WHY FIRST GRADE TO 12TH IS COMPLETELY USELESS, INCLUDING PARTS OF COLLEGE ..
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author=DarklordKeinor
And if they don't practice crop rotation, and they overgraze, then their land will become infertile; that's the farmer's fault and is hardly the public's problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
This presupposes that it is the public's responsibility to provide the farmer an income in the instance they can't farm. How about they don't farm on the land that it is going bad and find another area to farm or another means of income?
yes why don't they just get another job??? gosh if it's really that simple I can't imagine why anyone is starving
yo psa a political ideology founded on the idea that people who face problems should die by those problems so you don't have to deal with them is not a political ideology at all but rather a method of exceptionalist masturbation
author=mawk
yes why don't they just get another job??? gosh if it's really that simple I can't imagine why anyone is starving
You're right. People are just dying left and right in America from mass starvation. Funny thing is, whenever I turn on the news, be it CNN, ABC, or Fox, I usually here of an obesity issue as opposed to starvation.
By the way, if you research the hunger issue, it's poverty that causes starvation, not the lack of food in the country.
author=mawk
yo psa a political ideology founded on the idea that people who face problems should die by those problems so you don't have to deal with them is not a political ideology at all but rather a method of exceptionalist masturbation
Where did I propose that the farmer should be cut off from other forms of welfare? I simply stated it's bullshit that the American public should be required to pay him for unused land for the next ten to fifteen years.
In the mean time, the farmer should be trying to find another means of income. If they cannot, we have so many different welfare programs, such as food stamps, to upkeep them.
author=Sailerius
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
In most instances, privatization of resources would solve that issue.
author=Sated
And I thought that the British Conservatives said some retarded things... 'Murica, much fail, very stupid, so right-wing, wow.
Blah Blah Blah! Ad hominem. If my argument is so retarded, you should have no problem rebutting it.
author=Sated
I love when people say things like "Ad hominem" as if this is a debate class and I give a shit about modifying what they think :3 It doesn't take much for me to know that a country without a universal healthcare system is being governed by idiots who are voted for by idiots. 'Murica, much fail, very stupid, so right-wing, wow.
In any form of conversational discourse, attacking someone instead of their point is usually considered poor form. I have no desire to launch into personal character attacks on you or anyone else so I'll leave it at that.
As for your mentioning of universal health care, that is a completely different subject. Nonetheless, I'll bite. So how do we pay for universal health care on top of all the other services we provide?
My prediction is that he is going to say higher taxes.
author=DarklordKeinorBut compared to what?
I'm not saying that by nature the government is corrupt for merely existing. What I will suggest is that the inadequate mechanisms that are put into place, and the vast size of the government, allows for the ability to game it.
Monarchy, where you marry into privilege? The various forms of despotism where your favor with the overlord or his closest minions determines your privilege?
Or maybe the much-vaunted 'no government' stance, which hasn't actually existed since the neolithic hunter-gatherer era, and from which the immediate evolution of society was despotism?
Representative democracy isn't perfect, but effective incorruptible systems are still a work in progress.
By the way, are you proposing an alternative? The "no government at all" position should have been crossed off the list for being idiotic by now.
author=DarklordKeinorActually, privatization is the root cause of the problem.
In most instances, privatization of resources would solve that issue.
Society generally expects to last forever. Human beings live ~80 years. Corporations and conglomerates only think as far as the next fiscal year. With the morals we have today, if a person can destroy a resource over 10 years to make a quick buck and live in luxury for the remainder of their days, they usually do so.
Once upon a time, farmers passed their land to their children, and they would take steps to ensure it remained fertile. But nowadays kids go to the big city, so that incentive to protect is no longer there. Add to that conglomerates going around buying up farmland with either the intention to exploit for next year's earnings or monopolize to artificially inflate prices.
So no, let's not privatize and let everything go the way of diamonds.
Disclaimer : This isn't an anti-capitalist rant.
pianotm, I generally try to avoid walls of text because nobody reads them. So as not to derail everyone else, my reply to you is in a spoiler window. It's pretty large.
