Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
HOW TO ADD FUN TO GRINDING?
Posts
Isrieri
View playlists
CloseGrinding is usually something people are able to do in games. Often appears in ones holding the genre "RPGs".
What almost everyone fails to realize is that it is usually an optional endeavor. If at any point it becomes a mandatory one, you're doing it wrong.
I've only ever considered grinding something akin to a very flexible "fake difficulty" meter you can adjust at will.
What almost everyone fails to realize is that it is usually an optional endeavor. If at any point it becomes a mandatory one, you're doing it wrong.
I've only ever considered grinding something akin to a very flexible "fake difficulty" meter you can adjust at will.
That's why I'm saying the best way to do grinding is to hide it - to disguise it as questing or filling out a bestiary. That way, you get the same effect as grinding, but the player has a good solid goal in mind.
Of course, something that most certainly needs to be considered is also pacing. If you've got a point in your game that forces the character to grind, what your problem really is isn't that your game's grinding is boring, but that its pacing is flawed and needs to be fixed.
Of course, something that most certainly needs to be considered is also pacing. If you've got a point in your game that forces the character to grind, what your problem really is isn't that your game's grinding is boring, but that its pacing is flawed and needs to be fixed.
McBick
1339
@LockeZ
1) Doing the same task multiple times for rewards
The game has non-random encounters.
I think adding a minigame which can only be done after x amount of a monster kills or time that gives lots of experience and reward points which you can spend after enough games played is something that might work.
Also adding a bounty system so that your required to kill certain monsters to get rewards or reward points to spend once you have enough would also work.
1) Doing the same task multiple times for rewards
The game has non-random encounters.
I think adding a minigame which can only be done after x amount of a monster kills or time that gives lots of experience and reward points which you can spend after enough games played is something that might work.
Also adding a bounty system so that your required to kill certain monsters to get rewards or reward points to spend once you have enough would also work.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I guess my suggestions aren't really "how to make grinding fun" so much as "how to make the game fun while grinding". Which is probably cheating as far as answering the question, but works perfectly fine assuming your actual end goal is just "how to improve your game without having to make new enemies." You draw attention away from the grinding. The player is focusing on something else so intently they don't realize they're grinding.
RyaReisender
200
As a person that actually loves grinding, I have to agree with the people who said it's silly to just generally say that grinding is boring and can never be fun.
To answer the question, I think the main way to make grinding fun is making the combat fun. In Tales of Phantasie I often just started it up to do 5-10 battles without continueing with the story at all. That's because I really liked the battle system. In Ragnarok Online I can grind forever due to the the battles requiring skill and the monsters respawning at a random location each time and being able to randomly walk over the whole map. Also their view range is as high as your. This gives really fun gameplay as you have to walk around the map to find more monster but never now when you will suddenly be surrounded by them which due to the challenge and skill required can get quite troublesome.
For normal RPG Maker games with a turn based battle system I'd usually suggest to make ALOT of different possible encounters. Usually people only put 3-6 different encounters per dungeon. Make it 30 at least with at least 6 different monsters, combat in different ways. Then try to put monsters in those encounters that work well together and can be easily won with the right tactic, but are hard with the wrong tactic. Tactic means skill and thinking required, making the battle system more fun. Add more randomness to monster behavior in combat so that even if the player has the same encounter again, it's different depending on what skills the monsters choose.
However, since the OP said he doesn't have random encounters, I strongly recommend AGAINST grinding. Grinding is not fun if it's always the same. Even if you randomize loot and quest rewards it will NOT be fun. Combat (or you whatever you repeat) itself needs to be different too.
To answer the question, I think the main way to make grinding fun is making the combat fun. In Tales of Phantasie I often just started it up to do 5-10 battles without continueing with the story at all. That's because I really liked the battle system. In Ragnarok Online I can grind forever due to the the battles requiring skill and the monsters respawning at a random location each time and being able to randomly walk over the whole map. Also their view range is as high as your. This gives really fun gameplay as you have to walk around the map to find more monster but never now when you will suddenly be surrounded by them which due to the challenge and skill required can get quite troublesome.
For normal RPG Maker games with a turn based battle system I'd usually suggest to make ALOT of different possible encounters. Usually people only put 3-6 different encounters per dungeon. Make it 30 at least with at least 6 different monsters, combat in different ways. Then try to put monsters in those encounters that work well together and can be easily won with the right tactic, but are hard with the wrong tactic. Tactic means skill and thinking required, making the battle system more fun. Add more randomness to monster behavior in combat so that even if the player has the same encounter again, it's different depending on what skills the monsters choose.
However, since the OP said he doesn't have random encounters, I strongly recommend AGAINST grinding. Grinding is not fun if it's always the same. Even if you randomize loot and quest rewards it will NOT be fun. Combat (or you whatever you repeat) itself needs to be different too.
