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AMBIVALENCE AND FRUSTRATIONS: THE RPG MAKER TALE.
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PhantomLimb
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CloseI wasn't entirely sure where to post this, so here goes.
I used to be into the RPG Maker scene somewhere around 2008-10, youtube channel, projects and everything. Somewhere along the line, the community (in my eyes) dried up, so I took a hiatus. I've not touched it for years, turning to other outlets like music, etc, not really paying much attention to the RPG Maker community apart from dropping in every so often to see if there's anything new that rivals 'The Way' (i'm still looking). But, after picking up FF7 on Steam not a week ago, I'm filled with an inescapable desire to return to where I left off.
However, I feel stuck before a few caveats, and so all these creative thoughts are left bottled and unexpressed inside my head.
Back then, things like character and story were second fiddle to elements such as gameplay, so these are newfound woes. Immersion in the plot is integral for me now, and I feel this is incredibly difficult to pull off, on RPG Maker. Timing and dialogue is one thing, but I'm having trouble giving life to motionless 32 x 32 sprites.
I've experimented with editing charsets to create nodding, "sad", and shrugging animations, but I'm no visual artist, so it's alot of work for something not exactly immediately rewarding, and the results are often too sketchy for my finicky self.
So I'm curious; what is the most effective way of communicating emotion and immersive storytelling in an RPG Maker project? How would I go about getting around this frustrating caveat? Are there words of wisdom I can follow, or some state of mind I should enter? What are some good examples of community games here that convey emotion and immersive storytelling effectively? Are there visual artists in the community happy to fulfill requests related to editing charsets? Am I just being too pensive?
I think this is alot to ask, but I'd appreciate any sort of response.
I used to be into the RPG Maker scene somewhere around 2008-10, youtube channel, projects and everything. Somewhere along the line, the community (in my eyes) dried up, so I took a hiatus. I've not touched it for years, turning to other outlets like music, etc, not really paying much attention to the RPG Maker community apart from dropping in every so often to see if there's anything new that rivals 'The Way' (i'm still looking). But, after picking up FF7 on Steam not a week ago, I'm filled with an inescapable desire to return to where I left off.
However, I feel stuck before a few caveats, and so all these creative thoughts are left bottled and unexpressed inside my head.
Back then, things like character and story were second fiddle to elements such as gameplay, so these are newfound woes. Immersion in the plot is integral for me now, and I feel this is incredibly difficult to pull off, on RPG Maker. Timing and dialogue is one thing, but I'm having trouble giving life to motionless 32 x 32 sprites.
I've experimented with editing charsets to create nodding, "sad", and shrugging animations, but I'm no visual artist, so it's alot of work for something not exactly immediately rewarding, and the results are often too sketchy for my finicky self.
So I'm curious; what is the most effective way of communicating emotion and immersive storytelling in an RPG Maker project? How would I go about getting around this frustrating caveat? Are there words of wisdom I can follow, or some state of mind I should enter? What are some good examples of community games here that convey emotion and immersive storytelling effectively? Are there visual artists in the community happy to fulfill requests related to editing charsets? Am I just being too pensive?
I think this is alot to ask, but I'd appreciate any sort of response.
The emotions animations work better than trying to simulate emotion by editing charsets. And they're cuter. I saw Final Fantasy V nods and shoulder shrugs (bland... even on FF8, they're not convincing), versus Tales of Phantasia angry emotion. I actually preferred the emotion popup.
So make cute like crying emotion popups or borrow them from emoticons.
So make cute like crying emotion popups or borrow them from emoticons.
Avee
5794
You can communicate emotion and facilitate immersion through dialogs and narration too, as it is the case in a novel.
I often talk about horror games, take a look at Taut, Schuld, The Longing Ribbon, Backstage and Desert Nightmare. These games succeed at expressing various emotions using minimal graphics resources. They rather rely on dialogs, atmosphere and the mere presence/interaction of various characters in a scene, and of what these characters are about, their motives and personalities.
You might want to try reading on storytelling and writing tips as an alternative to practicing pixel art.
Edit: Yeah and you can also use music and even gameplay to achieve this. Almost everything in a game can contribute to the immersion, so don't focus on sprites.
I often talk about horror games, take a look at Taut, Schuld, The Longing Ribbon, Backstage and Desert Nightmare. These games succeed at expressing various emotions using minimal graphics resources. They rather rely on dialogs, atmosphere and the mere presence/interaction of various characters in a scene, and of what these characters are about, their motives and personalities.
You might want to try reading on storytelling and writing tips as an alternative to practicing pixel art.
