch system is revolutionary, but static characters.
Secret of Mana: Exact same party every time. Still though, awesome game.
What about generation as-you-play (Oblivion, Fable, FFXII)?
Anyway, I'd like to say the Generation is my favorite... but I really love jobs. It adds coherence to the game; FFX-2, FF5 and FF3 all took getting used to but ROCKED once you figured everything out (FF5 especially).
Alsoalsoalso what about "moddable" jobs via equipment? I find that fun. It's mostly seen in tactics games-- learning skills and permanent stat boosts from equipment.
Anyway, I'd like to say the Generation is my favorite... but I really love jobs. It adds coherence to the game; FFX-2, FF5 and FF3 all took getting used to but ROCKED once you figured everything out (FF5 especially).
Alsoalsoalso what about "moddable" jobs via equipment? I find that fun. It's mostly seen in tactics games-- learning skills and permanent stat boosts from equipment.
I got two right now:
The first plays more like a FF5/FFT in that you can choose from a set of classes that you have to unlock. At the start everyone is the same bottom tier class and as you progress in the game you unlock new classes. You learn new skills by getting levels while having that class and you can change classes when you're in town. Changing classes reduces your level to level 1 but it doesn't reduce your stats at all. Its very possible to get very powerful just reseting the class over and over and getting the first couple of levels of stat gains. There was originally a stat drop when you changed classes but I didn't like it so it got dropped. I'm currently rebalancing the entire game (each class offers specific growth rates at level up and I changed them all) so I'll see how that works out.
My other is more like SD3: Everyone starts off as a character-specific class but later in the game characters can change their classes to a higher tiered class. There's a selection of classes available based on what classes were unlocked (which is done by progressing the main plot and sidequests) and some characters are barred from certain classes. The change is permenant but the character can still use any skills and lear new skills from their previous classes. The character's maximum level also increases when they upgrade to a new class. The second class is added on top of the previous and the character gets the best of both. For example, if the character's first class has a HP multiplier of 1.06 and the new one has a multiplier of 1.03, the character keeps the lower class' 1.06 multiplier instead of the 1.03. (Numbers tentative)
There's a thir tier class too that's the same deal with the second, just a new set of classes that removes the level cap and caps on stats too.
One of the problems I had with FF5's class change system is that the classes you were before didn't carry anything (significantly) over when you chaged class except for abilities, of which you could only ever pick one with the exception of the Freelancer and Mime classes (who could pick 2/3 abilities respectively and they got all non-equipment passive skills, like HP+30%). It'd be nice if characters who were a Knight from level 1-10 were more combat oriented than someone who was a Black Mage from level 1-10 then changed classes to Knight. It felt like the only difference would be the class level and what abilities they could use instead of anything stat wise.
The first plays more like a FF5/FFT in that you can choose from a set of classes that you have to unlock. At the start everyone is the same bottom tier class and as you progress in the game you unlock new classes. You learn new skills by getting levels while having that class and you can change classes when you're in town. Changing classes reduces your level to level 1 but it doesn't reduce your stats at all. Its very possible to get very powerful just reseting the class over and over and getting the first couple of levels of stat gains. There was originally a stat drop when you changed classes but I didn't like it so it got dropped. I'm currently rebalancing the entire game (each class offers specific growth rates at level up and I changed them all) so I'll see how that works out.
My other is more like SD3: Everyone starts off as a character-specific class but later in the game characters can change their classes to a higher tiered class. There's a selection of classes available based on what classes were unlocked (which is done by progressing the main plot and sidequests) and some characters are barred from certain classes. The change is permenant but the character can still use any skills and lear new skills from their previous classes. The character's maximum level also increases when they upgrade to a new class. The second class is added on top of the previous and the character gets the best of both. For example, if the character's first class has a HP multiplier of 1.06 and the new one has a multiplier of 1.03, the character keeps the lower class' 1.06 multiplier instead of the 1.03. (Numbers tentative)
There's a thir tier class too that's the same deal with the second, just a new set of classes that removes the level cap and caps on stats too.
One of the problems I had with FF5's class change system is that the classes you were before didn't carry anything (significantly) over when you chaged class except for abilities, of which you could only ever pick one with the exception of the Freelancer and Mime classes (who could pick 2/3 abilities respectively and they got all non-equipment passive skills, like HP+30%). It'd be nice if characters who were a Knight from level 1-10 were more combat oriented than someone who was a Black Mage from level 1-10 then changed classes to Knight. It felt like the only difference would be the class level and what abilities they could use instead of anything stat wise.