I like grinding only in games that use a form of skill-point system, or if the game is co-op. I have no problem grinding when playing Tales of Xillia with my younger brother, as having somebody to grind with is not only more fun, but makes it go by faster due to me having better control of the butler than the AI does (I just cast Tidal Wave at the start of every battle, wipes out 90% of all enemies). Or if the game has an action-oriented battle system, like the Tales series (Graces and Xillia in particular, as they had a point-based and level system), or even FFXII and FFX with the grids and licenses. If the grinding means customizing my character, I'm sure as hell going to do it, even more so if the battles require my undivided attention or skill. I'll even willingly kill the same damn Earth Dragon hundreds of times if it drops 10,000 Gald so that I can donate it towards the millions required to rebuild the town.
It all depends on how your game works. Grinding just to level up and follow a set linear path is AWFUL game design. It only worked in the 80's due to most games lacking much of a story, and your other options in games being those that had to be beaten in one sitting or just for a high score. But even the indie-game technology has evolved beyond that, and just look at the remakes of those 80's games: Final Fantasy I for the PSP and iPhone is ridiculously easy, and grinding takes mere minutes if done in the correct area. Final Fantasy II saw changes to its stat gaining system, so that you could max out your stats quickly if you knew the proper tactics. Grinding is only fun if it offers rewards. Gaining a level so that you can learn that skill you will ALWAYS learn at level 30 every playthrough is NOT a reward, and will not make it any more fun.
It all depends on how your game works. Grinding just to level up and follow a set linear path is AWFUL game design. It only worked in the 80's due to most games lacking much of a story, and your other options in games being those that had to be beaten in one sitting or just for a high score. But even the indie-game technology has evolved beyond that, and just look at the remakes of those 80's games: Final Fantasy I for the PSP and iPhone is ridiculously easy, and grinding takes mere minutes if done in the correct area. Final Fantasy II saw changes to its stat gaining system, so that you could max out your stats quickly if you knew the proper tactics. Grinding is only fun if it offers rewards. Gaining a level so that you can learn that skill you will ALWAYS learn at level 30 every playthrough is NOT a reward, and will not make it any more fun.
RyaReisender
200
One reason I like grinding is that it gives me a chance to finish every game by just investing a bit more time.
In games with no or limited grinding, when I die at a boss, I will simply not play the game anymore (unless I think I know a way to increase my odds on the next attempt). That means even if I liked the story I will never see it through the end because the game puts a challenge that's harder than I can overcome.
If the game allows grinding and I die at a boss I know. Hey, let's just leave the dungeon for now and do some other dungeon or side quest or something and come back later and I know when I come back, I will be significantly stronger and can defeat the boss now. It somehow gives me a reason to continue going. I like it particularly much in games that are challenging and offer a rather open world (as in, if you can't beat one boss you always have other stuff to do).
Grinding can be pretty bad in easier games because you might end up overleveled and then the battles are no longer fun because it's too hard to die in them even if you don't even care about tactics anymore.
Grinding for me is a great way to balance difficulty. I like it a lot more than an always-changeable difficulty setting because "I die at the boss, I set difficulty to easy and then defeat the boss easily." feels really dumb, while grinding feels like when I defeat the boss I'm actually getting rewarded for my effort.
And games that try to solve it differently usually end making the game easier for good players and harder for bad players, which is pretty counterproductive. If the reward for a good player is that he has to grind less rather than getting a better item or gold reward, then that keeps the difficulty high for him, while the weaker player will have to invest some effort as penalty but in the end he will continue the game at a higher level, making the difficulty a bit easier.
In games with no or limited grinding, when I die at a boss, I will simply not play the game anymore (unless I think I know a way to increase my odds on the next attempt). That means even if I liked the story I will never see it through the end because the game puts a challenge that's harder than I can overcome.
If the game allows grinding and I die at a boss I know. Hey, let's just leave the dungeon for now and do some other dungeon or side quest or something and come back later and I know when I come back, I will be significantly stronger and can defeat the boss now. It somehow gives me a reason to continue going. I like it particularly much in games that are challenging and offer a rather open world (as in, if you can't beat one boss you always have other stuff to do).
Grinding can be pretty bad in easier games because you might end up overleveled and then the battles are no longer fun because it's too hard to die in them even if you don't even care about tactics anymore.
Grinding for me is a great way to balance difficulty. I like it a lot more than an always-changeable difficulty setting because "I die at the boss, I set difficulty to easy and then defeat the boss easily." feels really dumb, while grinding feels like when I defeat the boss I'm actually getting rewarded for my effort.
