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Closeauthor=Dyhalto
Pretty much any attempt to make a strong female character can be construed as deliberate gender swap. Even emphasizing physical characteristics can be misinterpreted as sexualization...
Yeah, there's just no winning here. At the end of the day people will always see what they want to see -things that aren't there, and point their finger at you for thinking otherwise. And the saddest part is that the argument will often devolve into how we're all slaves of a 'misogynistic culture', essentially rendering the discussion pointless and ruining all attempts of reaching an understanding.
_
On a slightly less bitter note, whenever this kind topic pops up I always wonder: Why some people find it so hard to understand that what they see on the screen is for their entertainment only? (And that's one reason why I favor for works of fiction to display their proper warnings.) Why do people seek role models in a bunch of pixels? Why a single polygonal character must be representative of an entire group of people? Why? Why? Why? ...I mean, am I missing a part in my brain that links reality with fiction or something? xP
*Sigh* This topic has me real tired. Can't we discuss how RMN is full of assholes instead? We haven't had one of those in a while.
Edit: Yes. I think the key word is "Nowadays". Nowadays we can start to see past gender roles because they can no longer truly define us.
Why then are we so reluctant to escape the notion that videogames and other works of fiction have the power to affect our lives? =|
author=alterego
Now, on a slightly less bitter note, whenever this kind topic pops up I always wonder: Why some people find it so hard to understand that what they see on the screen is for their entertainment only? (And that's one reason why I favor for works of fiction to always display their proper warnings.) Why do people seek role models in bunchs of pixels? Why a single 3D model must be representative of an entire group of people? Why? Why? Why? ...I mean, am I missing a part in my brain that links reality with fiction or something? xP
Since the brink of humanity we seet to imprint ourselves into long, lasting images, into culture. Books, films, music, religion, popular stories, et cetera, at one form or another exist ever since humans are humans. And their deepest intent is NOT to entertain. Perhaps nowdays it may be, but our brains do have an instinct to, even if remotely, relate to the images of the characters.
>A>
author=VirtualVampire
@sana
Ive seen Bayonetta too, I have much respect for its DMC like battle engine, but I've also seen her "climax" finisher moves. I kind of hate how the designers made her strip to finish off a boss. I think nudity is a wonderful or powerful thing at times, like in art but was it really necessary in the game? And when she uses her finishing move on the enemy Joy, its basically S&M. In my mind this just down played her character to nothing more but a sex symbol, that and the 6 inch gun heels.
I used to feel this way too. But now I'm thinking that Bayonetta is unique in a way that she uses her sexuality in a very...progressive way??? In the fact that she owns her sexuality, it's hers, and she uses it for her own ends but not exclusively reliant on it. To contrast, more often than not, female sexuality in media is reduced to 'getting fucked.'
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You say "nothing more than a sex symbol" like a sex symbol is somehow less. This is what I was saying before that I don't understand. Why the hate on sex symbols?
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=VirtualVampireI used to feel this way too. But now I'm thinking that Bayonetta is unique in a way that she uses her sexuality in a very...progressive way??? In the fact that she owns her sexuality, it's hers, and she uses it for her own ends but not exclusively reliant on it. To contrast, more often than not, female sexuality in media is reduced to 'getting fucked.'
@sana
Ive seen Bayonetta too, I have much respect for its DMC like battle engine, but I've also seen her "climax" finisher moves. I kind of hate how the designers made her strip to finish off a boss. I think nudity is a wonderful or powerful thing at times, like in art but was it really necessary in the game? And when she uses her finishing move on the enemy Joy, its basically S&M. In my mind this just down played her character to nothing more but a sex symbol, that and the 6 inch gun heels.
Touche,
author=LockeZ
You say "nothing more than a sex symbol" like a sex symbol is somehow less. This is what I was saying before that I don't understand. Why the hate on sex symbols?
author=LockeZ
You say "nothing more than a sex symbol" like a sex symbol is somehow less. This is what I was saying before that I don't understand. Why the hate on sex symbols?
Because its over used in the media and the gaming industry. I can understand having a female protagonist be visually attractive in game, but what I can not abide by is its over use. I want you name 5 female protagonists in current main stream gaming that have a genuine personality and are not designed as eye candy aka huge breast, nice ass, partially nude or the cute girl who has to be in a clingy relationship with another male lead.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Um, momentarily ignoring the fact that more than five have been listed in this topic already, I'll go with Aveline in Dragon Age 2, Leah in Diablo 3, Serah in FF13-2, Dr. Vahlen in X-Com: Enemy Unknown, and Jaina Proudmoore in World of Warcraft?
Shit dude, those weren't even the best ones to pick, they were just the female leads in the last five games I played.