In FF5, different characters have their own unique inherent traits (same in FFX-2, actually). Lenna is geared towards being a mage, for example, while Faris leans towards high-speed classes (iirc). So if you played to that character's strengths, then~!
But yeah I know what you mean. Are there any SNES-era rpgs with that sort of development?
But yeah I know what you mean. Are there any SNES-era rpgs with that sort of development?
Shinan
4314
One system I don't think has been mentioned is the Background check system. I haven't seen it in very many games but I remember that Ogre Battle and Jagged Alliance 2 had it. Background check is a system where you answer a bunch of questions and the character is modified depending on your answers.
Another related way is a way found in certain tabletop RPGs. Where you create the character from the ground up. Rolling on(or choosing from) various tables with different background events that shape the character as he/she grows up. Opening up certain skill choices at different times of the game.
Advantages:
For me I am a tabletop RPGer so I always prefer the point buy (I prefer point buy over random roll) with loads of skills to choose from. Games like Arcanum and Fallout are favorites. But also Vampire Bloodlines had a really good system. I also prefer games where the original approach isn't the most important and that if you made some bad choices in the beginning it isn't impossible to turn around. (like in Vampire Bloodlines where you had a very limited amount of points to use at the start, but got loads of them during gameplay)
I'm also a big fan of Skill-based versus class-based. And in tabletop I prefer experience-based to levelbased. Skillbased is where the skills aren't restricted to a certain class and that any classes you make are entirely your own. The you can actually be a proper jack-of-all-trades. But you will suck at most things. And it's all up to you what you suck at. The problem with these kinds of systems is to balance the skills out. There's usually a couple of skills that are completely useless.
experience-based vs levelbased is where you get better at things through experience rather than getting a certain amount of experience points and suddenly you have a levelup. It can be done in different ways. In Vampire BLoodlines you got experience points throughout the game that could be used to buy points in skills and abilities. There's also the approach of Silent Storm where you get better at skills as you use them. I prefer some kind of combination where you can get points in something you use but you also get "free" points that you can use on skills you'd like to have but don't (or just buff up those you use all the time even more)
Of course these last two pragraphs weren't about character generation but character development. But those two go together a lot. You can't have an experience system that is completely different from the generation system. If you do it'll probably suck.
Another related way is a way found in certain tabletop RPGs. Where you create the character from the ground up. Rolling on(or choosing from) various tables with different background events that shape the character as he/she grows up. Opening up certain skill choices at different times of the game.
Advantages:
- Simple while also making the player think about the personality of the character.
- Has unpredictable results at times. Forcing a character that you don't really want. (most games counter this by making it possible to modify the character after the questions)
- If the game is replayed some of those questions might feel a bit repetitive. There's also the possibilty that the questions just are downright stupid.
For me I am a tabletop RPGer so I always prefer the point buy (I prefer point buy over random roll) with loads of skills to choose from. Games like Arcanum and Fallout are favorites. But also Vampire Bloodlines had a really good system. I also prefer games where the original approach isn't the most important and that if you made some bad choices in the beginning it isn't impossible to turn around. (like in Vampire Bloodlines where you had a very limited amount of points to use at the start, but got loads of them during gameplay)
I'm also a big fan of Skill-based versus class-based. And in tabletop I prefer experience-based to levelbased. Skillbased is where the skills aren't restricted to a certain class and that any classes you make are entirely your own. The you can actually be a proper jack-of-all-trades. But you will suck at most things. And it's all up to you what you suck at. The problem with these kinds of systems is to balance the skills out. There's usually a couple of skills that are completely useless.
experience-based vs levelbased is where you get better at things through experience rather than getting a certain amount of experience points and suddenly you have a levelup. It can be done in different ways. In Vampire BLoodlines you got experience points throughout the game that could be used to buy points in skills and abilities. There's also the approach of Silent Storm where you get better at skills as you use them. I prefer some kind of combination where you can get points in something you use but you also get "free" points that you can use on skills you'd like to have but don't (or just buff up those you use all the time even more)
Of course these last two pragraphs weren't about character generation but character development. But those two go together a lot. You can't have an experience system that is completely different from the generation system. If you do it'll probably suck.
I liked the idea behind FFV - multiple classes that you can switch between the PCs.
FFVI had an excellent character system imho. Every character has their own special ability. Every character can learn magic. Level-up bonuses can be controlled by equipping different magicite. Other special abilities can be achieved by equipping relics.
Awesome.
Diablo II's class system + skill trees is also very fun.
FFVI had an excellent character system imho. Every character has their own special ability. Every character can learn magic. Level-up bonuses can be controlled by equipping different magicite. Other special abilities can be achieved by equipping relics.
Awesome.
Diablo II's class system + skill trees is also very fun.
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