Also, because the crux of your post was to defend your flawed conception of what a government is, and I already told you why you're wrong, I'm just going to pick apart your counterargument.
Chaos being the natural order
Nope. Balance is the natural order. All systems eventually return to equilibrium, though the ride can certainly be chaotic, which can be misinterpreted as a natural order in itself.
To an extent, it may still serve the people, but it will begin to feed upon the people and resources in order to sustain itself.
Only partially correct.
I mentioned to DarklordKeinor that governments become full of gluttons and nepotists because that's where those types of people gravitate to. The most organized of them are Oligarchs. Since the goal of oligarchy is always to protect the oligarchy (maintain & accumulate power), their goal eventually gets expressed in the actions of government.
Back to the main point, it's not the existence of government that's at fault for "feeding upon" to "sustain itself", but the actions of a select group of avaricious people. And ironically, it's the expansion of government that puts checks and balances on the ability of these people to parasitize society.
WE MUST CRITICIZE THE PEOPLE WHO ESTABLISH THE GOVERNMENT
Wrong again.
The apparatus of government is a work-in-progress for mankind like any technological advancement. Representative democracy is pretty good, certainly better than monarchy, but not the best. I'm sure there are better systems we can't even envision because they haven't been invented yet.
So why would you criticize the people who institute new and more effective systems of administration? You might as well criticize scientists for advancing science.
They have a vote, but once their chosen representatives are in place, other forces immediately go to work on them.
Too naive. This is the simple argument of someone who believes exercising their democratic right means ticking a box every 4 years.
You can stand on a corner and hand out pamphlets or hold a sign, you can get in touch your representative, you can organize a walkout or strike, you can even do drastic things like a hunger strike. You can do all these things without being arrested for opposing the state.
Then when the people rebel, they are the ones that history remembers as the villains. It even happened in our own American Revolution! We Americans are the only ones in the world who think Paul Revere was a hero and not a traitor. The sentiment is so prolific that written history is constantly trying to vindicate Benedict Arnold as being a man loyal to the rightful government.
I don't even know where you got this one from.
Popular culture's heroic portrayal of "rebel" is so pervasive that anybody branded as such by the media immediately receives unconditional sympathy. It's why the recent Libyan civil war was able to receive foreign intervention from us uninvolved westerners, and why the Syrian civil war was such a hard fought battle to prevent us from directly intervening.
And Benedict Arnold? That name is literally a synonym for traitor. I've seen people say to one another "you're a Benedict Arnold" because of some betrayal or broken promise.
So I have no idea whose going around trying to vindicate him.
It still gives more than it takes
Actually, if we're talking about the US government, it gives far more (to banks/corporations) then it takes (from citizens). It's kind of the whole reason for the growing class struggle building around us, and why you and I are having this conversation.
Since 1920, our government is increasingly more authoritarian.
Nope.
After WW2, the late 40s, America experienced a sudden swing towards mass populism, the ideological opposite of authoritarianism. It moved so far away from a government oriented towards protecting the elite that it did something unprecedented in all of human history : The middle class became the dominant demographic numerically. America would then go on to obliterate fascism as a viable ideology (like libertarianism is today), hold off communism, develop nuclear energy, and land on the moon.
If by "inreasingly authoritarian" you mean FDR nationalized a bunch of industrial and commercial sectors, well, that's just your opinion.
Finally, as for trust in government: many people believe that our government can be absolutely trusted.
You're just saying this to set up the rest of your paragraph when you know it blatantly isn't true. Shame on you.
Such people do not include the likes of Thomas Jefferson, Bennjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Hancock
More misinterpretation and misunderstanding on your part.
During the time of the US Constitution's creation and afterward, there were two factions. The Federalists and the Anti-Federalists who, as their name implies, were for and against a strong central government over the union.
Jefferson was an Anti-Federalist goofball who almost lost the country during the war of 1812. Fair enough.
