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PLEASE HELP ME SOLVE A MYSTERY!
Posts
MoonCanvas
616
MoonCanvas
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CloseWell if it means anything, I'm playing his game right now and the window graphics still stick out like a sore thumb. They were customized by him recently but they somehow manage to still look default.
Window skin perspective; no gaming company would ever use default windows, and custom makers of games should hold the same standard. Again, his are officially custom now... A bit lacking though.
Some of the maps look good so far, thankfully.
Window skin perspective; no gaming company would ever use default windows, and custom makers of games should hold the same standard. Again, his are officially custom now... A bit lacking though.
Some of the maps look good so far, thankfully.
author=Raoul589
I don't care about an exact answer. I'm just observing that your poll doesn't refute my claims.
It was never meant to. I just referenced it here to give you an idea of what most people look for in a game as a deciding factor (and it not being download amounts). It was meant to help you understand what you need to work on to draw more people to your game.
author=Raoul589author=Liberty
Many games I've checked when it came to screens vs quality tended to be as I thought they would via checking out the screens. Not to say that there weren't some which didn't indicate the quality within, but most of the time they're a very good indication.
I bet everything you just said would be true of download count as well. Note that you said many, not all. The same would also be true for every other factor on your poll.
Well, yes, I said many because I meant that. Not all do, of course, but it's true of a lot of them. As I've said before I've not played all the games on the site so I'm only basing it on the games I've played vs their screenshots. I'd ultimately like to be able to say I've got the hard numbers but frankly, I don't think anyone here has.
Let me say this though - of the 250-500 game I have played, roughly 70-80% have been indicative of their screenshots. Hm, okay, more 65-70%. That's still quite a lot - enough for me to consider this a valid way of judging games.
And, well, you'd be surprised about your second point. Not all good looking game pages have great games - some people (like kentona) are nice enough to share their css or, if friends, do it for you. Not all games with pimpin' logos are great ones (since you can get anyone to whip one up for you, too).
Description... well, some people don't know how to sell their games via blurb, some do. It's hard to put a number on that one. Some people aren't originally English but have someone who proofreads their games (I do this on occasion), others get people to look over their description so they pass the 'test' but don't do so for their games (also done this for some).
Reviews can and have been biased before, so unless there's more than two or three then they're spotty at best. Add in the opinion factor and you have issues using that as a fair base.
But screenshots and videos are the best way to judge. Sure, someone can make up a map of high quality then leave the rest of the game as scrap, but usually they get called out rather fast on it and the damage is done to their name.
Downloads can and have been fudged and aren't really a clear indicator - unless the site gets an IP tracking amount that counts only one download per person... and that's not exactly a sure way to tell how many have played your game. (Liberty eyes her 'To Play' folder that's been filled, emptied, filled and emptied over the last five years. :I )
author=Raoul589You never outright said as such but you did say that you think of screenshots as shallow and non-indicative as to the quality of a game. Which is frankly ridiculous considering just what screenshots show you:author=Liberty
And if you say you don't look at a game's graphics before choosing to play or not you're flat out lying.
Where did I say this?
- the effort used by the creator to make a presentable map
- the systems used in the game
- writing ability via dialogue
- resource gathering and/or using skills
- familiarity with the program and what it can do
- design ability - ie: placement of tiles, colours, presentation, understanding of how to use the tiles properly
- the best parts of the game, what to look forward to
- some of the characters and story of the game
- any art resources used in the game like custom facesets (indicative of artistic ability, if any, or at least having an artist on board)
- genre of the game - is it a dark atmosphere or bright and bubbly?
- setting - modern vs medieval vs sci fi
And that's just off the top of my head. Screenshots tell you a lot about a game and are much more indicative of quality and the skills of the creator than a number that can be messed with by redownloading every day.
author=Raoul589I agree with you.
I do find it a little bit depressing that people would judge my game as amateurish just because I use the default window skin in a screenshot.