And games that try to solve it differently usually end making the game easier for good players and harder for bad players, which is pretty counterproductive. If the reward for a good player is that he has to grind less rather than getting a better item or gold reward, then that keeps the difficulty high for him, while the weaker player will have to invest some effort as penalty but in the end he will continue the game at a higher level, making the difficulty a bit easier.
UPRC
5516
I've always liked grinding when there are multiple rewards in a single grind. If you're just grinding to reach X gold, kills, or whatever to get one specific item or spell, it's pretty boring. In my opinion, FF6 did grinding right in my opinion with Espers. Say you've equipped Ramuh because you really want to learn Bolt 2 on a character. Ramuh also gives you Bolt and Poison (I think), both of which you'll learn on your way to grinding out magic points for Bolt 2.
I like FF6's Espers because you're shooting for multiple spells in a single grind, and you usually have four grinds on the go if every character in the party has an Esper equipped. You're being rewarded quickly and often.
I like FF6's Espers because you're shooting for multiple spells in a single grind, and you usually have four grinds on the go if every character in the party has an Esper equipped. You're being rewarded quickly and often.
I don't think grinding has to be disguised as something pseudo-grinding, or even necessarily lead to better/more varied rewards. I'd just make battles more interesting - like random boosts to certain spells (IIRC Naufragar Crimson did this pretty well), or certain combinations of attacks leading to interesting side-effects. Stuff like that.
Make it about the journey, not the end goal.
Make it about the journey, not the end goal.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If the battles are legitimately different then it's not grinding. The question is how to make it enjoyable when you're doing the exact same fight the exact same way every time, over and over. Obviously removing the repetitiveness makes it more enjoyable; the question is how to make repetitiveness fun though.
McBick
1339
Why is it in MMORPGs grinding is fun even though you do it for much longer periods of time, but in rogue-likes and the sort they aren't nearly as fun?
RyaReisender
200
Grinding isn't fun in most MMORPGs.
It's exactly how Backwards_Cowboy and me wrote already. There are 3 things that really help grinding:
- skill required in combat
- versatility (high variety of strategies / encounters)
- playing with others
In some MMORPGs all 3 criterias are given and then grinding is fun.
If you are talking about your general MMORPG with endless locally respawning monsters and you just press "Tab" to target it and "1" to initiate attack in endless loop, then it's not fun.
Though every boring task can be made fairly bearable if you chat while doing it.
It's exactly how Backwards_Cowboy and me wrote already. There are 3 things that really help grinding:
- skill required in combat
- versatility (high variety of strategies / encounters)
- playing with others
In some MMORPGs all 3 criterias are given and then grinding is fun.
If you are talking about your general MMORPG with endless locally respawning monsters and you just press "Tab" to target it and "1" to initiate attack in endless loop, then it's not fun.
Though every boring task can be made fairly bearable if you chat while doing it.
author=LockeZ:O Really? I was under the impression that "grinding" just referred to partaking in a repetitive activity for certain rewards. Otherwise, it's an ultimately flawed question that I refuse to answer. If you're making someone do the exact same fight the exact same way every time over and over, you're doing something horribly wrong. Sorry...
If the battles are legitimately different then it's not grinding. The question is how to make it enjoyable when you're doing the exact same fight the exact same way every time, over and over. Obviously removing the repetitiveness makes it more enjoyable; the question is how to make repetitiveness fun though.
RyaReisender
200
I think LockeZ's argument is that if every battle is different you are not actually partaking in a reptitive activity as the activity is not repetitive.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Yellow MagicI'm not gonna disagree with this statement, I'm just gonna point out that the number of commercial RPGs which do exactly this is, like, more than half of them.
If you're making someone do the exact same fight the exact same way every time over and over, you're doing something horribly wrong. Sorry...
McBick
1339
@RyaReisender
If grinding isn't fun why do MMORPGs have so many players? MMORPGs are all about grinding, most of them at least.
If grinding isn't fun why do MMORPGs have so many players? MMORPGs are all about grinding, most of them at least.
In terms of MMORPGs, grinding may be more about taking advantage of certain aspects of human nature in order to make money. "Rare drops", for instance, is a concept that takes advantage of our love of gambling. But if the elements are there and it then becomes fun for those people, that doesn't make it bad. It just becomes a new take with new people on an old game. Note that it doesn't exactly make it virtuous either.
You can try to change the game, but it's difficult to change people, especially once they become older. This is why commercial games are perpetually marketed to the 20-and-under crowd, which is always refreshing itself and looking for something new to bond to. Games that try to do something new often end up attracting people that were looking for that kind of thing anyway.