But Benjamin Franklin and John Hancock were federalists, and George Washington was a federalist supporter though not officially a part of the party. Even if they knew that governments eventually become filled with greedy and corrupt officials, they still endorsed strengthening government at the federal level. Why, is what you should be asking yourself here.
Many people believe that our government is the best government
Well, it ain't bad. It's the best we've got now, in 2014.
Don't forget that this was the exact sentiment in Germany in the 1930s. What happened? The people gave up their rights to weapons...and what happened next was the second greatest atrocity in history
God, I hate when people make this correlation.
The jews were herded into camps because they didn't fight at all. You don't need guns to resist. Organization > Guns. An unarmed man with a plan can easily take out an armed man without one. If the nazis are coming, ambush them from the closet with a fireaxe or pair of kitchen knives. If every single day a nazi soldier investigated potential jewish hideouts could have been his last, the holocaust wouldn't have been nearly as devastating.
Even if America revoked the 2nd amendment tonight, and all guns instantly vanished tomorrow morning, it wouldn't do big scary government any good. Organization > Guns. The sit-down strike is far, far more effective at dis-empowering the ruling class and revolution than any armed uprising could ever amount to.
Nazi Germany was very popular. A large chunk of the American population supported Hitler during the 1930s.
"A large chunk" didn't support fascism anymore than "a large chunk" supports libertarianism today. The rhetoric of the time disguised the objectionable parts of fascism, and because leading members of the ruling class supported it (primarily for the union busting aspect), as well as the newspapers they controlled, fascism could be talked about at the dinner table.
In other words, fascism was only really supported by leading bankers and industrialists of the time, as well as a few peasant minions who blindly follow the ideology without asking it the big questions.
If you think our government isn't capable of something like this, consider this: HB 645, which passed a few weeks ago, gives our military the authority to corral citizens into approved holding areas in the event of emergency, and it also gives the president the power to declare martial law and emergency powers without the approval of congress or regional governors. FEMA has been digging mass graves across the nation, (I live near one of these facilities), and I have a friend at Woodlawn Cemetery who tells me that the government is trying to requisition all available cemetery space across the country. The use of predator drones in countries we are not at war with has increased, and these countries complain, but they don't challenge the U. S.'s right. Now, the FAA has lifted restrictions to allow the use of drones over American soil (though they still aren't granted access to national airspace...which means they can't fly higher than rooftops.). We have the government's assurance that they aren't ready to start using predator drones here. In 2012, Habeas Corpus was repealed from our laws along with Posse Comitatus (the law that prevents the military from acting as a police force on American soil), and the military was given the authority to indefinitely detain civilians on American soil and to remove them from American soil.
Yeah, I know all about it.
But I chalk it up to oligarchical paranoia.
The ruling class knows shit is coming to a head, so they're laying a bunch of groundwork in the hopes that it'll help them survive. It won't. They can't actually use all this neat stuff because of three things we have : Cellphones, wifi, and the internet. The type of localized media blackout you could do just a few years ago is impossible now, and the only way you can trigger a nation-wide emergency in a country the size of America is by detonating a nuclear weapon on home soil. But a false flag of that magnitude will destroy them immediately if it backfires, so they'll probably never take the gambit.
So don't worry about the FEMA stuff.
The downward spiral of our nation began when we started to think the ideas of our Founding Fathers were outmoded and obsolete.
Sorry. Nobody of any reasonable intellect thinks this.
You see the occasional media pundit stick his/her neck out and say something to that effect, but the sentiment hasn't gone any further than the right-wing reactionary TV and radio programs.
whew. I'm done.
As for your mentioning of universal health care, that is a completely different subject. Nonetheless, I'll bite. So how do we pay for universal health care on top of all the other services we provide?
Well it's as reverent with the education system to farmers I suppose. It's strange how topics with any hint of political undertones manage to get hijacked when an opportunity presents itself. Must... stick... it.. to the man =o=
author=DyhaltoNo.
But compared to what?
Monarchy, where you marry into privilege?
author=DyhaltoNo.
The various forms of despotism where your favor with the overlord or his closest minions determines your privilege?
author=DyhaltoNope.
