~TENSION~

Posts

Pages: first 12 next last
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Gameplay tension is creating a state where the player has multiple objectives and can't do them all at once. It's what makes the player feel like he or she has meaningful choices to make.

For example, I have two magic spells here:
Thunderbolt - Deals 80 lightning damage. Makes the enemy take double lightning damage next round.
Engulf - Gradually deals 150 fire damage over the next four rounds.

You can immediately see the ~tension~ there. The choice is between immediate damage and gradual damage. Further, the situation changes as the battle goes on - the equation is different on the first round of battle than it is when Engulf wears off while the enemy is inflicted with debuff from Thunderbolt. Your choice is going to depend on the enemy's HP, and on how badly you need to heal, and what the enemy's strategy is, and what your party members are doing, and, if the game is designed well, probably a few dozen other factors.

There are a few major types of ~tension~ that work well, and I think these are probably the two biggest ones:
Short term vs. long term objectives
Examples:
- Gradual damage vs. immediate damage
- Dealing damage vs. inflicting debuffs
- Casting protective buffs vs. healing after taking damage
- Choosing a stat that improves your performance vs. one that you will need to wear a certain piece of equipment later
- Killing an enemy vs. trying to steal from it
- Killing an enemy vs. gathering information (like elemental weaknesses)
- Winning fast vs. conserving items/MP/resources
- Upgrading equipment vs. saving money
- Using a class that has good abilities vs. using a class that can eventually learn great abilities

Offense vs. defense
Examples:
- Healing spells vs. damage spells
- Killing an enemy to keep it from dealing damage vs. healing the damage it deals
- Using crippling status effects vs. ignoring them
- Choosing characters, classes, equipment or spells to use in battle
- Choosing characters, classes, equipment or spells to hire/buy/learn in the first place

Of course, simply having two options listed in the menu for the player to choose between doesn't create much tension. At least not good tension. You have to make them both tempting. You have to make them both seem like good ideas, in their own way. You have to make the player feel like neither just is the obvious winner. And then you have to create situations where one is better, and situations where the other is better - even though it seemed, to some extent, like they were both good - so that the choice actually matters.

Of course, the player becomes trained over the course of the game (sometimes very quickly) to recognize the patterns in your design and what factors cause one option to work better than the other. This decreases the level of tension, so the stakes have to be increased or the gameplay has to change to get that lovely feeling of ~tension~ back into your game that makes the player feel like he's actually doing something.

I wonder if people have examples of sets of skills or systems that work in tandem to create tension that they think worked really well. Or systems that they think worked very poorly and failed to create tension, and want ideas of how to improve. For example, choices between an ensured outcome and a possible better outcome - like an attack with half hitrate but double damage - never seem to create any degree of tension that I care about. I'd call that entire methodology a failure at creating tension. Though I suppose compulsive gamblers might disagree with me, or even have insights of how to improve that kind of choice.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
This is always an interesting design challenge and one I've had to address recently in Lily.

Previously, I had added an item type called a Relic, which basically provided you with passive bonuses in battle. For example, one relic might grant a shield when your HP gets low while another boosts your attack when you are weakened. You could collect many relics as you played the game. These ended up being pretty boring in battle, however. You had to hope the relic activated when you wanted and in the end they didn't affect the player's decision-making process much.

I really wanted the player to have interesting choices in passive benefits that involved weighing risks and rewards. I replaced relics with Souls. Souls grant passive bonuses such as giving the player counterattacks or consuming MP every turn to increase damage output. These bonuses grow stronger every turn (up to a max of 3 Power). Only one Soul can be active at a time. The player can switch between them during their turn without wasting their action; however, this resets Soul Power back to 1. The player must choose between switching to a possibly more beneficial soul at the risk of being slightly weaker for a couple of turns.

For example, the Town Guard class starts with two souls:
Brutal Soul: All attacks inflict bleed (deals damage over time). Soul Power increases the length of bleeding.
Cautious Soul: Generate Shield Points every turn. More Soul Power generates more Shield Points.

This is a pretty obvious dichotomy: Offense or Defense? Generating shield every turn is a very safe way to fight, but increasing your damage output with Bleeding attacks will kill enemies faster and in some cases might prevent more damage. As the game goes on you can equip up to 4 souls, providing even more options.

I am curious to know what people think of the souls idea - so far it seems to add a lot of dynamic possibility to battle, but I need to experiment with it more.