You can try to change the game, but it's difficult to change people, especially once they become older. This is why commercial games are perpetually marketed to the 20-and-under crowd, which is always refreshing itself and looking for something new to bond to. Games that try to do something new often end up attracting people that were looking for that kind of thing anyway.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=McBick
If grinding isn't fun why do MMORPGs have so many players?
author=Zachary_BraunThis hits on something powerful that designers desperately need to realize about many things, including grinding: people do things for reasons other than because they're fun. A lot of the things we do in games aren't fun, the game just offers a choice between two bad feelings, and so players choose the less bad one. A lot of people don't enjoy grinding but do it anyway, because even though boredom is a bad feeling, wasting their available options is a worse feeling. It's not a worse feeling to everyone, but it's a worse feeling to some people.
In terms of MMORPGs, grinding may be more about taking advantage of certain aspects of human nature in order to make money.
This is the same reason I'm a completionist. I don't enjoy hunting down every abstergo fragment, bottled letter, sea shanty, and treasure chest in the entire world in Assassin's Creed - I find it tedious. But if I don't do it, I feel like a quitter, like I got beaten by the game and slunk home with my tail between my legs instead of trying again. And that's a worse feeling, to me, than tedium.
MMOs gain players by using psychology that in many cases may not be even remotely related to the idea of fun in any way. They use daily quests to make you feel like every day you don't log in is wasted. They create the illusion of progression in their raids to make you feel like you're making progress each week, giving you hope that that feeling of success is just ahead and almost in your grasp - even though actually you're perpetually one step from the bottom, because the bottom step moves up along with you as they give out stronger and stronger gear for free, and there are an infinite number of steps above it because they continuously release new content. They also have fun parts, but the fun parts aren't the reason why people play them for thousands of hours. Not really.
Edit: This is also why I don't believe in the argument "Why try to discourage or prevent players from playing the game a certain way if that's what the players want to do?" Because I believe players want to do things that aren't fun. If I can remove grinding as an option, I can keep people from feeling compelled to do it just to avoid a bad feeling. They don't feel like they missed an opportunity by not grinding, because there's no opportunity to miss. They can get back to the fun part without being compelled to do the shitty part.
RyaReisender
200
I agree with most said. It's not like many people go grinding in MMORPGs because they think it's fun. People grind for example because they want a good armor or a high level so they can dominate other players in PVP. Because what is really fun for most is making others suffer by killing them over and over. Some even pay hundreds or thousands of $ just to be the strongest and able to dominate others.
In Aion for example, players are doing mass suiciding all day to lose exp, so they can stay in low level PVP regions while gaining better and better gear. And then they go around and kill 100+ players without dieing. And then they say this is the best aspect of the game.
There are a few MMORPGs where grinding is actually fun, let's say 10 out of 200 (for reasons, see above), but it's still not the main reason why people play these games.
And MMORPGs certainly shouldn't taken as example when you are designing an RPG Maker game. At least not when you want to make your game fun (which is implied by the thread title).
@LockeZ
It makes sense to remove things that are not fun and force the player to NOT do them. The problem is with things that are fun for some and not fun for others. Like difficulty. You might think yourself that a game that is really challenging but not impossible is most fun and you might right about that. But different people have different skill. You can perfectly balance the game for yourself, but if someone better or worse than you plays it, his fun will be limited because he's not you.
Even more simple example: You like trance music most, so you put trance music in your game. People who also like trance music will of course enjoy it. But people who don't like it won't. If the music style was optional everybody could listen to the music he likes most.
The question is not if you are a better game designer than the player, the question is how to make a game so that it's fun for different kinds of people. Of course you can also draw the "niche" card...
In Aion for example, players are doing mass suiciding all day to lose exp, so they can stay in low level PVP regions while gaining better and better gear. And then they go around and kill 100+ players without dieing. And then they say this is the best aspect of the game.
There are a few MMORPGs where grinding is actually fun, let's say 10 out of 200 (for reasons, see above), but it's still not the main reason why people play these games.
And MMORPGs certainly shouldn't taken as example when you are designing an RPG Maker game. At least not when you want to make your game fun (which is implied by the thread title).
@LockeZ
It makes sense to remove things that are not fun and force the player to NOT do them. The problem is with things that are fun for some and not fun for others. Like difficulty. You might think yourself that a game that is really challenging but not impossible is most fun and you might right about that. But different people have different skill. You can perfectly balance the game for yourself, but if someone better or worse than you plays it, his fun will be limited because he's not you.
Even more simple example: You like trance music most, so you put trance music in your game. People who also like trance music will of course enjoy it. But people who don't like it won't. If the music style was optional everybody could listen to the music he likes most.
The question is not if you are a better game designer than the player, the question is how to make a game so that it's fun for different kinds of people. Of course you can also draw the "niche" card...
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Extra Credits did a pretty good overview of why people do grinding despite the fact that it's not all that fun.
McBick, did you get your answer? I don't think we got a solid definition of what you meant by "grinding."
McBick, did you get your answer? I don't think we got a solid definition of what you meant by "grinding."
