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META GAMES
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Trihan
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CloseMy question for you all today is, what are your opinions on "meta" games?
"What the fuck is a meta game, Trihan?" I hear you ask.
By meta game I mean one where the focus is progression outwith the game itself. For example, the Achievement Unlocked or Upgrade Complete series.
Personally I think they're a lot more clever than they're given credit for, especially Achievement Unlocked. In the current climate (for X360 owners at least) gamerscore seems to be the biggest indicator of self-worth, so I always found a game where the whole point is unlocking achievements to be quite amusing.
It says something that I enjoy games about unlocking achievements and upgrading the game more than some proper games out there.
And on a final note, the fact that in Upgrade Complete you can't even buy things until you buy the shop menu screen (and have to buy the preloader for the game) is genius.
"What the fuck is a meta game, Trihan?" I hear you ask.
By meta game I mean one where the focus is progression outwith the game itself. For example, the Achievement Unlocked or Upgrade Complete series.
Personally I think they're a lot more clever than they're given credit for, especially Achievement Unlocked. In the current climate (for X360 owners at least) gamerscore seems to be the biggest indicator of self-worth, so I always found a game where the whole point is unlocking achievements to be quite amusing.
It says something that I enjoy games about unlocking achievements and upgrading the game more than some proper games out there.
And on a final note, the fact that in Upgrade Complete you can't even buy things until you buy the shop menu screen (and have to buy the preloader for the game) is genius.
Hmm. On one side, I hate this idea. It's pointless and stupid. On the other side, if the writer is any good, this could be absolutely hilarious.
Biggamefreak
1799
When I think about meta games, I think about Retro Game Challenge for the Nintendo DS. You play as a young gamer who plays video games with his friend. You play many games that look and feel like NES games. There is even an RPG like Dragon Quest in this game.
Are you talking about games in games, or games that are primarily self aware of its gameplay features/interfaces?
Are you talking about games in games, or games that are primarily self aware of its gameplay features/interfaces?
Achievements are a good motivation, but I hate them if they're shown as some cheesy "YAY YOU DID THIS HAVE A STICKER" kind of moment in a serious game. I think in serious games, your efforts and achievements should be noted by an NPC or something so it seems like it's still part of the story itself (see this thread). Perhaps an army official or something along those lines who you go back and speak to throughout the game will mention that your achievements in battle have been noted (AKA, you killed 100 men, you killed the side quest boss, you married a dog, etc., etc..)
Also, 360 achievements annoy me.
*watching really cool cutscene, "Bloop, you have an achievement! But I'm not going to tell you what it is. I will just hint at it briefly before I disappear forever! Bwahaha!" *
... sigh, *finds out what achievement is, misses rest of cutscene, finds out it was just a progression achievement*
I know you can just check your achievements later through the 360 menu, but I forget. Mainly because I didn't really care in the first place, because it's usually just a progression achievement.
Which annoy me too. Oh, you got this far in the game? I think being that far in the game is obviously rewarding enough without you telling me, thanks. I defeated the big dragon man? Well, I kinda already guessed that. It's gotten to the point where if I don't get an achievement for killing a boss, I think, "GASP, maybe he's not dead! What an unexpected plot twist!"
TLDR;
- Achievements are fun in non-serious games and can be very motivating and a game in itself to collect them all.
- I hate achievements for progressing in the game.
- Ii would be cool to have a more serious way to deal with achievements in more serious games.
- I think a game JUST about achievements (Minecraft does this sorta, but they're a bit pointless) would be nice. I just hate how it spoils games whose developers appear to have just tacked them on as an afterthought.
Also, 360 achievements annoy me.
*watching really cool cutscene, "Bloop, you have an achievement! But I'm not going to tell you what it is. I will just hint at it briefly before I disappear forever! Bwahaha!" *
... sigh, *finds out what achievement is, misses rest of cutscene, finds out it was just a progression achievement*
I know you can just check your achievements later through the 360 menu, but I forget. Mainly because I didn't really care in the first place, because it's usually just a progression achievement.
Which annoy me too. Oh, you got this far in the game? I think being that far in the game is obviously rewarding enough without you telling me, thanks. I defeated the big dragon man? Well, I kinda already guessed that. It's gotten to the point where if I don't get an achievement for killing a boss, I think, "GASP, maybe he's not dead! What an unexpected plot twist!"
TLDR;
- Achievements are fun in non-serious games and can be very motivating and a game in itself to collect them all.
