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ARE ACHIEVEMENTS A POOR WAY TO INCREASE GAME LENGTH?
Posts
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Corfaisus
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CloseI guess I'm just not that outwardly vain? If I get it, cool, whatever, but what I care about I'll make a personal goal of. Like when I was solo running Stratholme for the Deathcharger's Reins or Sunken Temple for a Dragon's Call (I've got 2 now), I wasn't doing it because there was some sort of extreme achievement for having gained such things or for having run the dungeon a certain way (sure, there's a world achievement for the mount, but who cares?) but because it was something I, myself, desired, and the only reason I'd ride it through town is because I worked hard for it, not to show it off as if I've got nothing else in my life to feel good about.
A trophy of any sort, whether that be a mansion or an expensive car, just feels like something I would never be able to truly appreciate for what it is because I'd be too afraid of damaging it in some way. It's the same for games where your equipment can either break permanently or you lose if you die (mostly during PVP). Sure, I could spend forever working for that one item that not everybody has, but what if something stupid happened and I lost it?
A trophy of any sort, whether that be a mansion or an expensive car, just feels like something I would never be able to truly appreciate for what it is because I'd be too afraid of damaging it in some way. It's the same for games where your equipment can either break permanently or you lose if you die (mostly during PVP). Sure, I could spend forever working for that one item that not everybody has, but what if something stupid happened and I lost it?
TheNecromancer
3160
*edit: Corfaisus, I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Are you are saying that we don't need in game achievements because we can make up our own? I think that Ferrari metaphor did more harm than good..
It's like getting exp for playing games. Especially on PSN, you literally have a level that rises as you get trophies. I enjoy that. It's a quantifiable number that represents how much I play games.
You get those easy "achievements" because you are playing the game. It's that simple. You get exp from level 1 slimes in an RPG because you beat them, not because it was hard. Just by beating a game, you will get a certain amount of exp. They give you that exp by creating basic achievements for stuff you need to do to beat the game. Then they follow it up with the harder and more specific stuff. I find that most achievements and trophies on xbox/psn are not dumb time wasters. They are often stuff like "Kill 5 enemies with a grenade". Those systems do a good job. I can't speak for any other kind of achievement system though.
There are people, maybe a group of friends, who LIKE to compete over achievements. Like everything else, healthy competition pushes us to try harder.
Am I the only person who has to right click and auto correct every single time I write out achievements? xD
It's like getting exp for playing games. Especially on PSN, you literally have a level that rises as you get trophies. I enjoy that. It's a quantifiable number that represents how much I play games.
You get those easy "achievements" because you are playing the game. It's that simple. You get exp from level 1 slimes in an RPG because you beat them, not because it was hard. Just by beating a game, you will get a certain amount of exp. They give you that exp by creating basic achievements for stuff you need to do to beat the game. Then they follow it up with the harder and more specific stuff. I find that most achievements and trophies on xbox/psn are not dumb time wasters. They are often stuff like "Kill 5 enemies with a grenade". Those systems do a good job. I can't speak for any other kind of achievement system though.
There are people, maybe a group of friends, who LIKE to compete over achievements. Like everything else, healthy competition pushes us to try harder.
Am I the only person who has to right click and auto correct every single time I write out achievements? xD
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=SoozAffirmation of an accomplishment.
So, what reason is there to implement achievements in the first place, if not competition?
That just seems like a really strange thing to me. Like, if I try to do something interesting or hard in a game, I can tell when I've succeeded and I don't need the game to let me know that.
My stance is basically that it does not add any appreciable benefit to the game to outweigh the annoyance it causes some players. It seems to me that not putting in achievements would cause literally no problems for any players, while putting them in causes problems for some players.
I just really don't get why anyone would care about them strongly enough to want to have them. vOv
Affirmation of an accomplishment is a strange thing to you? You never appreciated anyone affirming of a cool thing you did? Someone telling you your outfit looks great or you smell good? Someone telling you they thought your presentation was cool? You're a good kisser? They think you're smart? Your drawing was great? You did good on your math test? You smelled good? That was an awesome field goal?
etc etc
etc etc
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I think for most people that feel that "argh! why does a banner pop up every time I do something 'significant'", an option to turn off the automatic 'ding' message would help. That way you can have all the achievements you want without having to worry about some people bitching about how it ruins the immersion. If this is already an option, there truly is no reason to complain during gameplay.