Sure, it's nice to have a pretty window skin, but it isn't a huge deal when the normal skin does a good job. As long as you're not using bright red text on blue-backed skin, I don't think people notice too much (unless you fancy it up. Then they do notice. Or a hideous skin that just makes your eyes bleed... >.<;)
It is nice to have that personal touch, though. (If you'd like one for your game I could whip one up for you no problem. I actually enjoy editing stuff like that a lot. Just let me know a colour scheme you might like and send me the default via PM and I'll fiddle around.)
author=Raoul589Actually, all those 'little' things you mentioned can be a lot of hard work when you actually get to it. I've done the whole 'swapping out graphic tiles' thing and... I had to scrap the project. It fell apart completely and as I was new back then I had no idea just why the water wasn't working when it was in the right spot or why certain tiles looked off...
It disgusts me how easy it would be to take the crappiest game and make the screenshots look good. I don't think my game is crappy, so I didn't concern myself too much. I see now this was a strategic mistake.
Even now, if I tried to change an all RTP project to, say, Mack or the Sci-Fi tiles I would scream because they are set up nothing like each other and all that hard work mapping would have to be done all over again. (Did this in a project with only two maps... spent three hours remapping the whole two to get them right. Probably didn't help that I wasn't used to using the Sci-Fi set though. :/ )
author=Raoul589
The honest truth is that I had assumed that people would be concentrating on the fact that that screenshot clearly demonstrates a scripted custom window system and a description of a non-generic, interesting spell and the fact that the player gets to choose these spells himself. Honestly, I (naively, apparently) thought that all these other things going on would be more important to a prospective player than whether I changed the default window skin. Each screenshot demonstrates a feature:
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31884/
Where is the player? Hang on, is he that mouse?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31882/
Oh look, unique spells. I wonder what it's like to control the blade? I wonder what 'blood pact' does?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP. Ugh, default window skin.')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/31881/
Hmm... the player is stuck. I wonder how that puzzle works?
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')
http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/images/29212/
Look, boss fights!
(Average response: 'Ugh, RTP.')
As I said, this was clearly a strategic mistake, but knowing it does not make it less depressing to me.
The thing is that while you're showing off some neat scripts, the background you use doesn't portray the whole screen as 'that great'. People take in the whole picture, and sometimes - especially with the release of the new systems that rely on scripting - people take for granted that such stuff can be done so they don't really notice it unless it's very well polished and presented. (Or in 2k/3, but that's becoming a past thing since plug-ins and Cherry.)
I'll go through them if you like, and add comments to let you know what's lacking and why people might not be responding to the custom systems as much as you think they should. Actually I'll put it here under these hide tags.
Screen 01
When I saw this my initial thought was "That's a decent cave. Oh, neat statue of a man. Where's the hero, though?" I didn't realise until this post that (I assume) the hero changes between man and mouse. This is because you've not given us any information and basically tell the audience nothing, so all they see is a map and some statues.
Now, you've also not introduced the hero - we have no connection to him so it's hard for us to notice that that statue is that hero. How to rectify this? Add a characters page (you can add pages to game profiles in the Manage Game/Page section) or use the description to introduce your hero to the audience. Show us his sprite. Make him stand out or look unique so that we can equate him to that statue.
OR you could add a blurb to the screenshot, which would really help in most of these pictures, btw. Nothing huge, just something like "Are you a Man or a Mouse?!" It draws attention to there being a chance that you can apparently shape-shift and that makes the image just that little bit more interesting than 'just a cave'.
Screen 02
Now, this one I was going to ask about when I first saw it but got distracted. Is it an input combo system where you press buttons to get it to works a la Sabin or Legend of Legaia? If so, that's pretty neat~
But people tend not to notice skills unless their attention is brought to them. I know it's sad, but most of the time if it ain't flashy, people aren't going to stop and ask/comment about text on a screen (or if they see a typo). You could add a blurb to this one to inform people just how the skills are activated. Even just saying it's like the battles from Legaia or Sabin's skills would drum up some comments beyond "Windurrrs".