- I hate achievements for progressing in the game.
- Ii would be cool to have a more serious way to deal with achievements in more serious games.
- I think a game JUST about achievements (Minecraft does this sorta, but they're a bit pointless) would be nice. I just hate how it spoils games whose developers appear to have just tacked them on as an afterthought.
I think that every game that has an achievement system in which other people's achievements can be compared to your own should have one achievement for completing the beginning of the game, one for beating it, one for beating the hardest challenge within it, and, if it has more achievements, one for getting every other achievement. (Trine is a game that I think implemented this well--looking at the achievements on Steam lets you know how much or how little you've accomplished at most major junctures. In conjunction with its high replayability, I quite happily tried for and obtained every achievement in it.)
We're getting slightly off-topic here, so I'll try to steer it back a bit. I wasn't trying to incite discussion only on achievements; Achievement Unlocked was just an example of the type of meta game I meant.
The point of the discussion was really around the merits of games where the goal lies outwith the mechanics of the game itself. So a simple platform game where the goal is to unlock achievements by doing as many random things as possible, or a top-down shoot-em-up where you progress by unlocking the features of the game as opposed to upgrading your ship.
The point of the discussion was really around the merits of games where the goal lies outwith the mechanics of the game itself. So a simple platform game where the goal is to unlock achievements by doing as many random things as possible, or a top-down shoot-em-up where you progress by unlocking the features of the game as opposed to upgrading your ship.
Hm.. so, a bit like Scribblenauts? A platformer where you had to do weird, WEIRD things like helping an old lady across the road or getting a dinosaur to eat seven sharks while using as few items as possible/on a time limit/without the dinosaur eating all of the old ladies you just helped across the road? I guess that's a bad example because there were only about three achievements per level, but I do get what you mean. The aim of each level or what-have-you is to get all of the achievements you possibly can before mashing your head into a wall.
I've played very few games of that genre (they've mainly been flash games), but what I have played has been enjoyable. Particularly if you're competing against other people to show off which of the achievements you've actually done and they haven't.. but without other people, you can start to see how they may become a bit pointless and only ever self-gratifying.
I've played very few games of that genre (they've mainly been flash games), but what I have played has been enjoyable. Particularly if you're competing against other people to show off which of the achievements you've actually done and they haven't.. but without other people, you can start to see how they may become a bit pointless and only ever self-gratifying.
Sam
2200
I think you'd get a kick out of a game called DLC Quest. In it you collect coins to "buy" DLC with. They take it to the extremes in that even the ability to move left is "DLC"! You have to obtain animation, music, jumping etc.
Biggamefreak
1799
So you like games that are self aware of the player's achievements and upgrades(Achievement Unlocked), rather than the upgrades be integrated in the games(Metroid)?
If that's the case, "meta games" these kind of games are funny to me, because they parody the features that we enjoy and hate in games. I have never bought any DLC, because I am against buying a game that is 60 percent complete. It's a good thing that these games point out these modern game flaws in the form of humor.
Achievements that spawn victory popups are also immersion breakers. Do game designers want us to do 100-hit combos, juggle balls, and collect 50 fireflies instead of complete the narrative of the game or do something cool that we "invented" ourselves? Achievement pop-ups for me can excite or bore me.
These elements of modern games are not too great and if they were scrapped in future games, I wouldn't miss them. I'll stick to getting valuable rewards, secret areas, and in-game record keeping as my sense of achievement. Meta games are nice because they can put modern game design into interesting perspectives as we look at other mediums that break the fourth wall to make fun of themselves. Who knows what other ridiculous things will exist for meta games to ridicule.
If that's the case, "meta games" these kind of games are funny to me, because they parody the features that we enjoy and hate in games. I have never bought any DLC, because I am against buying a game that is 60 percent complete. It's a good thing that these games point out these modern game flaws in the form of humor.
Achievements that spawn victory popups are also immersion breakers. Do game designers want us to do 100-hit combos, juggle balls, and collect 50 fireflies instead of complete the narrative of the game or do something cool that we "invented" ourselves? Achievement pop-ups for me can excite or bore me.
These elements of modern games are not too great and if they were scrapped in future games, I wouldn't miss them. I'll stick to getting valuable rewards, secret areas, and in-game record keeping as my sense of achievement. Meta games are nice because they can put modern game design into interesting perspectives as we look at other mediums that break the fourth wall to make fun of themselves. Who knows what other ridiculous things will exist for meta games to ridicule.
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