Or maybe the much-vaunted 'no government' stance, which hasn't actually existed since the neolithic hunter-gatherer era, and from which the immediate evolution of society was despotism?
author=Dyhalto
Representative democracy isn't perfect, but effective incorruptible systems are still a work in progress.
My concern is on the size of government. Obviously, we want to keep our representative system, but we should start by placing limits on the people in power. Term limits for congressmen is one idea that comes to mind. Something like this:
1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman collects a salary while in office
and receives no pay when they are out of office.
2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All
funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security
system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system,
and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for
any other purpose.
3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans
do.
4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay
will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the
same health care system as the American people.
6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American
people.
7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/13.
The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congressmen
made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor,
not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours
should serve their term's), then go home and back to work.
and receives no pay when they are out of office.
2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All
funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security
system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system,
and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for
any other purpose.
3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans
do.
4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay
will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the
same health care system as the American people.
6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American
people.
7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen are void effective 1/1/13.
The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen. Congressmen
made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor,
not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours
should serve their term's), then go home and back to work.
author=Dyhalto
By the way, are you proposing an alternative? The "no government at all" position should have been crossed off the list for being idiotic by now.
I'm proposing a more limited government.
author=Dyhalto
Actually, privatization is the root cause of the problem.
Society generally expects to last forever. Human beings live ~80 years. Corporations and conglomerates only think as far as the next fiscal year.
Privatization can be the root problem if left unchecked and unregulated. Otherwise, I agree with this part of your post.
author=DyhaltoGovernment regulates to prevent the total depletion of resources, though destroying the resources doesn't work to a corporation's advantage. Besides, the laws don't vanish off the books conveniently. That's why we have lobbying.
With the morals we have today, if a person can destroy a resource over 10 years to make a quick buck and live in luxury for the remainder of their days, they usually do so.
author=Dyhalto
Once upon a time, farmers passed their land to their children, and they would take steps to ensure it remained fertile. But nowadays kids go to the big city, so that incentive to protect is no longer there. Add to that conglomerates going around buying up farmland with either the intention to exploit for next year's earnings or monopolize to artificially inflate prices.
So instead we do like the Conservation Reserve recommends and we "rent" the land and pay them to do nothing with it? It doesn't sound like a better alternative. The laissez faire market approach is not what I'm advocating, but the evidence shows that privatization yields more advantages to the consumer and generally provides better results. http://www.cgdev.org/doc/Privatization/ch%201.pdf
The link above shows that while privatization has it flaws, it generally increases the wealth of countries. More wealth equates to more money that the country can tax and use for public spending programs.
author=Dyhalto
So no, let's not privatize and let everything go the way of diamonds.
Disclaimer : This isn't an anti-capitalist rant.
We can regulate laws into place to prevent monopolization.
Besides, what's the alternative? The public option that doesn't perform as efficiently as the private option?
First this thread was about flaws with the education system (in America?)
Then, it transitioned into a debate about the effectiveness of government.
And now we are getting into agriculture...?
This thread is the best stand-up comedy I've ever seen.
Then, it transitioned into a debate about the effectiveness of government.
And now we are getting into agriculture...?
This thread is the best stand-up comedy I've ever seen.
there's no way I'm digging through that mess, but obesity is not a sign of prosperity or excess, and has not been for at least 50 years. obesity is a symptom of poverty, which forces families to compromise on the quality of their nutrition and forego activities like sports clubs, which take both time and money -- elements which an impoverished family trying to stay afloat with possibly multiple jobs per adult does not have. obesity does not occur because someone is 'eating too much', or whatever false equivalency you're trying to drive here. buying healthy ingredients and cooking your own meals every day similarly takes a greater time and money investment than falling back on fast food, and so it's an option that isn't available to most impoverished families. your ignorant use of the obesity phenomenon as 'proof' that impoverished people are simply lazy is, frankly, one of the most horrifically hateful and misinformed things in this thread so far.