For everything else, maybe make the achievements screen part of a menu that not everyone concerns themselves with? Like, just throw it into the "settings". That way it's not like "*fires up machine* welcome to your life. btw, you've got # points out of 700,000. grade: must welp harder." Sure it's still there, but at least it isn't immediately thrown in your face.
It's always nice to feel good and to feel like what you're doing matters, but at the end of the day, it's a game... Very rarely have people gotten tail over how well they play NFL Madden '07, and I wouldn't leave it at strictly concrete levels of thinking when comparing a warm, passing smile to fillacio.
For everything else, maybe make the achievements screen part of a menu that not everyone concerns themselves with? Like, just throw it into the "settings". That way it's not like "*fires up machine* welcome to your life. btw, you've got # points out of 700,000. grade: must welp harder." Sure it's still there, but at least it isn't immediately thrown in your face.
It's always nice to feel good and to feel like what you're doing matters, but at the end of the day, it's a game... Very rarely have people gotten tail over how well they play NFL Madden '07, and I wouldn't leave it at strictly concrete levels of thinking when comparing a warm, passing smile to fillacio.
I'm actually very ambivalent on the presence of achievements, honestly, I can either take them or leave them, but I'm having a hard time actually fathoming the concept of them decreasing the enjoyment of a game for anyone. 'God damn it, this list of achievements is getting on my last nerve! What a waste of 60 dollars!'
i mean really tho?????
i mean really tho?????
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Sated
I don't get why them being there would make the game worse for someone who doesn't care about them. Accept that other people do care about them and move on, they're not changing your experience of the game whatsoever.
People in this thread have posted exactly why they feel achievements ruin their enjoyment of a game, so I guess go back and read the thread?
Desertopa
775
author=Link_2112
So, it seems like every reason why achievements are bad is a personal taste issue.
Of course it's a personal taste issue. anything one might like or not like about video games is a matter of personal taste. I'm not arguing that achievement systems are objectively bad, but I'm describing my own reasons for why they detract from my enjoyment when I play a game.
author=Link_2112
I don't feel that it even classifies as game design, because it doesn't affect the game in any way. If you quit a game solely because it has achievements and then you start writing bad reviews of the game because of that, you are insane and should have all video game privileges revoked.
Bottom line is if an achievement is not required to beat a game, or obtain anything in game, then it can't possibly be bad design. It's an extra thing that can be totally ignored if you don't like it and you can still play the game as intended and beat it without issue. Nobody is forcing anything on you, you are forcing it on yourself. It's not the game devs fault and everyone else is enjoying themselves.
Here's another example of something that isn't required to beat the game. Listening to Navi. Every time she shouts "Hey! Listen!" you can just ignore her. True fact! But somehow she managed to become the most notoriously hated aspect of the game. Maybe those people are just insane and should have their video game privileges revoked.
author=Link_2112
Everyone has a different set of things they want to do. Suggesting that there should be no list, rather than to see one that you don't approve of, is very selfish. And if such a minor thing would cause you to have less fun, then...well...I feel sorry for you.
If we're going to play the "I feel sorry for you" game, maybe I should feel sorry for you for needing a little trophy to tell you it's okay to be proud of yourself for accomplishing something in the game? Or sorry for you for not being able to come up with interesting challenges for yourself without the game designers telling you what to do?
But really, that would be fake condescension. I don't feel sorry for the people who like achievements in their games. Most of all I don't feel sorry for them because they don't get other people making them out to be dysfunctional or selfish for stating their game preferences, although considering how aggrieved some people get just from hearing that other people simply don't share their preferences, you'd really think they were constantly besieged.
But you should really, seriously stop and think for a second about what it means to call people "selfish" for preferring not to have an achievement system. You like having it, it makes the game more fun for you when it's there. I don't like having it, it makes it less fun for me when it's there. I'm aware that if my preferences were implemented, a lot of people would be deprived of something they want, and I'd be very wary about mandating my own preferences considering it would mean forcing them on so many other people. But the reverse is also true, that mandating your preferences hurts some people's experience, and telling them that they're somehow dysfunctional, or have the wrong approach to video games, don't make your preferences unselfish, it just makes you more judgmental and defensive about them.
TheNecromancer
3160
There's a big difference between navi and an achievement pop up.
I don't need a trophy to be proud of what I do in game.
I also never said anything about challenges I might set for myself.
Fake condescension or not, those things don't apply to me. Those aren't universal reasons why people want achievement systems.