It also doesn't help that it is just visually words on a window. There's nothing there to make it pop. Even icons could help with that or different coloured text or, sad to say, a different window skin (>.<; ).
Screen 03
With this one I didn't even realise he was trapped in. My initial thoughts was 'oh, decent forest map. Neat. Wonder what the shinies are?" Realising that he's now trapped, I imagine that they're warp points, perhaps, or switches.
As a map, while decent, it doesn't really do much to grab the player's attention. You can (and should) point out that the hero is trapped and unable to escape, adding a touch of mystery/drama. "How will he escape?!"
Frankly this is a kind of filler map. While it doesn't really show a feature or dialogue/interaction, it does show a sample of your mapping ability, which is good, because this is the map people will look to to determine if you are any good at mapping (vs the battle map, which is pretty bland) and allow them to make the conclusion that the room in the battle map is deliberate.
Screen 04
The last one is basically two bars and the bland field with an action system. Now, if the display bars were perhaps a bit prettier or spruced, drawing attention to them, and if the battle field was not quite so bland, people probably would have responded better because, sad to say, sex sells and eye-orgies sell better.
The thing is that it's been done before, prettier, and people remember that. They don't see your hard work there, but instead a - to them - subpar version of something they've already seen before. Which is a pity, because if that's all eventing/custom scripts and runs smoothly, it's a real achievement. (This is where gameplay vids can come in really, really handy when it comes to showcasing movement in action battle systems. It's really worth considering even if it's just a dummy enemy on a map to show off how smooth it runs and how it works - no spoilers~.)
You could add in that it's an action battle system or even ask a question "Will you be able to defeat le dragon king?!" Selling your screens is up to you. There are ways to do so beyond changing the content of the screenshot.
author=Raoul589author=Shoobinator
They are a great community and have a lot to offer.
The people who have posted in this thread don't constitute 'the community', they are merely some of the highest status members of the community. I care just as much about the opinions of someone who has 0 points under their avatar as someone who has 10,000. Ironically, I view status points in exactly the same way as everyone here claims to view download count. The same goes for whether you are a moderator. These things do not make your claims any more or any less factually accurate.
The funny thing is that the numbers under people's avatars indicate what that person has added to the community. Like, legitimately, the higher the number the more involved you have been with adding/contributing to the site - whether it be with games, reviews, articles, contests, featured games and the like. Indeed, the amount from games directly correlates to the quality of the game (ratings - the higher the star the better the number. It has as much change of going up with each review as it has of going down.)
So, it's not a status thing as much as it is a 'being part of the community, doing shit for it and doing it well' thang. Just thought I should clarify. (Also, post counts are not on these forums so popularity by post isn't a thing. Indeed, most of those you see with higher MS not only have contributed to this community, but have also been around it for a long time. (I've been around since 98, for instance, and some have been for longer.))
author=Raoul589
I address this to everyone on this thread: it is easy to consider your argument watertight when you're backed up by twenty people who are all jeering at your opponent. The true test comes when the situation is reversed. I am thoroughly sick of this topic, and it has made me quite unhappy. I'm now going to think carefully about whether or not I should withdraw from this community entirely, or whether I should drop back to the sidelines and just help people whoever deserves my help. This is not a threat, and I don't care whether or not you any of you care about my decision.
Whatever happened to Crocker's Rules?
That said, don't let one thread chase you away. It's just discussing theory, dude. Not like it's the be-all-end-all of everything. Give it 10 days or so and people will have forgotten the topic (which is kinda sad really).
@MoonCanvas: Ahem. FFEverygame had pretty bland and boring default-looking skins. FF7 with it's blue and white scheme (which is what the RMXP skins are based on, btw) is one of the biggest selling RPGs to date. So yes. Yes they would.
Raoul589
709
I am withdrawing from the thread precisely because I can no longer maintain Crocker's Rules, because the thread is making me unhappy. I am considering withdrawing from the community because of what has potentially been revealed about its culture through this thread. That is all, no more and no less.