---

As a sidenote, I think enemy randomness can be used to effectively add to this tension. If the enemy has two attacks - both equally powerful but essentially different (say a direct attack and a slow but powerful poison) - and the player knows this, it's the player's job to be prepared for either inevitability. This is not the same as a boss having a small chance to OHKO your party, because the player can avoid dying to either possible attack if they've assessed things properly before it's too late. If the player gets into a situation where one attack will kill them and the other won't, they've already screwed up - and now they just have to hope the enemy screws up too.

(Although, I do wonder how this would "feel". If a player lost in that situation, would they feel like it was their fault and justified, or that they got screwed by the computer? How can we adjust this?)
It's key to not simply have choices, but produce a sense of urgency to these choices. ATB puts the fire under you (especially if you have faster ATB cranked up to eleven), but the urgency tends to make you rush through decisions, producing the heavy Attack battles that use little in the way of spells or strategy.

You have to produce conditions where one would be more challenging (but also more rewarding) than another. Suppose you have an enemy that you have to beat in a certain way or it flees, taking an enormous amount of gold and exp. You can just ignore this and blast all monsters with nuke-style all enemy spells.

In another case, the saving resources vs ending battle quickly becomes more complicated when you have both physical elements and elemental elements. Some enemies might be physical weak making spells actually less efficient that physical attacks, and thus not a quick battle or a resource saver. On the other hand, you could have physical immune heavy hitters that are vulnerable to certain elements meaning the longer you spend in battle the more resources you just used.

And then there's special battle conditions (think FFXII and its magnetic bosses, hp or mp drain, or boss buffs). These add additional tension by bringing the choice to its head. The boss isn't really playing fair, and is about to kill you. Quick, decide!
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
ATB is just fake tension to me. When you're waiting for it, it's just dragging out the battle, and when you're working against it, you don't necessarily have time to make the best choices.

I don't really get the tension LockeZ is talking about, either. Do players really agonize over such things? Maybe it's just me since my preferences differ drastically from most RPG fans, but the only type of tension I've ever enjoyed comes from sticky situations in turn-based roguelikes. Y'know, where making the wrong move can easily mean instant game over.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, ATB is garbage; I don't think anyone really wants their success or failure in a game to be based on how fast they can navigate a menu. It's also not the kind of tension I'm talking about, in any case.

What I am talking about isn't "a feeling of pressure", it's "having multiple options". It's not the player that's under tension, it's the choices themselves. They have tension against each-other in a way that makes them both feel legit.

Here is an example of two skills with zero tension:

Fire Blade: Deals 100 fire damage. Costs no MP.
Fire Blade II: Deals 300 fire damage. Costs no MP.

Obviously the first skill there is doing absolutely nothing to put tension on the second one. Nothing it does makes it seem like it might be the right choice. The result is that the player feels like he doesn't have a choice at all. He just has the second skill, effectively.

This example has slightly more tension:

Fire Blade: Deals 100 fire damage. Costs no MP.
Fire Blade II: Deals 300 fire damage. Costs 100 MP.

The addition of an MP cost for the second skill creates a level of tension, making the player feel like there are pros and cons to both choices. He must decide between two goals - deal damage or conserve MP. In a good game, the correct choice will vary based on the situation. In a game where MP restoration were extremely simple, though, the second choice would almost always be the best one; there'd still be no tension.

This example has even more tension:

Fire Blade: Deals 100 damage and has a 25% chance to inflict Def Down. Costs no MP.
Fire Blade II: Deals 300 damage. Costs 100 MP.

Now there are two layers of tension. The first skill accomplishes two goals while the second only accomplishes one, so they are much closer to both feeling useful. In some situations, the player might care more about both MP conservation and long-term damage than about short-term damage, making the first skill the better choice. Or in other situations the player might only care about the first skill because it does both things - once he inflicts Def Down he'll be more likely to switch to the second skill. In still other situations he'll just use the second skill regardless. The skills pull at each-other, making neither one obviously better, and thus giving the player an actual choice of how to proceed.

Another way to describe "tension" is "balance". But it's a specific kind of balance.
Trihan
"It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey...stuff."
3359
Good topic and compelling points, LockeZ.

On a related note, what did you actually think of my spellcrafting system? You posted in my topic saying I didn't need any ideas or advice, but you never actually said what you thought of the ideas themselves.