Like, you say it's overused, but it's actually really rare for main characters, less than 10% of female main characters fall into those roles. The reason it's so rare is because you people keep complaining about it so much, and it drives me insane, because sex appeal is honestly great and more games need to have it. Can you name five main characters in mainstream games that do fall into that category?
"cute girl who has to be in a clingy relationship with another male lead" isn't a thing by the way, the idea that a character being in a relationship with another character is a horrible cliche that needs to die is the dumbest thing I've ever heard
Shit dude, those weren't even the best ones to pick, they were just the female leads in the last five games I played.
Like, you say it's overused, but it's actually really rare for main characters, less than 10% of female main characters fall into those roles. The reason it's so rare is because you people keep complaining about it so much, and it drives me insane, because sex appeal is honestly great and more games need to have it. Can you name five main characters in mainstream games that do fall into that category?
"cute girl who has to be in a clingy relationship with another male lead" isn't a thing by the way, the idea that a character being in a relationship with another character is a horrible cliche that needs to die is the dumbest thing I've ever heard
But it's true that sexuality should be explored in an intelligent way, not OH GAMRZ HAV IT UR NOZS WLL BLEED
This is why Feldschlacht IV managed to make me wanna play Bayonetta so hard.(no pun intended) @-@
It's different to have a character that's sexually attractive and KNOWS it than a character that
HEY
MY CLOTHES GET SHREDDED THE WHOLE GAME
OH AND NO CHARACTER NOTICES IT'S JUST THAR FOR DA PLAYER TO ENJOY
(especially when they do this to MY AYA BREA ;~;)
But then comes the fact that most games can't show that the characters are aware of their sexuality. For example, Lulu's huge, jiggly, exposed breats and extremely seductive personality are obvious attractive to some male characters. It's even hinted that Tidus feels physically attracted to her (wich is pretty much a miracle) once, in Guadosalam. But there's a huge gap between that and she appearing pregnant in the sequel! And this gap is due to sensorshit... Wich is ridiculous. I mean, due to it characters suddenly jump from single to pregnant @.@
It was kind of clear that wakka and Lulu'd end together, but not that they'd have sex. After all sex doesn't exist in japanese RPGs
This is why Feldschlacht IV managed to make me wanna play Bayonetta so hard.(no pun intended) @-@
It's different to have a character that's sexually attractive and KNOWS it than a character that
HEY
MY CLOTHES GET SHREDDED THE WHOLE GAME
OH AND NO CHARACTER NOTICES IT'S JUST THAR FOR DA PLAYER TO ENJOY
(especially when they do this to MY AYA BREA ;~;)
But then comes the fact that most games can't show that the characters are aware of their sexuality. For example, Lulu's huge, jiggly, exposed breats and extremely seductive personality are obvious attractive to some male characters. It's even hinted that Tidus feels physically attracted to her (wich is pretty much a miracle) once, in Guadosalam. But there's a huge gap between that and she appearing pregnant in the sequel! And this gap is due to sensorshit... Wich is ridiculous. I mean, due to it characters suddenly jump from single to pregnant @.@
It was kind of clear that wakka and Lulu'd end together, but not that they'd have sex. After all sex doesn't exist in japanese RPGs
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=JosephSeraph
But it's true that sexuality should be explored in an intelligent way, not OH GAMRZ HAV IT UR NOZS WLL BLEED
I disagree, I think brainless pervy stuff is good too. Sometimes that is just what I'm in the mood for.
Mr_Detective
60
author=VirtualVampire
I want you name 5 female protagonists in current main stream gaming that have a genuine personality and are not designed as eye candy aka huge breast, nice ass, partially nude or the cute girl who has to be in a clingy relationship with another male lead.
- Lieutenant 45
- Jill Valentine
- Sheva Alomar
- Julia Chang
- Asuka Kazama
Tee hee :D
author=LockeZauthor=JosephSeraphI disagree, I think brainless pervy stuff is good too. Sometimes that is just what I'm in the mood for.
But it's true that sexuality should be explored in an intelligent way, not OH GAMRZ HAV IT UR NOZS WLL BLEED
You have to be retarded to not realize that there is a sort of a big issue with female objectification in the media.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If a sex symbol is objectification, then so is a comedy symbol or a heroic symbol. There's no difference. Eroticism, comedy and heroism are all things that intrinsically connect with humans, that we want to see and we seek out. None of them are "better" than others. When we see one of these things we pay more attention to it than to many other things, and this is natural and good. People become actors, models or celebrities in order to embody these roles. And even outside of the media, it's totally natural for a person to represent an idea to another person, because we can never know every aspect of another person, only the bits that are shown to us, and those parts we see become our definition of that person. We unavoidably "objectify" every single person in the world simply by only seeing the parts of them that are shown to us. It's not something that causes adverse effects, and it's insane to suggest that it's something to be avoided.
