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WHEN TO DECIDE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?
Posts
ubon
66
ubon
View playlists
Closeand I never got the feeling that I was calling his game a disorganized mess. that last line has some big words in it, but I'm basically just saying that it'll be in development forever and, if it does come out, will be a bit top-heavy.
the rest is me being annoyed at someone coming in, asking for help, then bailing when the advice people are giving is more difficult than he expected. his stated goal in the OP doesn't have anything to do with "revamping" -- he's asking what the best way to proceed is, and whether making cuts in his content is absolutely necessary. we've been dropping answers to both of these left and right, before he decided he didn't like how they sounded.
I have an interest in people finishing the things they work on within their lifetime
occasionally a bro feels as if he is taken for granted
do what you like in response but the facts do not change
e:
this, this, this! people here have some really weird metrics about what makes a game good.
you guys should check out something like nidhogg sometime. incredibly simple at the surface, but a crazy amount of complexity comes out of how it's played. an excellent example of the benefits of clarity in game design.
e2: video
the rest is me being annoyed at someone coming in, asking for help, then bailing when the advice people are giving is more difficult than he expected. his stated goal in the OP doesn't have anything to do with "revamping" -- he's asking what the best way to proceed is, and whether making cuts in his content is absolutely necessary. we've been dropping answers to both of these left and right, before he decided he didn't like how they sounded.
I have an interest in people finishing the things they work on within their lifetime
occasionally a bro feels as if he is taken for granted
do what you like in response but the facts do not change
e:
author=slashphoenix
That's what I'm saying though - the time it took to produce isn't a reasonable measure of quality, and the time it takes to consume isn't either.
this, this, this! people here have some really weird metrics about what makes a game good.
you guys should check out something like nidhogg sometime. incredibly simple at the surface, but a crazy amount of complexity comes out of how it's played. an excellent example of the benefits of clarity in game design.
e2: video
I like two categories of games, games that help me waste my time (epics don't necessarily have to be good, it's about the experience, for the same reason people watch the entire Ring Cycle in one sitting (what, you haven't?)) and short sweet very very deep pieces that make me laugh/cry/etc.
My favorite short film was Not One Less (a Chinese schoolteacher goes out of her way to pick up a stray student, and there is all this skillful build before the dramatic and super-sappy moment where she finds him) and I might consider watching some of these (cinematic) long films, regardless of their quality.
Likewise, the shortest games I've played that made a decent impression on me were Clock of Atonement (took longer than it should, since I had trouble figuring it out), Maranda, and With His Father's Sword. I've actually played a few of the Tales stories, which run through three or more worlds, and some of the Star Ocean games too.
All I'm saying, is, it's a mistake to equate "short" with "compact." The game must be just as good quality and as meaningful as something 3x its length, or you've got a shallow story. (Maranda and With His Father's Sword actually were, they were 30 min or so each, and I swore I was watching a full-length film)
My favorite short film was Not One Less (a Chinese schoolteacher goes out of her way to pick up a stray student, and there is all this skillful build before the dramatic and super-sappy moment where she finds him) and I might consider watching some of these (cinematic) long films, regardless of their quality.
Likewise, the shortest games I've played that made a decent impression on me were Clock of Atonement (took longer than it should, since I had trouble figuring it out), Maranda, and With His Father's Sword. I've actually played a few of the Tales stories, which run through three or more worlds, and some of the Star Ocean games too.
All I'm saying, is, it's a mistake to equate "short" with "compact." The game must be just as good quality and as meaningful as something 3x its length, or you've got a shallow story. (Maranda and With His Father's Sword actually were, they were 30 min or so each, and I swore I was watching a full-length film)
ubon
66
we're all already focusing on making the game as good as it can be
you seem to agree with us that length, whether of the gameplay or the game's production, does not necessarily correlate to quality -- you just gotta understand that this lack of a coorrelation goes both ways
just as making a game on a timeline will not automatically make it worth the while, pouring five years into a project is meaningless if you don't put them to good use
you seem to agree with us that length, whether of the gameplay or the game's production, does not necessarily correlate to quality -- you just gotta understand that this lack of a coorrelation goes both ways
just as making a game on a timeline will not automatically make it worth the while, pouring five years into a project is meaningless if you don't put them to good use
Oh, I think I do.
