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NON-RANDOM RANDOMNESS

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In Harvest Moon, the weather each day can be any of the following:
- Sunny, which is the norm
- Rainy, which makes growing crops easier and raising livestock harder
- Hurricane, which destroys crops and kills animals

Players commonly reload their game if a hurricane ever occurs, essentially removing the existence of hurricanes.

1. How would you feel about determining the sequence of events beforehand?
The player will become aware of this should he ever replay a set of days.

2. How would you feel about influencing the RNG to not be random?
Eventually, there will be ten consecutive days of rain. This "oddity" could be ended prematurely at, say, the fifth day.


These are relevant to other forms of randomness.

Players can restart battles until an attack critical hits, or until a slot machine lines up 777.

Oddities can exist in the form of attacks with 90% accuracy missing thirty times in a row, or a roulette wheel never landing on the first dozen in twenty rolls.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Man honestly the problem with hurricanes in harvest moon wasn't that they were triggered by an abusable kind of randomness, it was that they were random at all. Don't make cataclysmically detrimental things happen randomly, that is bullshit. Hurricanes in harvest moon are up there with AOE instant death and invisible spikes. If something ruins your day, it should be a punishment for doing something in the game really wrong. In the same way that the player shouldn't just randomly get a game over, they shouldn't have thing like this happen outside their control, because really, any result that makes them want to reload their last save is effectively a game over.

Similarly, huge rewards should be rewards, that is, they should be awarded to the player as a result of doing something right. Instead of for randomness.

If your random element makes you think that it needs a specific type of algorithm to not be abusable, it's probably bullshit and should just be removed from the game entirely. Probably. I mean, there are exceptions. I don't honestly know how to make a roguelike fun, for example.

Randomness in smaller things seems mostly okay. A chest with random loot is gonna be pretty much no big deal as long as all the rewards are of approximately similar value.

I guess if you do want big randomness though, and you have a good reason for wanting it, then another alternate way of handling it is to not give the player the option to reload from his last save in the first place. If you don't want the player rewinding the game, then why give them the ability to? Don't let saving be handled manually by the player at all. Have the player create a save file when he starts the game from the beginning, and have the game automatically save itself at certain checkpoints, like probably at the end of every battle and after opening every chest and after basically any meaningful action that isn't in the middle of a battle or puzzle or other individual challenge. And any time something happens that you don't want the player to be able to undo and get a random result, you put a checkpoint there and save the game right after he does it.
Backwards_Cowboy
owned a Vita and WiiU. I know failure
1737
1. I like to determine events in a way where if the player does something in the beginning, they either can or can't do something later in the game. If you open a chest hidden in an area that the player shouldn't be in, such as a castle where you are trespassing, then you can't get an awesome weapon/armor later in the game. For randomness, to prevent players from erasing hurricanes, you could set up the game to determine weather a week or a month at a time. You don't know what Friday's weather will be, and if you saved after the start of the week or month, then you can't stop it. Even if you restart from a save from the previous week, there's no way of knowing what the new weather is.

2. The whole ten days of rain, while unlikely, is possible, so to limit it you could have a variable counting the current consecutive days of weather, and if it starts to get to high, such as three or more consecutive days of rain/drought, it automatically prohibits that weather for at least two days.
I decided against using save-related measures for a few reasons:
- It doesn't work. Files can still be copied and whatever. Players can still abuse reloading, albeit with a bit more effort. This works when data's saved on a server, which.. I'm not doing for an RM project.

- It can affect normal players. I'm specifically talking about deleting save files once they've been loaded. On top of not working, if a player forgets to or is unable to save, gg.

- It doesn't allow saving anywhere. A third way to discourage abusive reloading is to place random events "far" (distance or time) from save points. I actually like this approach, but it's not applicable to my current project.

The random feature I had in mind is similar to an NPC that sells a parameter upgrade chosen at random. The "setback" here is like 5~10 minutes of play. And by "setback," I mean gaining +10 INT instead of +10 STR.


@Backwards_Cowboy
We're on the same page in terms of derandomizing randomness, but very off-topic

If you open a chest hidden in an area that the player shouldn't be in, such as a castle where you are trespassing, then you can't get an awesome weapon/armor later in the game.

Apparently you'd like to recreate the Zodiac Spear, the best weapon in FF12.

If you open a chest in an area where the player isn't supposed to be in (he's sneaking into the Royal Palace), then you can't get this awesome weapon later in the game.

Thankfully, the brilliant developers gave players stupid enough to open treasure chests another method: an endgame treasure chest that contains a Zodiac Spear 0.1% of the time.

FF12 is one of my favorites, but I love the ingenious design behind the Zodiac Spear.
Something I've considered is making my RNG not a real RNG at all. Give the RNG a constant seed and advance it (possibly multiple times) both as needed and during mundane actions, like simply moving around. This means that if one playthrough is given the exact same inputs as another both playthroughs will be identical. Part of it is a meek argument for player RNG manipulation and mostly because I like determinism. Maybe it'll work and be fun, need to make a functional game and see how this works.