(to jog your memory, basically spells in Tundra will be completely editable by the player; the spellcasters have a number of available spell slots and the player decides what they do. They're essentially creating their own tension: do you have a bunch of simple, low-MP spells? A few small ones and one massive one with a huge MP cost? Several high-cost spells?)
Isrieri
"My father told me this would happen."
6155
I think your abilities only create as much "tension" as the enemies you're pitted against. Halibabica rose a pretty good point in that a lot of what makes your spell options so significant is the pressure you feel from the enemies you're fighting. In my opinion it all boils down to: "How can I take these guys out as efficiently as possible?"

In some situations you might want to pull for that Thunderbolt spell to take out the big tank that's going to sweep your whole party with the multi-targeting attack. But you also want to take out the healer so he doesn't keep healing everybody, who is thankfully weak to fire. So maybe then you'd want to use Engulf on him. But there's also an enemy in the battle who creates a global effect of minimizing any fire damage dealt, but is weak to electricity. NOW WHAT?!

Now that example might be overkill but my point is that if you want to successfully create tension between skills and have each possess a usefulness of it's own, you largely have to put the player on the defensive a lot. Have each enemy tailored to have a specific strength and weakness, so that if encountered alone they're cake as long as you know how to deal with them. But mix them with others and then their abilities start to play off one another such that you can't just spam weaknesses or button mash to get through it. To make abilities useful you have to give them usefulness beyond a short term effect: There has to be something that there that will benefit you across the entire encounter.

Naturally you wouldn't want to do that with EVERY ENCOUNTER if you've got lots of encounters in the game. Sometimes it's nice to just have an instant-death spell too, y'know?
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
RPG combat always reminds me of something similar to a puzzle game, like Portal: you have a limited moveset (portal guns), a situation to deal with (puzzles), where the situation is made up of slowly-learned pieces (moveable blocks, switches).

Jumping off your points, Isrieri, I see the player's ability list as the learned, steadfast moveset to be used against the ever-changing (but still learnable) enemy encounters.

Since your ability list (all your spells, attacks, usable items, etc.) changes very sparingly, you have time to get used to it. You know that you can stick to basic attacks when you're low on MP and use nukes when there's an enemy you have to take out quickly. Your character's abilities are the common ground between every battle and that gives the player a confidence that they can work with.

Enemy encounters vary in size, shape and threat, and the fun of battle comes from figuring out the best way to handle them. Which enemies are an immediate threat? Which can I ignore? Do any of my abilities stand out here? Even better, encounters are unique, but enemies are not - meaning that once you learn what threat an enemy poses, you can use that information for the rest of the game, in any battle that enemy (or his recolored brothers & sisters) shows up in.

This all comes together to create the strategy you learn and influence what choices you make in battle. Like LockeZ said, since we're trying to create challenge here, we must create competitive choices, the core of an RPG's challenge. Choices are only competitive if they could feasibly lead to victory. However, we can mix up which choices are currently competitive by varying enemy encounters and by slowly adding versatility to your abilities - this prevents a simple-minded strategy from being strictly superior, because the strictly superior strategy changes from battle to battle and turn to turn.

When well-done, I think an RPG battle system will allow players to connect familiar dots while experimenting with the best solutions to any particular encounter. Enemies are components to be learned and dealt with, and bosses are the test of the skills you have learned up to that point.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
@Trihan:
Hmm. Letting the player micro-customize their options is more difficult than giving them a set of options - you have to weigh each one very carefully. It can be very effective, but at least to me it's also easier to mess up. You have less leeway in making choices with extreme results, because it's far harder to ensure that there's a big enough downside to make up for the super high damage or awesome status effect or whatever. The player can pick his own downside from a list of choices, and then can try to adjust his other skills (or even other aspects of the same skill) to make that downside not matter.

Effectively, what you've created is a system where the player never has to choose between two objectives and two different objectives. He only chooses between one objective and one different objective. This gives them a feeling of freedom and control that a lot of players like, for sure, but the cost is that their choices will feel less important. Because choosing one thing is just inherently less important than choosing two at once.

That's not to say it can't be done extremely effectively. The freedom of building their own choices sounds like it's very important to your game, so I certainly wouldn't scrap this idea. Just keep its weaknesses in mind and try to find ways to overcome them.
Trihan
"It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey...stuff."
3359
Yeah, I'm aware that it might end up backfiring and ending up just being a superfluous feature. I also know that some people might not be too hot on making their own spells, so I had played with the idea of doing sort of an "elective mode" sort of thing a-la Diablo 3 where you can either choose to use the spell creation system or just turn it off and have the game fill out their spell roster for you.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
I completely misunderstood what you meant by 'tension.' Welp!
I would never call this tension. I spend literally less than a second deciding on an ability once I figure out an enemy weakness. Spam the strongest ability and use the weaker one after it runs out. Having some arbitrary reason why the weaker one has slow damage is just annoying. When things have slow damage (Mana Khemia is a good example), I usually cast it to fill up CTB spaces (if CTB is the case) and drain the monster a bit, while keeping the pressure up with medium strength spells of that type.