because, hey. when you're working two jobs to feed your three kids as their sole parent, you don't always have time to make anything more complex than Hamburger Helper. cheap foods, the kinds that families living in poverty are often forced to fall back on, cut costs by raising the salt, fat, and starch content, all of which aren't exactly healthy in an unbalanced diet.
this is the sort of thing that happens when someone assumes that they already know everything, and moralize their way through life with a mantra of 'it just makes sense'. their ignorant, sheltered ass grows to assume other people had all the same benefits they enjoyed in life, and therefore that all adversity must spring from laziness. it's nearly sociopathic.
because, hey. when you're working two jobs to feed your three kids as their sole parent, you don't always have time to make anything more complex than Hamburger Helper. cheap foods, the kinds that families living in poverty are often forced to fall back on, cut costs by raising the salt, fat, and starch content, all of which aren't exactly healthy in an unbalanced diet.
this is the sort of thing that happens when someone assumes that they already know everything, and moralize their way through life with a mantra of 'it just makes sense'. their ignorant, sheltered ass grows to assume other people had all the same benefits they enjoyed in life, and therefore that all adversity must spring from laziness. it's nearly sociopathic.
author=Sated
I brought up healthcare not because it's relevant, nor because I wanted to talk to you about it, but because it succinctly displays why arguing with right-wing Americans is pointless; namely because they think they know better than pretty much every other developed nation on the entire planet.
It's not that I think I know better than every other developed nation on the planet, but the fact you have to understand is that we cannot afford it on top of every other program we presently supply. You are aware that spending more money than you make leads to debt, right? We could tax the rich at 100% tomorrow and that would not cover our present spending rate. Now you want universal health care on top of everything. Get fucking real!
Balance the numbers and tell me what social programs you want to remove and I'll gladly support universal health care.
author=mawk
there's no way I'm digging through that mess, but obesity is not a sign of prosperity or excess, and has not been for at least 50 years. obesity is a symptom of poverty...
I never said it was a sign of prosperity or excess. I just said people weren't dying left and right over mass starvation.
As for what I said about obesity, I just merely noted that various news outlets went on about it as opposed to people dying of starvation. I was merely mocking your hyperbole in another post.
Anything else you drew from that is you jumping to conclusions.
author=mawk
your ignorant use of the obesity phenomenon as 'proof' that impoverished people are simply lazy is, frankly, one of the most horrifically hateful and misinformed things in this thread so far.
I never said they were lazy. So far, you're the only one to have referred to the impoverished as such.
author=mawk
because, hey. when you're working two jobs to feed your three kids as their sole parent, you don't always have time to make anything more complex than Hamburger Helper. cheap foods, the kinds that families living in poverty are often forced to fall back on, cut costs by raising the salt, fat, and starch content, all of which aren't exactly healthy in an unbalanced diet.
And I agree. Though, I would suggest that if the person having kids can't afford them, they should probably consider contraceptives, or abortion, as an option on the table.
I know this will come as a shock, but I'm not opposed to social spending, which helps provide for those kids.
Welfare (Not including food-stamps or unemployment): $131.9 billion http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
Food Stamps: $71,800,000,000 http://www.statisticbrain.com/food-stamp-statistics/
Total amount of money you can make monthly and still receive Welfare: $1000
Total Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than an $8 per hour job: 39
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than a $12 per hour job: 6
Number of U.S. States where Welfare pays more than the average salary of a U.S. Teacher: 8
My question to you is how much higher should the above numbers be?
author=mawk
this is the sort of thing that happens when someone assumes that they already know everything, and moralize their way through life with a mantra of 'it just makes sense'. their ignorant, sheltered ass grows to assume other people had all the same benefits they enjoyed in life, and therefore that all adversity must spring from laziness. it's nearly sociopathic.
I'm not moralizing anything. Where did I presume people had the same benefits as me? I never said adversity was a result of laziness.
author=DarklordKeinor
My concern is on the size of government. Obviously, we want to keep our representative system, but we should start by placing limits on the people in power. Term limits for congressmen is one idea that comes to mind.
These days, the big incentive to get involved in politics is the revolving door between the public sector and cushy private gigs.