Edit: Yeah and you can also use music and even gameplay to achieve this. Almost everything in a game can contribute to the immersion, so don't focus on sprites.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You claim that the characters in RPG Maker games are motionless sprites, but there's no reason that has to be the case. Not only do they not need to be motionless, but they also don't need to be sprites.
Have you ever played Fire Emblem, or Disgaea? The cut scenes in those games are done differently - large portraits of the characters' upper bodies appear facing each-other in front of a background, several on screen at a time. This can be pretty easily emulated in RPG Maker, and I've seen a couple games do so. I can think of one example that uses Fire Emblem edits for its graphics, which is a thing that's fairly easy for a first time spriter to accomplish.
Regarding what Avee said about using gameplay to accomplish story, it's absolutely not only possible but extremely important to do so. People talk about gameplay and story like they're opposed to each-other, but here is the dark secret: they are actually the same thing. The gameplay tells the story, and the story gives meaning to the gameplay. You cannot seperate them.
I will find a link later, when I'm not typing from a cell phone with a 1G signal, but you should watch what I think is the very first episode of Extra Credits.
EDIT: Yes here it is WATCH THIS WATCH THIS
Have you ever played Fire Emblem, or Disgaea? The cut scenes in those games are done differently - large portraits of the characters' upper bodies appear facing each-other in front of a background, several on screen at a time. This can be pretty easily emulated in RPG Maker, and I've seen a couple games do so. I can think of one example that uses Fire Emblem edits for its graphics, which is a thing that's fairly easy for a first time spriter to accomplish.
Regarding what Avee said about using gameplay to accomplish story, it's absolutely not only possible but extremely important to do so. People talk about gameplay and story like they're opposed to each-other, but here is the dark secret: they are actually the same thing. The gameplay tells the story, and the story gives meaning to the gameplay. You cannot seperate them.
I will find a link later, when I'm not typing from a cell phone with a 1G signal, but you should watch what I think is the very first episode of Extra Credits.
EDIT: Yes here it is WATCH THIS WATCH THIS
0range00
0
as mentioned above, large portraits or using facesets in message boxes is the best way i believe. Music and writing have equally large role.
as for emoticons, i really don't like them. I prefer silly shoulder shrugs and head shaking.
check out Romancing Walker, i think that game managed to bring it's characters alive with minimal gimmicks.
as for emoticons, i really don't like them. I prefer silly shoulder shrugs and head shaking.
check out Romancing Walker, i think that game managed to bring it's characters alive with minimal gimmicks.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
OK, so aside from just linking the above video, let me rave on Final Fantasy 13 for a little while. Because it's a really fantastic example of conveying the narrative through the gameplay (how much of it was by accident or by design is up for debate, but even if you think this was all accidental, you can still learn from it).
Disclaimer: If you play FF13, you will probably hate it. That doesn't mean there aren't certain things it did amazingly, though.
One thing that pisses people off about FF13 is that most of the game is a 40 hour long hallway. It's extremely linear. But FF13 has one central theme to its story: You cannot escape your fate. You will spend the whole game wanting to, but there's no way you can. Wish as you might, there's no path you can take other than the one that the gods have forced upon you. The dungeon design reinforces this theme. You, like the characters, are forced onto a set path. You are not given the option to falter, to wander, to change your mind, to choose a different option. You feel this limitation through the entire game. And because the gameplay creates this atmosphere, the dialogue doesn't have to spend much time on it. The vast majority of the dialogue can take this extremely important aspect of the narrative for granted, and focus on the characters and the events. They don't have to stop and show Sazh and Vanille cursing about how they wish there was some other choice after every single cut scene, because you already feel that, as the player. They only mention it during critical moments when it becomes overwhelming to them. While you might (and probably do) think that the hallway dungeon design is really annoying, and maybe they could have found a different way to convey the same theme, it's hard to argue that the hallways didn't do their job.
Quick rundown of other gameplay mechanics in FF13 and what they added/reinforced in the plot, usually subconsciously in the player's mind:
- The ATB bar moves so fast that there's no time to choose abilities or read what they do
You are being actively pursued by enemy soldiers, constantly, for the entire game. You never have a single moment to stop and study your options and figure out a better path forward. You really need to. It would help a lot. But every time you try, someone starts shooting at you.
- Instead of towns, you buy items and equipment through automated websites at save points. Shop transactions effectively takes place outside the game's narrative, in a digital menu.
You are not welcome anywhere, and even if you were, there's no time to stop. You're too busy trying to escape your pursuers. The player might have time, but Lightning doesn't.