No, what actually is tension is being forced to make these choices while you're also having to deal with battle conditions like HP Sap or Attack Disable. As in, it actually makes you tense.



I try to spread the choice trough multiple characters.

My plan is to first make defense mandatory. The player has to use skills who's purpose is to decrease the amount of damage enemies can inflict rather than injuring them. Offense and healing will not let you survive for long. This means that I have to make it more costly to just take the damage and then heal it than mitigating it with defensive skills.

There are multiple ways to mitigate damage. There's status effects, defense buffs and tanking. Different characters have different ways to mitigate damage. If you overuse defensive skills, you also end up wasting MP because not only do those skills have a cost, but it will take longer to win the battle and buffs/debuffs will run out and have to be recast. So, the idea is to find the best balance and choose the skills that mitigate damage as much as possible with the least amount of actions for that particular battle.

From an offensive perspective, the characters are also good at different areas. The thief character for example, can deal great damage to low defense enemies, but is very ineffective against high defense enemies. So, which enemies the characters are good at killing also has to be taken into account when planning who does what.

At least that's the idea. I know of a full 0% of commercial RPGs which have pulled something like that off.

author=slashphoenix
As a sidenote, I think enemy randomness can be used to effectively add to this tension. If the enemy has two attacks - both equally powerful but essentially different (say a direct attack and a slow but powerful poison) - and the player knows this, it's the player's job to be prepared for either inevitability. This is not the same as a boss having a small chance to OHKO your party, because the player can avoid dying to either possible attack if they've assessed things properly before it's too late. If the player gets into a situation where one attack will kill them and the other won't, they've already screwed up - and now they just have to hope the enemy screws up too.

I think it would be awesome if one could take it to a new level and not only make it so that the player has to plan for either attack, but if the RNG also altered the flow of battle. Basically, the enemies can trough their actions render certain tactics ineffective and that way force the player to change tactics. The same encounter could lead to a different battle.
If you do that, might as well let defense heal a small amount (possibly equal to your level), after using. I know the problem most people have with defending is that they take the damage anyway, and the monster still has full life.

I know of one RPG that made me use defend in battle ever(Legend of Dragoon) and it pretty much required defend to heal token amounts of life.


Also, in order to use special attacks and do higher than abyssmal damage, you needed to time attacks several times in a row, to use the skill. This trained the skill, which allowed you to learn new skills once it was trained (but honestly, unless you were freakishly good at timing, midway through the game, you'd probably want to sidequest for a rare item that let you auto-time it). The game had extremely good healing items (1/2 hp or full hp, good revival, fair to good healing items, and poor but effective offensive items which were mainly for crowd control), but you were limited to like 33 items PERIOD.

Btw, this sort of thing still isn't called tension. It's called game balance. People only think of game balance as "is the hero stronger than the monster, is the monster stronger than the hero, and how much?" but it's more than that. You need to strengthen weak abilities (giving people a reason to use them), and make strong abilities have a risk to use (if an ability was 0 MP, it either sucked, was hard to learn, carried some risk to use, or had some limiter like once ever other turn). Balance requires you to weigh things, tension causes you to stress out because game is genuinely hard (but see Challenge vs. Frustration for a whole mess of issues with making a game hard).
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
author=Crystalgate
I think it would be awesome if one could take it to a new level and not only make it so that the player has to plan for either attack, but if the RNG also altered the flow of battle. Basically, the enemies can trough their actions render certain tactics ineffective and that way force the player to change tactics. The same encounter could lead to a different battle.


I like this idea... where an enemy restricts a player's actions through whatever choice it takes. Hmm, let me brainstorm a couple:

-An enemy that, on turn 1, casts either a Magic Shield or a Physical Shield on itself, reducing damage taken from that type by 50%. Pretty simple, but it definitely changes your priorities.
-An enemy that restricts item usage while alive.
-An enemy that doubles your mana costs.
-All enemies have a chance to regenerate one another, meaning they all have to die at the same time.