My first game. (10 years, of wasted effort)
The game was deleted, but the download link has a backdoor to the original project (at least for me).
My first game was supposed to be a normal length comedy game (I failed). My current game was an epic, for the very reason that it would encourage me to work harder. I made it in under half the time, even with all the added features.
My next project would be to make an average length game in a year or less (still, no way I could do one month, that's crazy).
My first game. (10 years, of wasted effort)
The game was deleted, but the download link has a backdoor to the original project (at least for me).
author=http://rpgmaker.net/games/1071/reviews/703/
This 'game' needs to be buried, burned, have something scary and ugly built on top of it, and sent to hell.
My first game was supposed to be a normal length comedy game (I failed). My current game was an epic, for the very reason that it would encourage me to work harder. I made it in under half the time, even with all the added features.
My next project would be to make an average length game in a year or less (still, no way I could do one month, that's crazy).
Shoobinator
662
author=Corfaisus
What became of that bright-eyed, young, promising developer that took critique from the screenshot thread and bettered his work significantly near instantly? Where did he go?
Not to toot my own horn, but I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to either, maybe me? lol I did get a lot of great feedback from a thread of mine a while back.
ubon
66
I think he was talking to the guy who started the thread? that post's from a whole page ago, anyway.
Xenomic
1752
author=Corfaisus
What became of that bright-eyed, young, promising developer that took critique from the screenshot thread and bettered his work significantly near instantly? Where did he go?
Um...I'm assuming you're talking to me here. I still take criticism and feedback and implement them whenever they may see fit. But a lot of what you suggested, and no offense intended or anything, but they're not conducive to what anything that I'm trying to achieve really. Sure, I could cut back on the characters to 10, but that pretty much kills a lot of the gameplay for the game there, as well as the story. No, I'm not going to change the story just to revolve around gameplay when I already have the story set in stone. Nor am I going to change the story to revolve around gameplay. That, and telling someone to just outright scrap their game essentially and start fresh when there's really no reason to do so seems a bit excessive no? I mean, I can understand if the game was a complete and total unsalvageable mess, but my game isn't THAT much of a mess for one, and for another...
"So, where should one draw the line on what they do in making a game? Should they work on one thing only until they feel it's done, and then move onto the next part? Or should they split up the work?"
This is kinda what the topic was about. It wasn't about cutting things out or adding a bunch of stuff that didn't fit in with the game I thought. Though it seems everyone else thought differently or something? @_@;;
Again, it was more of a "Should I work more on this one thing (i.e. the database, mapping, spritesheets, etc.), or should I work a little on the database, a little on the mapping, etc.?" sorta deal. How it escalated into this is beyond me, and was not my intentions at all. Again, your advice is sound and all, but when the project doesn't necessarily NEED it and is doing just fine with what it's got...I don't know man. x_x;
And as Locke already did point out...
author=LockeZ
I never got the feeling that Xenomic's game was a huge disorganized mess of unstoppable feature creep from this thread, just that he's trying to decide to what extent it's worth revamping the aspects of the game that are unplayably bad, because he has several.
Personally I think it's worth deciding what's unplayably bad and what's just bad
The screenshot thread is an example of this right here. I posted screenshots, was trying to decide how much they needed revamped, and revamped what I saw needed revamp based on feedback as well as my own interpretation. I've talked to Locke a lot about this game for the past few months, and he's heard some really, REALLY terrible ideas from me (both from what's in the game already and from what I was thinking of adding into the game). Thanks to quite a bit of his feedback, several parts that were pretty bad or worse got fixed up, and are now better. But not always did I take his advice in EVERYTHING since not everything suggested needed to be done when it was generally fine to begin with or didn't need anything done to it.
My goodness, I hate typing up walls of text. How did we come to this now? @_@
ubon
66
I don't know, but it still reads to me as "it wasn't the advice I wanted to hear so it isn't valid"
I think the fact that you describe so many aspects of this game as "set in stone" is linked pretty strongly to the reasons you're finding it difficult to make decisive progress
but I think it's pretty obvious that I've mistaken both you and this topic for things they're not.