- When your team first joins together after being branded, Hope and Sazh don't fight. They just sit in your party and gain experience for the first dungeon. When Snow leaves the team, Sazh readily takes his place in the active party, while Hope continues contributing nothing. You can't change the team; it's set to these characters.
Lightning, Snow and Vanille are the ones with real fighting experience. Sazh is not a fighter, but is willing to step up. Hope is completely out of his element and terrified.
- The first time you get the Sentinel role, which is a tank role that specializes in taunting enemies to attack itself, it's granted to Snow.
Snow is really good at making people want to punch him in the face. I want to punch Snow in the face.
- For the first six hours of the game, you can't gain experience points.
You are branded with a mark at that point in the game, and your growth is linked to your brand. The grid where you spend your experience points is not just an abstract concept - the more your powers develop, the closer you are to turning into a monster. Each tier of the grid that unlocks causes your brand to evolve, and brings you closer to oblivion.
(Of the things listed, this one is the most obnoxious, and almost everyone can agree it shouldn't have been done by the game designers. It caused too many gameplay problems and didn't add much to the narrative. (Personally I'd have still done this, but used the first six hours to introduce and flesh out the equipment crafting system, and had the player gain power that way until the experience point system was unlocked.))
I guess my overall point is that you shouldn't dismiss a "focus on gameplay". You should focus on making the gameplay support the story. You should figure out what you want to convey, and find ways to do so through the parts of your game that aren't cut scenes. Your narrative comes from more than facesets and dialogue boxes. It's woven into every button press and every skill tree and every battle animation.
Disclaimer: If you play FF13, you will probably hate it. That doesn't mean there aren't certain things it did amazingly, though.
One thing that pisses people off about FF13 is that most of the game is a 40 hour long hallway. It's extremely linear. But FF13 has one central theme to its story: You cannot escape your fate. You will spend the whole game wanting to, but there's no way you can. Wish as you might, there's no path you can take other than the one that the gods have forced upon you. The dungeon design reinforces this theme. You, like the characters, are forced onto a set path. You are not given the option to falter, to wander, to change your mind, to choose a different option. You feel this limitation through the entire game. And because the gameplay creates this atmosphere, the dialogue doesn't have to spend much time on it. The vast majority of the dialogue can take this extremely important aspect of the narrative for granted, and focus on the characters and the events. They don't have to stop and show Sazh and Vanille cursing about how they wish there was some other choice after every single cut scene, because you already feel that, as the player. They only mention it during critical moments when it becomes overwhelming to them. While you might (and probably do) think that the hallway dungeon design is really annoying, and maybe they could have found a different way to convey the same theme, it's hard to argue that the hallways didn't do their job.
Quick rundown of other gameplay mechanics in FF13 and what they added/reinforced in the plot, usually subconsciously in the player's mind:
- The ATB bar moves so fast that there's no time to choose abilities or read what they do
You are being actively pursued by enemy soldiers, constantly, for the entire game. You never have a single moment to stop and study your options and figure out a better path forward. You really need to. It would help a lot. But every time you try, someone starts shooting at you.
- Instead of towns, you buy items and equipment through automated websites at save points. Shop transactions effectively takes place outside the game's narrative, in a digital menu.
You are not welcome anywhere, and even if you were, there's no time to stop. You're too busy trying to escape your pursuers. The player might have time, but Lightning doesn't.
- When your team first joins together after being branded, Hope and Sazh don't fight. They just sit in your party and gain experience for the first dungeon. When Snow leaves the team, Sazh readily takes his place in the active party, while Hope continues contributing nothing. You can't change the team; it's set to these characters.
Lightning, Snow and Vanille are the ones with real fighting experience. Sazh is not a fighter, but is willing to step up. Hope is completely out of his element and terrified.
- The first time you get the Sentinel role, which is a tank role that specializes in taunting enemies to attack itself, it's granted to Snow.
Snow is really good at making people want to punch him in the face. I want to punch Snow in the face.
- For the first six hours of the game, you can't gain experience points.
You are branded with a mark at that point in the game, and your growth is linked to your brand. The grid where you spend your experience points is not just an abstract concept - the more your powers develop, the closer you are to turning into a monster. Each tier of the grid that unlocks causes your brand to evolve, and brings you closer to oblivion.
(Of the things listed, this one is the most obnoxious, and almost everyone can agree it shouldn't have been done by the game designers. It caused too many gameplay problems and didn't add much to the narrative. (Personally I'd have still done this, but used the first six hours to introduce and flesh out the equipment crafting system, and had the player gain power that way until the experience point system was unlocked.))