I've been experimenting a lot with creating this flowing strategy/tension in battles. A lot of my monsters have different "priority" - where priority is the order they should be focused on. One enemy enters battle sleeping, so it can be safely ignored for a few turns but should be killed as soon as it awakens. Another enemy has low HP but a high-damage poison, so it should be killed ASAP. Finally there is a lumbering enemy with high HP that only attacks (with high damage) every few turns, so it should be killed before his first attack if possible and certainly before his second.

author=bulmabriefs144
Btw, this sort of thing still isn't called tension. It's called game balance.


It really is both - we're using balance to create tension and to get the player to focus on strategy. There is definitely a stress when making decisions in battle, but in theory it's good stress and not bad stress. Most "challenge" games focus on creating that stress, and are fun because the player feels triumphant and earns relief from that stress when they do well.
With defense I didn't mean so much the defense command, rather I was referring to skills whose purpose is to decrease the damage you take. As for Legend of Dragoon, I used defend there until I got an accessory that let you regenerate 10 MP per turn. I gave it to a healer and then like that, the defend command was rendered useless.

slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
The "Defend" command has always been ludicrously useless in most RPGs. It does make sense in certain contexts though, such as when you know an enemy is about to unleash a super-attack. I wish more games would either scrap it or make it useful - it seems like one of those dumb things we keep around for tradition's sake.
author=slashphoenix
author=Crystalgate
I think it would be awesome if one could take it to a new level and not only make it so that the player has to plan for either attack, but if the RNG also altered the flow of battle. Basically, the enemies can trough their actions render certain tactics ineffective and that way force the player to change tactics. The same encounter could lead to a different battle.
I like this idea... where an enemy restricts a player's actions through whatever choice it takes. Hmm, let me brainstorm a couple:

-An enemy that, on turn 1, casts either a Magic Shield or a Physical Shield on itself, reducing damage taken from that type by 50%. Pretty simple, but it definitely changes your priorities.
-An enemy that restricts item usage while alive.
-An enemy that doubles your mana costs.
-All enemies have a chance to regenerate one another, meaning they all have to die at the same time.

I've been experimenting a lot with creating this flowing strategy/tension in battles. A lot of my monsters have different "priority" - where priority is the order they should be focused on. One enemy enters battle sleeping, so it can be safely ignored for a few turns but should be killed as soon as it awakens. Another enemy has low HP but a high-damage poison, so it should be killed ASAP. Finally there is a lumbering enemy with high HP that only attacks (with high damage) every few turns, so it should be killed before his first attack if possible and certainly before his second.

author=bulmabriefs144
Btw, this sort of thing still isn't called tension. It's called game balance.

It really is both - we're using balance to create tension and to get the player to focus on strategy. There is definitely a stress when making decisions in battle, but in theory it's good stress and not bad stress. Most "challenge" games focus on creating that stress, and are fun because the player feels triumphant and earns relief from that stress when they do well.

God, as I'm writing this my computer is making a loud humming sound, that's growing. I just got this computer a year ago. It's at least twice as fast as the old one, but something is seriously wrong with the way it manages heat. Yay, it's the one fast enough to test all game functions without lag and it's failing on me.

Or an enemy that casts Ghost (physical evasion, whatever you call it) or Reflect (or better, both in a single monster party, making you plan around individual enemies rather than hitting the mass nuke spell). The massive monster regrow I've done too. I've also made this scenario as part of my ECS system:

Add a common event Attack Status when any party member attacks, as well as a variable which changes depending on who used the Attack command (and thus tracks who is attacking). Now inside the Attack Status, create a condition (call it Guilt or something), that takes hp equal to that hero's ATK. Start the battle with that and regen to get an interesting retribution effect (as in, you're fine as long as you don't attack), and you can do the same for monsters with a bit of work.

"Balance" vs "tension" is really just arguing semantics. I just can't see using that word. And yea, I kinda understand, from playing a few well designed (rather than frustrating) battles.

Crystal, I did that too. Pretty much how you get through the final boss easy. Battle God Whatever (there's a bad one that doesn't deal full damage and doesn't charge abilities, and a good one that does both, but requires either extreme grind or taking out Metal Slime enemies to get the cash) and that ring on your white or blue dragon. Even the hard way (waiting around for White Dragon with the same ring) involved this, since by this point defending seemed to make battle slower than any final battle had a right to be (the first play of Legend of Dragoon took me 6-10 HOURS since I had no combo ability and thus had to wait for White Dragon to launch decent attacks). I literally pulled an all-nighter one day.