If you see a list of optional tasks, and you would do them even though you don't want to, and the core gameplay experience of the game is less fun because of it, I would call that dysfunctional. That is essentially OCD, D stand for disorder. It's not "normal" behavior and it's self inflicted. It's all in your head.
If there is no list in a game, let's say you really enjoyed the game. The combo system was amazing, the characters were stellar, and the difficulty perfect. Are you saying the mere existence of a list, would diminish the fun derived from those actions? The list has no bearing on the battles or the characters or the difficulty, but you chose to get less fun out of it because the dev made a list that you didn't like.
I'm not saying you can't think that way. You are allowed to have your difference of opinion. Go ahead and ruin games for yourself. Meanwhile, we'll continue to have maximum fun and ignore the achievements we don't feel like getting.
If we're talking about random encounters vs touch encounters, that will have a huge effect on game play. Every 30 seconds you get in a fight and dungeons take a ridiculous amount of extra time to explore. No matter how you frame it in your mind, that preference can't be ignored if you are against it. Forcing everybody to play random encounters would be a logical example of hurting others' experience.
Achievements have no effect on game play. It's the same game with or without achievements. It's illogical to say that my preference is hurting others' experience because they are choosing to hurt it themselves. By choosing to put so much importance on getting 100% in every game they play. "100% = fun. Less than 100% = less fun". Just like you might put such importance on flicking the lights 10 times every time you enter a room.
If achievements were removed, your OCD would be slightly easier to satisfy and everybody else would have no universal system of comparing experience and accomplishments. One is in your head and the other is in the real world. Yeah, it's selfish.
Anyways, achievement systems(just like Facebook) are here to stay. So all this discussion is pointless. We just gotta deal with the things we don't like xD Games are full of choices the dev made and you can either play it or not.
I don't need a trophy to be proud of what I do in game.
I also never said anything about challenges I might set for myself.
Fake condescension or not, those things don't apply to me. Those aren't universal reasons why people want achievement systems.
If you see a list of optional tasks, and you would do them even though you don't want to, and the core gameplay experience of the game is less fun because of it, I would call that dysfunctional. That is essentially OCD, D stand for disorder. It's not "normal" behavior and it's self inflicted. It's all in your head.
If there is no list in a game, let's say you really enjoyed the game. The combo system was amazing, the characters were stellar, and the difficulty perfect. Are you saying the mere existence of a list, would diminish the fun derived from those actions? The list has no bearing on the battles or the characters or the difficulty, but you chose to get less fun out of it because the dev made a list that you didn't like.
I'm not saying you can't think that way. You are allowed to have your difference of opinion. Go ahead and ruin games for yourself. Meanwhile, we'll continue to have maximum fun and ignore the achievements we don't feel like getting.
But the reverse is also true, that mandating your preferences hurts some people's experience,It depends on the preference.
If we're talking about random encounters vs touch encounters, that will have a huge effect on game play. Every 30 seconds you get in a fight and dungeons take a ridiculous amount of extra time to explore. No matter how you frame it in your mind, that preference can't be ignored if you are against it. Forcing everybody to play random encounters would be a logical example of hurting others' experience.
Achievements have no effect on game play. It's the same game with or without achievements. It's illogical to say that my preference is hurting others' experience because they are choosing to hurt it themselves. By choosing to put so much importance on getting 100% in every game they play. "100% = fun. Less than 100% = less fun". Just like you might put such importance on flicking the lights 10 times every time you enter a room.
If achievements were removed, your OCD would be slightly easier to satisfy and everybody else would have no universal system of comparing experience and accomplishments. One is in your head and the other is in the real world. Yeah, it's selfish.
Anyways, achievement systems(just like Facebook) are here to stay. So all this discussion is pointless. We just gotta deal with the things we don't like xD Games are full of choices the dev made and you can either play it or not.
UPRC
5516
Man, some people are really passionate about this subject.
I don't mind achievements that keep to themselves and don't bother you at all unless you physicall open the achievements screen yourself. My personal favourite way of implementing a form of achievements is what I did in Blackmoon Prophecy, including a trophy room to show off which optional superbosses the player has defeated. It's just a fun little way to see a visual indication of what you've managed to achieve in a game, and it doesn't force you to ever look at it unless you actually want to.