I think the fact that you describe so many aspects of this game as "set in stone" is linked pretty strongly to the reasons you're finding it difficult to make decisive progress
but I think it's pretty obvious that I've mistaken both you and this topic for things they're not.
Shoobinator
662
author=mawk
I think he was talking to the guy who started the thread? that post's from a whole page ago, anyway.
Oh okay, don't mind me, then :P
ubon
66
I don't mind you at all! you're probably the best thing that's happened to this topic recently.
Xenomic
1752
The only decisive thing I was really asking for was what I already stated in the previous post with the whole "Work on one thing or split up work". I wouldn't think that's due to setting anything in stone, but more along the lines of working overall. >_<;
ubon
66
I think it was outkast who once said
don't pull the thang out unless you plan to bang
and don't even bang unless you plan to hit something
don't pull the thang out unless you plan to bang
and don't even bang unless you plan to hit something
author=mawkb-b-but I am the exception to the rules! No really! I am!!
can't say I'm surprised, RM being RM. everyone thinks they're the single crazy exception to the rules, and that the people who tell them otherwise are just the naysayers that prove they're the protagonist of their own little story.
Anywho, to those of you who somehow equate time to produce == quality, I have made several well-received games in short time frames. Generica was made in 10 days start to finish. The core game of Hellion was made in 17 days (and then I sat on it for 2 years before trudging through the tedium to complete it). I can shit out a half-decent Mario level in 30 mins. Village Brave was made in a month. The only games that I've made that weren't (largely) made in a short burst of time that were well-received were Hero's Realm and Mario vs the Moon Base.
balh blah blah time to produce is a very bad metric to judge a game's quality.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I don't think anyone's disagreeing with that, except maybe Bulma who can't express complete consistent thoughts but at least knows when to backpedal
Shoobinator
662
author=mawk
I don't mind you at all! you're probably the best thing that's happened to this topic recently.
:D
It's not that my thoughts are inconsistent, Locke. I met someone in camp once that every argument, he's say "to a certain extent." Yeah, I think you guys are both right. To a certain extent.
I don't like dogmatic extremes, everything is shades of black and white. Like Mawk's body.
I don't like dogmatic extremes, everything is shades of black and white. Like Mawk's body.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
The thing is, if someone is passionate about their work, only they can decide when to walk away. We could all tell anyone that what they've got is enough or will never be enough, but that is our opinion of their work. If the question is simply "when do I call it quits", the answer is "whenever you feel like it is acceptable to do so." If the question is "how do I proceed", the answer is "whatever calls to you at that moment." Only by delving into what the game is made up of and critiquing that does this topic stand a chance at proper discussion.
No one can tell you exactly how to make your game, lest it becomes theirs as well. Instead, understanding efficiency and how you work as an individual (or in a group if that is the case) is key in answering this question, which results in it being one that only the inquirer can truly answer.
For the sake of this topic, however, I'll welcome myself to drop my own past methods and how I'm attempting to approach it now.
The problem with this is that you're going to be making it up as you go along, and this will likely result in many revisions before your overall product is refined to the point of being moderately acceptable.
A method I've adopted while working on Tales from Zilmurik 2013 is one that I'm sure many people already practice.
Optional content should always be believable in the world that it exists in and should never seem like more of a chore than its worth. This should also be handled carefully to fill in the valleys of the storyline to ensure the player doesn't lose interest during the game's slower parts, and should only be thrown in to areas that are already understood and established enough to warrant throwing in additional content. What I mean by this is that if an area already has enough action taking place, throwing in a sidequest will most likely go unnoticed, which would hurt the game if any of the valleys seem to drag on longer as a result of not having this content to brighten it up a bit.
No one can tell you exactly how to make your game, lest it becomes theirs as well. Instead, understanding efficiency and how you work as an individual (or in a group if that is the case) is key in answering this question, which results in it being one that only the inquirer can truly answer.
For the sake of this topic, however, I'll welcome myself to drop my own past methods and how I'm attempting to approach it now.