MoonCanvas
616
Off topic: Well... I'll just say that I dislike the Final Fantasy series, a lot. That probably explains why I have the opinions I seem to have.
Back to topic, I think you should use the tint screen feature a bit more. I just can't stand the sunlight everything fascination.
Update; Raoul580's recent post made me chuckle. It's so silly.
Back to topic, I think you should use the tint screen feature a bit more. I just can't stand the sunlight everything fascination.
Update; Raoul580's recent post made me chuckle. It's so silly.
I see. Pity you can't just get over a little harsh rubbing like most others do but if you feel you must leave in order to keep yourself away from the nasty sub-culture of the RM world that you've apparently uncovered, then that must be.
You shall be missed, though you probably don't believe it. Pity, though. It's nice to have an intelligent argument from time to time. Welp, can't exactly make you stay if you don't want to. :/
Take care dude~
You shall be missed, though you probably don't believe it. Pity, though. It's nice to have an intelligent argument from time to time. Welp, can't exactly make you stay if you don't want to. :/
Take care dude~
Raoul, frankly it would be stupid if you left the community because of this thread that YOU YOURSELF CREATED. Basically what happened here is that you put a question out there, and now you're throwing a hissy fit because the responses didn't fall inside the acceptable bounds of what you were expecting when you asked it.
Just because people disagree with your findings doesn't necessarily mean anyone is wrong; it's just that their opinion of what different aspects of a game contribute to the whole is different, and that's a good thing. If everyone thought exactly the same way, the community would be boring as hell. It's because we have so many strong characters with their own opinions and approach to things that we have some of the unique and amazing projects that we do.
For what it's worth I think your game looks interesting; I tend not to be the biggest fan of games with adventure battle systems because in my opinion they're rarely done well enough with the engine to be worth having, but that's just me and you might just be the diamond that proves me wrong. I'd try your game just to see if it is.
Your screenshots are okay, but none of them really pop out at me as something I'd want to play the game specifically for (with the exception of the type of battle system you have, which isn't really represented well in the screenshots)
Back to your original point, though, I don't think downloads are necessarily a 100% accurate indication of how enjoyable a game will be. I think reviews are a better benchmark, however I would stress that actually reading the content will give a better idea than just looking at the ratings, as I agree that the rating system isn't that good an indicator either.
At the end of the day, a number of things go into what makes a game good or worth downloading, and I think the only real, dependable way to get more downloads is to convince as many people as possible that their criteria for what makes a game worth downloading is met by your game.
Just because people disagree with your findings doesn't necessarily mean anyone is wrong; it's just that their opinion of what different aspects of a game contribute to the whole is different, and that's a good thing. If everyone thought exactly the same way, the community would be boring as hell. It's because we have so many strong characters with their own opinions and approach to things that we have some of the unique and amazing projects that we do.
For what it's worth I think your game looks interesting; I tend not to be the biggest fan of games with adventure battle systems because in my opinion they're rarely done well enough with the engine to be worth having, but that's just me and you might just be the diamond that proves me wrong. I'd try your game just to see if it is.
Your screenshots are okay, but none of them really pop out at me as something I'd want to play the game specifically for (with the exception of the type of battle system you have, which isn't really represented well in the screenshots)
Back to your original point, though, I don't think downloads are necessarily a 100% accurate indication of how enjoyable a game will be. I think reviews are a better benchmark, however I would stress that actually reading the content will give a better idea than just looking at the ratings, as I agree that the rating system isn't that good an indicator either.
At the end of the day, a number of things go into what makes a game good or worth downloading, and I think the only real, dependable way to get more downloads is to convince as many people as possible that their criteria for what makes a game worth downloading is met by your game.
TheNecromancer
3160
this has been busy, but now it's over i guess? oh well. i realized i don't really care about convincing him of anything. i'll have to read through it tonight and probably have a laugh :D
Good lord, why does this have four pages.
Probably because he couldn't refute anything you said on a technical basis.
I read the first page and a half before my brain started to break down from all the misplaced assumptions from BOTH sides of the argument. This thread is like one giant communication failure.