I don't mind achievements that keep to themselves and don't bother you at all unless you physicall open the achievements screen yourself. My personal favourite way of implementing a form of achievements is what I did in Blackmoon Prophecy, including a trophy room to show off which optional superbosses the player has defeated. It's just a fun little way to see a visual indication of what you've managed to achieve in a game, and it doesn't force you to ever look at it unless you actually want to.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Link_2112
That is essentially OCD, D stand for disorder. It's not "normal" behavior and it's self inflicted. It's all in your head.
By choosing to put so much importance on getting 100% in every game they play. "100% = fun. Less than 100% = less fun". Just like you might put such importance on flicking the lights 10 times every time you enter a room.
If achievements were removed, your OCD would be slightly easier to satisfy and everybody else would have no universal system of comparing experience and accomplishments. One is in your head and the other is in the real world. Yeah, it's selfish.
Because, you know, people make a conscience effort to suffer a debilitating mental illness, because it makes them happy and justifiably self-centered.
Frankly, I don't care how damn small your dick is, if you feel the need to "compare" (brag) about your "accomplishments" instead of simply sharing stories on your experiences (like the true gamers of yesteryear), you're an arrogant, self-serving little shit who needs a serious reality check.
Desertopa
775
I certainly do not choose to let achievements inhibit my enjoyment. By all means I try to pay as little attention to them as possible. But there is nothing unusual about having your enjoyment affected by options you don't have to take. On the contrary, existing psychological research suggests this happens to nearly everyone. For example, study after study has indicated that people can be made to enjoy the same food item off a menu less simply by adding more menu items which they don't choose. It might sound selfish in the extreme for someone to suggest removing items from a menu because they don't want to see them, and it hurts their enjoyment at the restaurant, and yet, when the number of items on the menu gets too high, average levels of satisfaction reported by restaurantgoers actually start going down.
Human beings' ability to decide for themselves what to think about or not think about is extremely limited. "Just decide to ignore it" is a strategy that sounds effective for people who already don't understand why something would be bothersome, but it's very rarely effective in the real world who actually find things bothersome.
Human beings' ability to decide for themselves what to think about or not think about is extremely limited. "Just decide to ignore it" is a strategy that sounds effective for people who already don't understand why something would be bothersome, but it's very rarely effective in the real world who actually find things bothersome.
author=Corfaisusauthor=Link_2112Because, you know, people make a conscience effort to suffer a debilitating mental illness, because it makes them happy and justifiably self-centered.
That is essentially OCD, D stand for disorder. It's not "normal" behavior and it's self inflicted. It's all in your head.
By choosing to put so much importance on getting 100% in every game they play. "100% = fun. Less than 100% = less fun". Just like you might put such importance on flicking the lights 10 times every time you enter a room.
If achievements were removed, your OCD would be slightly easier to satisfy and everybody else would have no universal system of comparing experience and accomplishments. One is in your head and the other is in the real world. Yeah, it's selfish.
Frankly, I don't care how damn small your dick is, if you feel the need to "compare" (brag) about your "accomplishments" instead of simply sharing stories on how much fun you had (like the true gamers of yesteryear), you're an arrogant, self-serving little shit who needs a serious reality check.
Someone who considers those who enjoy simple bragging about good fun on a video game 'arrogant little shits' sounds more like someone who need a reality check to me.
I think somebody should conduct a study into whether or not achievements affect a video game's sales. Does not having "Achievements/Trophies" listed on the back of the box decrease the chance that somebody will buy your game? Does a lack of trading cards decrease the chance of a Steam game selling? And if this proves true, does the number of available achievements/value of the trading cards have a further effect on the sales? Since not too many people can really defend the opinions for either side of the situation, I think something that actually could ruin an indie designer's livelihood would change the whole perspective on whether they are good or bad.
UPRC
5516
author=Backwards_Cowboy
I think somebody should conduct a study into whether or not achievements affect a video game's sales. Does not having "Achievements/Trophies" listed on the back of the box decrease the chance that somebody will buy your game? Does a lack of trading cards decrease the chance of a Steam game selling? And if this proves true, does the number of available achievements/value of the trading cards have a further effect on the sales? Since not too many people can really defend the opinions for either side of the situation, I think something that actually could ruin an indie designer's livelihood would change the whole perspective on whether they are good or bad.
I doubt it. I don't mind achievements, but I never actively look to see if a game has any before I download/purchase it. If they do, cool, something for me to do if I get bored. I've never actively researched a game to see if it had achievements in it.