Not to say our current politicians aren't a bunch of pigs at the trough, voting themselves daily raises, but just lowering their salaries and pensions will only encourage the former activity and worsen the corruption.
Also, I'm staunchly against term limits. There are more bad apples in politics than good ones. Why limit the good ones with a dopey process restriction?
You may notice that only the office of the Presidency has term limits, and the 22nd amendment was passed 2 years after FDR died. This probably isn't a coincidence.
author=DarklordKeinor
I'm proposing a more limited government.
"Limited Government" is a libertarian euphemism for no government.
The word "Limited" is unquantified. Once you actually start discussing in detail what sectors government should be limited in, the term loses all it's meaning. But that's because it was never meant to have a defined meaning in the first place. Its a placebo phrase anarcho-capitalists use to avoid the hard questions about their dysfunctional ideas. "Don't worry, there'll be limited government to look after that."
If you have specific ideas on how to 'limit' government, talk about them, but don't espouse that silly catchall phrase.
author=DarklordKeinor
So instead we do like the Conservation Reserve recommends and we "rent" the land and pay them to do nothing with it?
I really don't see why you have such a problem with this.
That land needs to go fallow for awhile to replenish. So what is the farmer going to do with himself during those years? Farming is an unskilled trade, so it's not like his abilities are in demand. There are no high paying factories hiring unskilled labor in America anymore, so that option is out. There's really just minimum wage McDonalds and WalMart. Even other farms pay their workers minimum wage.
Alternatively, there's milking the farmland for one more year just to get by. And maybe one more after that. And one more...
At least with that "rent", the farmer has options with his non-farming time. Schooling, supplement a part time job, whatever.
Besides. It's only $20 billion/year (your figure). That's chicken feed.
Pardon the pun.
I never said it was a sign of prosperity or excess. I just said people weren't dying left and right over mass starvation.
you get that these aren't mutually exclusive, right? that in many cases obesity is actually a stage in the process of starvation?
do libertarians live in a surreal fantasy dimension or are you just naturally this out-of-touch
author=Dyhalto
Not to say our current politicians aren't a bunch of pigs at the trough, voting themselves daily raises, but just lowering their salaries and pensions will only encourage the former activity and worsen the corruption.
So we do nothing?
author=Dyhalto
Also, I'm staunchly against term limits. There are more bad apples in politics than good ones. Why limit the good ones with a dopey process restriction?
The reelection rates remain consistent, so we're still stuck with the same crew. http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/reelect.php
As for a "good" congressmen, that boils down to what their political views are and their behavior in office. So each person will have their own idea of which ones are "good" and "bad."
author=Dyhalto
You may notice that only the office of the Presidency has term limits, and the 22nd amendment was passed 2 years after FDR died. This probably isn't a coincidence.
No it isn't a coincidence. The political leaders were disturbed at the time that someone would run for office for more than 2 terms, which had been a tradition prior to FDR; hence the enactment of the 22nd amendment.
author=Dyhalto
"Limited Government" is a libertarian euphemism for no government.
Both Republicans and Libertarians use that phrase, though I'll concede they both have very different visions of what "limited" means.
author=Dyhalto
The word "Limited" is unquantified. Once you actually start discussing in detail what sectors government should be limited in, the term loses all it's meaning. But that's because it was never meant to have a defined meaning in the first place. Its a placebo phrase anarcho-capitalists use to avoid the hard questions about their dysfunctional ideas.
Dysfunctional ideas? Scaling back government so it can't encroach on your rights is far from dysfunctional. I'm advocating that government get out of the business of marriage, abortion, gun control, prostitution (unless we're dealing with minors), and drug enforcement.
author=Dyhalto
If you have specific ideas on how to 'limit' government, talk about them, but don't espouse that silly catchall phrase.
It starts with budgeting. We need to quit spending more than we are taking in. As for departments, one would have to go through with a fine tooth and comb and start determining what can go and what actions should be taken to reform the departments.