A more meaningful post may be coming; it all depends if I can get through the rest with my sanity in-tact. >_<
from kentona
Why was he ignoring me?
Probably because he couldn't refute anything you said on a technical basis.
I read the first page and a half before my brain started to break down from all the misplaced assumptions from BOTH sides of the argument. This thread is like one giant communication failure.
A more meaningful post may be coming; it all depends if I can get through the rest with my sanity in-tact. >_<
...okay. Backing up to the OP, the very first question in this thread was "Why is my game not getting many downloads?" For the most part, that's been answered, but the thread derailed and spiraled into a chasm after that, so I'm gonna try to summarize the relevant points.
The game has few downloads because it is presented badly.
That's all this adds up to. Everything else that's been said is irrelevant. The only important post in the entire thread is the one kentona made on page 2 analyzing the game page and its many faults.
Many other subjects sprung up in the course of the debate, most of which pertain to the value of various aspects of presentation. All I can add is that EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT. If you want your game to succeed, you need to maximize download chances in every way you feasibly can. If you can't take the time to do that, then you'll just be stuck lamenting your low numbers.
The game has few downloads because it is presented badly.
That's all this adds up to. Everything else that's been said is irrelevant. The only important post in the entire thread is the one kentona made on page 2 analyzing the game page and its many faults.
Many other subjects sprung up in the course of the debate, most of which pertain to the value of various aspects of presentation. All I can add is that EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT. If you want your game to succeed, you need to maximize download chances in every way you feasibly can. If you can't take the time to do that, then you'll just be stuck lamenting your low numbers.
TheNecromancer
3160
i like how he admits that he doesn't really like making games and he's doing it for our benefit, yet when we tell him what we want/look for he gets all pissy and defensive xD (that's right, i'm done speaking directly to him. he's already quit on us)
i also get the sense that he wants more downloads and thinks that the experience of the game doesn't have a direct result on this. to show that i'm not pulling hidden meaning out of my ass, i say that because of what was said here
this suggests that every person will download the game without hearing anything about it(like how it was memorable and fun), because the experience of the game is only revealed to a person AFTER they download it themselves. to me this puts even more importance on the presentation of the game/gamepage. you need to hook the player before they download it, right? because there is no other way for them to know that it's a quality game.
apparently he doesn't know about things like hype and word of mouth. if people play it, and it's very memorable and fun, they will want others to share in its greatness. they will shout it from the rooftops that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS GAME! which would in turn bring in more downloads and when it reaches someone with a big name website they will post an article that spreads the word even greater.
that is exactly what happened with Wither. i never actually played a game, before or since then, that i was excited to tell other people about. i recommended the shit out of that game and at the time it had very low downloads, a plain CSS, and a small description. the screens just look like pokemon, nothing special unless you happen to love the style.
hero's realm was in a big name printed magazine, right? gamepro or something?
companies don't spend millions on advertising because it doesn't work.
one can't just plop a game down in a tiny corner of the internet, among a pile of similar looking games, and expect everyone to realize how awesome it is based on lackluster information. not to mention doing this while admitting that one has not even put effort into making it look better because it's already awesome enough. one is god's gift to us. halleluiah
btw, alterego, i appreciate what you said :) the respect goes both ways, bud.
i also get the sense that he wants more downloads and thinks that the experience of the game doesn't have a direct result on this. to show that i'm not pulling hidden meaning out of my ass, i say that because of what was said here
Not one of the points in your first post would be fixed merely by making my game more 'memorable and fun', (or by being more humble), since they are all considerations that precede the point at which a prospective player has ever had the chance to play my game (because they haven't downloaded it yet - which is the whole point).
this suggests that every person will download the game without hearing anything about it(like how it was memorable and fun), because the experience of the game is only revealed to a person AFTER they download it themselves. to me this puts even more importance on the presentation of the game/gamepage. you need to hook the player before they download it, right? because there is no other way for them to know that it's a quality game.