I guess my overall point is that you shouldn't dismiss a "focus on gameplay". You should focus on making the gameplay support the story. You should figure out what you want to convey, and find ways to do so through the parts of your game that aren't cut scenes. Your narrative comes from more than facesets and dialogue boxes. It's woven into every button press and every skill tree and every battle animation.
author=0range00
as mentioned above, large portraits or using facesets in message boxes is the best way i believe. Music and writing have equally large role.
as for emoticons, i really don't like them. I prefer silly shoulder shrugs and head shaking.
check out Romancing Walker, i think that game managed to bring it's characters alive with minimal gimmicks.
I dislike large portraits. I played Vacant Sky, and while I liked the game itself, the portraits didn't really do anything for me. You also have to be a serious artist, while I myself have done faceset editing mainly by copypasting stuff and changing position of eyebrow, etc. With a full portrait, it's clunky, and time consuming, and let's face it, people will spend the same amount of time on your messages.
Voice acting is a better investment, if you wanna show emotion. But unless you understand how to reduce file size (hint: Disharmony), you're likely to be spending a huge amount of file space on sound.
Facesets are best, followed by voice acting (for the above reason, it's below the first), followed by emoticons. I wouldn't even rate large portraits or nods/hand gestures in there, since the balance of work (silly shoulder shrugs aren't very silly when you have to work for like 3 hours drawing/framing/redrawing and then find out they look stupid) versus capacity for expression is negative.
Compare gestures (about 1:50) to emotions (0:57). Which is (1) more visible, (2) more expressive, (3) easier to make, less line up, and generally cuter? Duh, emotions. The third hand-shrug in the first game, and I was already sick of it.
Play the games Love and War, and Forever's End. There are some other good games, but there's also some crappy ones, and I know for a fact these two have pretty decent character immersion. (Vacant Sky is another one, but the gameplay is too open-ended in many places) They're a good tutorial on engaging characters. Now if only either of them would get around to making a Part Two, I'd be greatly pleased. Also, the game I'm enjoying right now is Star-Stealing Prince, which has at least a few good characters.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
TIL from bulma that if instead of only drawing a character's face, you keep drawing and end up with a portrait of their upper body, you no longer have the ability to show expressions or emotions.
No, but.. Well, I've seen pro-rpgs too, you can make facial expressions and stuff like crossing arms, and even the Objection pose. The issue, however, is it's alot of work. I believe the OP said something along the lines of an easy and reliable way to make characters come alive. You can do this with a combination of facesets, characterization, and emotions.
Or you can try portraits and spend twice as long.
But anything, including voice acting, can go wrong. Wait lemme find that link... I found world's worst game voice acting.
Yea, this.
Or you can try portraits and spend twice as long.
But anything, including voice acting, can go wrong. Wait lemme find that link... I found world's worst game voice acting.
Yea, this.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Voice acting always seems to end up like that, somehow. Even in professional games. I mean, shit, they paid money and that was the best they could do. I cringe at the idea of lowering that to "one unemployed guy spending a few hours a week in his basement on RPG Maker" quality.
Anyway, however you decide to do cut scenes, I would recommend deciding on a method before deciding how your characters look. Because whatever you pick, your life will be a lot easier if you can take someone else's already-done work and make minor edits to it. And I don't mean "drawing new poses" - that's major edits. I mean "changing the hair color". But if you already decided on a specific appearance for your character, you won't be able to find portraits that match in every way but the hair color.
Anyway, however you decide to do cut scenes, I would recommend deciding on a method before deciding how your characters look. Because whatever you pick, your life will be a lot easier if you can take someone else's already-done work and make minor edits to it. And I don't mean "drawing new poses" - that's major edits. I mean "changing the hair color". But if you already decided on a specific appearance for your character, you won't be able to find portraits that match in every way but the hair color.
Spriting is the best option in my opinion if you are up to it. Also don't forget that music can be used to convey emotions pretty well.
RyaReisender
200
I'm not really a fan of portraits.
I know everyone hates the game, but I love how it is done in Beyond the Beyond. Sometimes there are whole cutscenes without a single sentence written, just small 2D 32x32 (I think?) character sprites walking around, touching each other, vibrating, no portraits, not even emotion bubbles, and you will still understand what is happening. I think that's pretty amazing.
I know everyone hates the game, but I love how it is done in Beyond the Beyond. Sometimes there are whole cutscenes without a single sentence written, just small 2D 32x32 (I think?) character sprites walking around, touching each other, vibrating, no portraits, not even emotion bubbles, and you will still understand what is happening. I think that's pretty amazing.
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