Old Method
1. Start with an interesting idea and starter area and decide what role your main hero is going to play. Use this as a launching pad for the rest of the game.
2. Understand how you want the game to end (you could just make a rough draft of the entire final dungeon/scenes now.)
3. Filler
4. Refine said filler to instill within it a coherent storyline.
5. Playtest at each small step made, such as multiple times per cutscene and during action sequences in dungeons. This is the time to squash all of those pesky "too obvious to miss" bugs.
The problem with this is that you're going to be making it up as you go along, and this will likely result in many revisions before your overall product is refined to the point of being moderately acceptable.
A method I've adopted while working on Tales from Zilmurik 2013 is one that I'm sure many people already practice.
Current Method
1. Brainstorm important character personalities/origins/aspirations and locations that are key to the main plot. Also, brainstorm some/most of the main plot.
2. Gather resources necessary to allow work to start on the more graphic and sound oriented sections of the game.
3. Start mapping out towns, field areas, and then dungeons with a good idea in mind of what exactly you're going to need these areas to look and function like to allow you to include the scenes that take place here later. Once these are created, begin working on the world map.
4. Understanding how your characters are to function in combat, begin coming up with ideas for monsters/skills/items and implement an organized rough draft list of these items in the database. Tweak these as is necessary to balance them out during playtesting to ensure that nothing is too strong or too weak for when it becomes relevant.
5. With all of this created, begin the process of eventing out all scenes and important battles that will take place throughout the entirety of the game. Throw in a healthy amount of treasures to be found in less-than-necessary stretches of towns/dungeons to reward the player.
This plenty much wraps it up as you'll be doing step 5 until the game is completed. If you feel yourself jumping toward the next step before finishing the ones that come before, stop and finish those first. If you have any doubts about the worth of your ideas, continue brainstorming until all doubt is removed.
Optional content should always be believable in the world that it exists in and should never seem like more of a chore than its worth. This should also be handled carefully to fill in the valleys of the storyline to ensure the player doesn't lose interest during the game's slower parts, and should only be thrown in to areas that are already understood and established enough to warrant throwing in additional content. What I mean by this is that if an area already has enough action taking place, throwing in a sidequest will most likely go unnoticed, which would hurt the game if any of the valleys seem to drag on longer as a result of not having this content to brighten it up a bit.
This thread actually convinced me to try to put my game to bed. Along with the fact that the game allows you to challenge God.
You know what other game has such a challenge? Dragon Quest 7. (75-90 hours, more than 200 if you do the sidequests and max your characters)
Hell, there is a bonus item if you can beat my game in one sitting (no saves). I'm not entirely sure it can be done without wrecking your body and your computer.
You know what other game has such a challenge? Dragon Quest 7. (75-90 hours, more than 200 if you do the sidequests and max your characters)
Hell, there is a bonus item if you can beat my game in one sitting (no saves). I'm not entirely sure it can be done without wrecking your body and your computer.
Xenomic
1752
Incidentally, that's almost what I do while making my game in a way. On NORMAL occasions (right now isn't a normal occasion), I'd be mapping out the dungeon first, then when the map was done, I'd set up the storyline events, then set up the monsters, and then playtest the area just made. Granted, even with the playtesting sometimes I miss the obvious bugs (how, I don't know...it's a mystery even to me). It just seems easier to do it that way. ^^;
I haven't even begun to put in sidequests in my game yet, as I'm waiting until I actually finish the entire storyline and have done everything for it that I can. That, and it allows me to see how much space I have in my game for switches and whatnot to use for said sidequests (and I also haven't really brainstormed that much on the sidequests themselves). I did want to make them be a way to get EXP and other things (since 2K3's EXP system curve is terrible. I'm still having issues figuring out a sound EXP curve...). x_x;;
I haven't even begun to put in sidequests in my game yet, as I'm waiting until I actually finish the entire storyline and have done everything for it that I can. That, and it allows me to see how much space I have in my game for switches and whatnot to use for said sidequests (and I also haven't really brainstormed that much on the sidequests themselves). I did want to make them be a way to get EXP and other things (since 2K3's EXP system curve is terrible. I'm still having issues figuring out a sound EXP curve...). x_x;;