apparently he doesn't know about things like hype and word of mouth. if people play it, and it's very memorable and fun, they will want others to share in its greatness. they will shout it from the rooftops that YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS GAME! which would in turn bring in more downloads and when it reaches someone with a big name website they will post an article that spreads the word even greater.
that is exactly what happened with Wither. i never actually played a game, before or since then, that i was excited to tell other people about. i recommended the shit out of that game and at the time it had very low downloads, a plain CSS, and a small description. the screens just look like pokemon, nothing special unless you happen to love the style.
hero's realm was in a big name printed magazine, right? gamepro or something?
companies don't spend millions on advertising because it doesn't work.
one can't just plop a game down in a tiny corner of the internet, among a pile of similar looking games, and expect everyone to realize how awesome it is based on lackluster information. not to mention doing this while admitting that one has not even put effort into making it look better because it's already awesome enough. one is god's gift to us. halleluiah
btw, alterego, i appreciate what you said :) the respect goes both ways, bud.
I think the point's been made, the horse beaten, killed, resurrected as a zombie, beaten again, shot in the head and buried in a silver coffin. The dude has all the information he needs at this point, and any further attempt to assist is probably gonna be more self-indulgent than helpful..?
Then again, so was the horse joke...
Then again, so was the horse joke...
TheNecromancer
3160
im not trying to be helpful or make a point. this is a discussion i was involved in and i haven't been able to post much during the last 2 days. i only just read the last 2 pages now. the original discussion may have fizzled but i don't see why we can't still analyze what was said and contemplate the implications of it all. as long as there are no personal insults or mud slinging.
those were my final thoughts, anyways.
posting a 'stop talking about this' comment is just like posting a negative comment on someones game just to be a dick. if you don't like the topic/discussion, click the back button and ignore it. (that sentiment is not directed solely at you slashphoenix, but it kinda applies)
those were my final thoughts, anyways.
posting a 'stop talking about this' comment is just like posting a negative comment on someones game just to be a dick. if you don't like the topic/discussion, click the back button and ignore it. (that sentiment is not directed solely at you slashphoenix, but it kinda applies)
MoonCanvas
616
I've found a very interesting trend. Game developers who leave smiley faces in response to a good review of their own game, tend to become defensive and attack those who criticize their work.
Subject A: sbethune81
(the smiley face fault and attack in question on the same page)http://rpgmaker.net/games/3694/reviews/2115/
Subject B: Raoul589
(the smiley face fault)http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/reviews/1907/
(the attack in question)basically all his posts
Now before anyone says otherwise... I have checked out other reviews for different developers, and the only 2 developers to ever attack people for showing criticism were the same 2 only guys to ever leave a smiley face on their game's review.
Subject A: sbethune81
(the smiley face fault and attack in question on the same page)http://rpgmaker.net/games/3694/reviews/2115/
Subject B: Raoul589
(the smiley face fault)http://rpgmaker.net/games/4263/reviews/1907/
(the attack in question)basically all his posts
Now before anyone says otherwise... I have checked out other reviews for different developers, and the only 2 developers to ever attack people for showing criticism were the same 2 only guys to ever leave a smiley face on their game's review.
On a serious note, I think most of us should read "How To Win Friends And Influence People" as it has good advice about getting the most out of others. My favourite two points are:
-> Do not criticize people
-> Do not ask for criticism
-> Do not criticize people
-> Do not ask for criticism
author=Yellow Magic
On a serious note, I think most of us should read "How To Read Friends And Influence People" as it has good advice about getting the most out of others. My favourite two points are:
-> Do not criticize people
-> Do not ask for criticism
You know, I've seen that book on one of our bookshelves somewhere and I've never gotten around to reading it. After looking at the Wikipedia, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea at all for anyone who's posting things for the public eye. Or anyone on the internet, really.
EDIT: Anyway, I'm all about not mudslinging, and it makes more sense to talk about useful stuff like how to improve visibility. No point in just insulting Raoul since I think we've probably scared him off for a while anyway.