I did something similar in Demon's Gate. Most chest's contents are random and each one had a designated variable to use when determining its contents. These variables are seeded with a random number when starting a new game. So whenever the player opens the chests the contents are predetermined... mostly. Most chests (if they didn't have anything really valuable like next tier gear) would check the player's capabilities of healing themselves. If it was found to be insufficient (aka healing score vs hard coded value that would increase over the course of the game, or having means of healing certain statuses) the chest would forgo its usual contents and give some healing items instead.


Also because I sperg the chances of the chest having the Zodiac Spear is 1% (10% of being a weapon, 10% of that weapon being the spear). The 0.1% is because there's a 10% chance of the chest spawning.
Isn't Harvest Moon supposed to be a farming sim? I don't remember real farmer's being able to control when bad weather happens...

Bad shit happens... games aren't always about ultimate control of all things. To write off randomness that happens beyond the player's influence as bad design is shortsighted.

1. I like randomness. It removes/lessens predictability from the game.

2. Randomness? Bring it on.


I remember reading an article about some strategy game player who would savescum his way through games all the time, but then one time he DIDN'T, and played the game with integrity instead and had a helluva lot more fun! The tension, the drama, the intensity all kicked up a notch when there was a real chance of LOSING.

That being said, I wouldn't worry to much about forcing your players to play with integrity. Just give the ones that want to play with integrity the option to do so.
@GreatRedSpirit
That's actually in line with some of my philosophical views. Same inputs => same results.

Anyway, I've been considering using the current state of the party to influence a random decision as well, touched upon by the second question. Say I wanted the party to obtain a roughly equal number of weapons or armor. If the party ended up with eight weapons and only two armor pieces, then I could perhaps change the 50/50 drop into a 30/70.

Also, say I wanted the party to encounter a monster chosen at random from a pool of ten. If the party ends up mostly facing only eight of them, I could then decrease the likelihood of encountering the "common" monsters.

the chances of the chest having the Zodiac Spear is 1%

o u


I actually save scum all the time, but don't like when games allow me to at all. If I can keep reloading until a 20% success rate enchant works, then just make the success rate 100% (with only 20% of the enchant's former effectiveness?) so I don't have to reload twenty times. The feature I'm planning to implement, however, does need to be random.
I'm actually often using the same system as GreatRedSpirit.

Randomness on computer is already implemented so that there must be a seed value and the chain of results will always be the same depending on that value. So why not let that seed value be controlled rather than using some time-related semi-random seed value.

In one of the roguelikes I made, I always showed the seed value of the dungeon generator to the player and I made a cheat code that allowed you to set the seed value. That way if one player manages to beat the roguelike, he can publish the seed value and others can try to beat that exact dungeon themselves. Also nice if you want to play a roguelike simultaneous with some friends. :-)
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
Randomness should be there to make the game more challenging, exciting, or otherwise enjoyable to play. Too much unfairness in your randomness will cause your players to quit, but just the right amount can be intriguing - randomness is almost the entire reason the roguelike genre works at all.

Harvest Moon, however, is different than a roguelike because the games are meant to last a long time. If your game rolls a devastating effect like a hurricane, it will tarnish a playthrough that players have put a lot of time into, unlike most roguelikes, which have very short time investments (to counteract the pain of bad rolls). That's not to say a random hurricane in Harvest Moon would be terrible. It could add a lot of excitement, as long as you limit its power to add just the right amount of stress to the player, and limit how frequently it can occur so a freak fluke doesn't kick the player while they're down (two hurricanes in a row would probably feel like that). Also, Harvest Moon games are usually kind enough to warn you of the next day's weather on TV, keeping the random feeling but giving the smart player time to react.

Another really great way to use randomization in this situation is with parallels or sidegrades, i.e. have the result of the roll be similar in gain or loss to the player, but in a different way. If a day is going to be a "bad weather day" you could roll between heat wave and rain. A heat wave requires your crops to be watered more, and makes you tire more quickly, but can be counteracted by swimming. A rainy day means you don't have to water your crops, but you tire more quickly and might get sick. In addition, both have their own related sub-events (like gnomes or fairies appearing or NPCs swimming on the beach, whatever). This can increase the excitement of a dice roll while minimizing the pain of it.

To answer the OP's questions:
1) Pre-determining the sequence of events is acceptable but reduces randomness. This might hamper replyability... but in Harvest Moon the player has a lot of different approaches they can take, so the randomness may not be necessary in the first place.

2) Influencing the RNG to limit the more devastating possibilities of fluke randomness is absolutely a-okay in my book, especially in a game like Harvest Moon. Three hurricanes in a row will probably never be fun for the player, even if they realize they're just subject to nature's whims. However, in a shorter roguelike, I'd say leave that possibility in because people expect wacky flukes of nature (and won't be as upset since the game is shorter).

i'm gonna just write that article now
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