Your idea that sex-symbol objectification is worse than heroic-symbol objectification is, once again, based on the premise that sex is worse than heroism. Why? Where did this belief come from? I would expect such a belief from my 57 year old baptist parents, but not from most of the people in this thread.
Your idea that sex-symbol objectification is worse than heroic-symbol objectification is, once again, based on the premise that sex is worse than heroism. Why? Where did this belief come from? I would expect such a belief from my 57 year old baptist parents, but not from most of the people in this thread.
Just because human beings have a tendency to objectify others rather easily doesn't mean we should encourage such behaviour. Objectification as a whole is bad and 21st century dudes and dudettes have a duty to look at the bigger picture IMO. This includes whatever the media decides to spew as acceptable character designs.
EDIT: Although, to be honest I don't have that much of a problem with revealing outfits as long as there's a decent amount of personality to the characters wearing them. But I'm a guy so maybe I don't know any better? Idk. There are so many shades of grey involved it's not funny.
EDIT EDIT: Then I think of Lightning's latest outfit and I'd rather encourage my first paragraph to be read...
EDIT EDIT EDIT: A note wrt TV: I agree with the poster who said that Claire Danes rules in Homeland and character writers of all kinds should take notes from the show (although they don't HAVE to make her bipolar for added character definition). Just be sure to avoid analysing Jessica.
EDIT: Although, to be honest I don't have that much of a problem with revealing outfits as long as there's a decent amount of personality to the characters wearing them. But I'm a guy so maybe I don't know any better? Idk. There are so many shades of grey involved it's not funny.
EDIT EDIT: Then I think of Lightning's latest outfit and I'd rather encourage my first paragraph to be read...
EDIT EDIT EDIT: A note wrt TV: I agree with the poster who said that Claire Danes rules in Homeland and character writers of all kinds should take notes from the show (although they don't HAVE to make her bipolar for added character definition). Just be sure to avoid analysing Jessica.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
But you don't have a problem with objectifying Neil Armstrong as nothing more than a brave explorer. So it's not the objectification itself you have a problem with. It's the fact that it's a sexual object instead of some other type.
Crystalgate
694
Focusing on gaming, I think that the portrayal of females is gradually getting better. Compared to say ten years ago, things have improved considerable. The fact that there also are so much complaints about the existing problems gladdens me. There's still a lot of room for further improvements though and there's way to many people who think there's no problem here.
author=Crystalgate^ Again, because more women are in the community.
Focusing on gaming, I think that the portrayal of females is gradually getting better. Compared to say ten years ago, things have improved considerable. The fact that there also are so much complaints about the existing problems gladdens me. There's still a lot of room for further improvements though and there's way to many people who think there's no problem here.
--
I wouldn't say there are too many people who think there's no problem... as much as there people who don't want their fan service to go away.
That's perfectly normal when there's an overabundance of a certain group.
Like I said above, it's all about balance. Too many men = bad too many women = bad, unless that's the niche you're going for.
Gotta work for the money.
And as a note, men aren't going to write perfect women. Ever.
Super Close? Yes. Getting those super special details? Lol, no.
And that's coming from a man who loves writing women.
author=Crystalgate
Focusing on gaming, I think that the portrayal of females is gradually getting better. Compared to say ten years ago, things have improved considerable. The fact that there also are so much complaints about the existing problems gladdens me. There's still a lot of room for further improvements though and there's way to many people who think there's no problem here.
Well, thats the interesting thing about women and the media. This post isnt specifically targetted at u or anything in particular, but did u know that thats actually not quite true?
I was watching a documentary about women and the number of violent or hyper-sexualed women represented in the media (games included) is actually quite sharply on the rise.
The rates of depression in women has actually increased by 12x since 1990. Young women r also the fastest-growing market for plastic surgery.
This is an interesting study regarding rolling stones magazine covers: in the 2000s, there were 10x more sexualized women than men.
Now, im not blaming this all on the media, but u know its not healthy when teenage girls say theyre "disgusting" w/o makeup. Or when there're words such as "BB cream", "foundation", "primer", "lip stain" that didnt exist 5 or 10 years ago.
------
Personally, as a girl, i do not rly understand how the portrayal of women in video games has gotten better. :/
Yes, there're exceptions, but u do have to admit the ratio between positive portrayals and negative portrayals is unequal-- thats the whole reason why we're debating this topic.
@ LockeZ if could please read this study as well, here... <-- click look inside.
What is your opinion of this research?
Do you think that the findings of hyper sexualized women also extend to of females in games?
What is your opinion of this research?
Do you think that the findings of hyper sexualized women also extend to of females in games?