Military spending comes to mind. "We currently spend more on defense than the next 10 countries combined. Defense spending accounts for about 20 percent of all federal spending." http://pgpf.org/Chart-Archive/0053_defense-comparison
author=Dyhalto
I really don't see why you have such a problem with this.
That land needs to go fallow for awhile to replenish. So what is the farmer going to do with himself during those years? Farming is an unskilled trade, so it's not like his abilities are in demand. There are no high paying factories hiring unskilled labor in America anymore, so that option is out. There's really just minimum wage McDonalds and WalMart. Even other farms pay their workers minimum wage.
You've got a point, but there are other social programs that they can access. It's not like they have no chance.
author=Dyhalto
At least with that "rent", the farmer has options with his non-farming time. Schooling, supplement a part time job, whatever.
Besides. It's only $20 billion/year (your figure). That's chicken feed.
Pardon the pun.
$2 billion a year. I said it goes up to $20 billion by the time the ten year contracts expire.
When we have multiple instances of billions of dollars being tossed out, it doesn't help our economic system.
author=mawkI never said it was a sign of prosperity or excess. I just said people weren't dying left and right over mass starvation.you get that these aren't mutually exclusive, right? that in many cases obesity is actually a stage in the process of starvation?
Our poor in this country have it so bad. That's why the Amercican standard of living is higher than Europe's standards for not just the poor, but the average citizen. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/06/01/astonishing-numbers-americas-poor-still-live-better-than-most-of-the-rest-of-humanity/
author=mawk
do libertarians live in a surreal fantasy dimension or are you just naturally this out-of-touch
How much more should we spend on the welfare system? I gave you the numbers.
author=Davenport
That does not make any sense. Where is the evidence?
What doesn't make sense? My claim on taxing the rich at 100% wouldn't cover the costs of running this nation?
If this isn't what you're talking about, clarify and I'll answer you.
author=DarklordKeinor
No it isn't a coincidence. The political leaders were disturbed at the time that someone would run for office for more than 2 terms, which had been a tradition prior to FDR; hence the enactment of the 22nd amendment.
Where'd you dig that drivel up? It doesn't even qualify as an excuse, let alone a reason.
FDR was the most pro-populist, anti-oligarchical president the USA ever had. He was so popular that he was the only one elected to a third term, despite it "being a tradition prior to FDR." Since there are more puppets and bad politicians to throw money at than good ones, term limits make sense if you're a minority banker/industrialist afraid of a resurgence of powerful presidencies.
author=DarklordKeinor
It starts with budgeting. We need to quit spending more than we are taking in. As for departments, one would have to go through with a fine tooth and comb and start determining what can go and what actions should be taken to reform the departments.
Yes, let's cut more public sector jobs and increase the unemployed. Bigger bread lines and a deflationary crash will hopefully jump start a healthy economy, except that since the budget will still be running a deficit because you've decreased revenue from the income and sales taxes, you'll have to raise taxes on other sectors and suffocate the economy even more.
Unfortunately, the solution lies in the US spending much more money. Trillions, even.
It just needs to direct that cash flow at productive investments like public infrastructure and protecting the labor force. If you interpret that as "roads to nowhere" and "paying the lazy to do nothing" then you are in serious need of a proper education in economic theory.
author=DarklordKeinor
You've got a point, but there are other social programs that they can access. It's not like they have no chance.
What social programs? Can you name any?
Farmers aren't eligible for unemployment insurance, and it only lasts 99 weeks anyway. Food stamps, used sparingly, will provide you 1 week's food for for each monthly payment (and Ron Paul wanted to cut that by 62%). Clinton destroyed welfare when he replaced AFDC with TANF.
I'm hazarding a guess that you're not actually trying to prove a point here. You're just dodging the issue with a vague "there are other programs".
Besides.
$2 billion a year. I said it goes up to $20 billion by the time the ten year contracts expire.
This is so pathetic.
That figure is so miniscule, so microscopic, so infinitesimal, that I can't even make the analogy "cut morning coffee to make mortgage payments". It's not even chump change. It's not even pennies to a hundred dollar bill.


