Top ways of improving Defend:
  • Already covered above. The whole minor heal thing.
  • Immunity to status (Legend of Dragoon covered this too).
  • Defend not only reduces physical damage massively, but raises miss chance for spells (good for Exploder type spells).
  • Defend allows counter mechanism (I tried this one battle, but it was extremely crude, basically based on a random number variable, and making a fake attack which got responded with by a scripted attack, making me leave it just for that battle).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Well, it's a specific kind of balance. I didn't have a better word for it.

There are plenty of other types of balance, so just saying balance by itself didn't really get the point across. When you have different elements of attacks that are useful against different enemies in a Final Fantasy kind of way, making the elements do the same damage and be useful about as often as each-other is certainly a kind of balance, but it doesn't create any tension, because there's always a best element. The idea with what I'm talking about is to make situations where the player's action is a legitimate choice where both options feel like things you equally want to do, instead of one of the options being the thing you're supposed to do next and thus being your inevitable next action.


Example of tensionless balance:
- You have a single target attack skill, an area attack skill, and a stun skill. You get mastery points based on which skills you use, so it's important that they all be useful about equally.
- Battles are evenly split up between single enemies and groups of enemies, and about one third of all enemies use powerful attacks that they warn you about one round before using them, so you can stun them and stop the attack. This makes all three skills get used as often as each-other.
- However, there's always a clear best skill to use. If there's one enemy that's not charging up a powerful attack, you're going to use the single target attack every time.

Example of balance through tension:
- You have a self-buff that makes you do triple damage next round, a single-target attack, and a stun skill. You get mastery points based on which skills you use, so it's important that they all be useful about equally.
- About one third of all enemies use powerful attacks that they warn you about one round before using them, so you can stun them and stop the attack.
- But if they start charging up for a powerful attack right after you buffed yourself, your next move isn't so clear. If you decide to stun them, you'll waste your triple damage buff. If you go ahead and attack, you'll take a major hit. Your next action is a real decision, instead of an inevitability.


It can exist outside of battle too!

Example of tensionless balance:
- Your main character has four possible party members he can bring with him. Each one uses attacks of a different element: fire, ice, holy, and dark.
- In order to make the characters equally useful, you make a fire dungeon, an ice dungeon, a holy dungeon and a dark dungeon, so each character has a dungeon that they're best in.
- However, there's still no reason not to use the character who's best at the time. You'll inevitably use the ice character in the fire dungeon.

Example of balance through tension:
- Your main character has four possible party members he can bring with him. Each one has a special skill that gets you stuff: lockpicking, mining, blue magic, and monster taming.
- Every dungeon has opportunities to use all four of these things. Therefore, you'll miss out on different types of rewards based on who you leave behind.
- This PULLS AT YOUR HEART because there's no right choice. Every option is worth doing, which means every option involves sacrificing the other options. But you can't do them all.


As is probably obvious from the fact that I made this thread, I think the balance through tension is way more fun. It feels like I'm playing the game instead of just pressing the buttons that the screen prompts me to press. It's the difference between gameplay that could be done exactly as well by a very simple AI and gameplay that requires a player.


Also:
author=bulgingbriefs
I spend literally less than a second deciding on an ability once I figure out an enemy weakness. Spam the strongest ability and use the weaker one after it runs out.
Man, the fact that you've never played a game that has any tension doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And it certainly doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. There are games out there that do this really well. The Dragon Age games on nightmare difficulty, the Etrian Odyssey games, and World of Warcraft all do pretty good jobs at this.
Brady
Was Built From Pixels Up
3134
Although I understand your point, and get why you're calling it "tension", I really don't think tension is the right word. As for as what bulma's saying, it's all about creating a situation for players where decision-making is relevant and consequential, making them have to think and act on the situation rather than just spamming quick-dualcast-ultima/rasp every single turn knowing that no matter what happens next you'll do the same thing again next turn.

I s'pose that's much wordier than "tension", though.

Regardless, I do agree. It's a hard balance to cover effectively, since you need to balance the skills, the characters stats/growth and the enemies stats/skills/ai all correctly at each stage in the game you want these skills to be useful; and that's the crux of the issue really...as soon as even one of these goes off balance, the player notices it.
It's not about the skill choice becoming less "tense" anymore, but about the fact that they realise that even if they do use their triple-damage buff then the enemy does the same thing, they can just attack hard and either kill the enemy first, or just shrug off the enemy's triple damage due to their attack/defence (respectively) suddenly off-balancing itself.

More words, I see....

Point is, I reckon balance is more importantly set in the stats/skill calculations/how your game mechanics work, rather than the base skills themselves.
Pages: first 12 next last