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WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A (GOOD) STORY? (IN A VIDEO GAME)
Posts
ricifidi
30
ricifidi
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Close For me, the main interest is in the characters. As long that there is humor or conflict that makes you laugh or worry about them, chances are i'll keep playing.
Another good point to caught my interest is the world, (i'm talking about amateur rpgmaker games here), if it is deeply crafted, and you have the chance to explore it, i'll jump in. Even if the main plot sucks.
Another good point to caught my interest is the world, (i'm talking about amateur rpgmaker games here), if it is deeply crafted, and you have the chance to explore it, i'll jump in. Even if the main plot sucks.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I'm gonna be a dissenter and say that character isn't necessarily the most important part of a game's writing. It's darn important, especially in RPGs, because the character is normally central to the action, but in making games, there's often a focus on story and development separate from gameplay. (Something I feel is a problem in a lot of Final Fantasy games, where there's long, often tedious periods of cutscene chained together with gameplay.)
I feel that the most important aspect of good game writing is properly integrating the story with the game itself. A well-told video game story advances the plot not just with dialog boxes or cutscenes, but with the gameplay and setting. At the most extreme end, a well-written game can tell you a story without using any dialog or description at all.
I feel that the most important aspect of good game writing is properly integrating the story with the game itself. A well-told video game story advances the plot not just with dialog boxes or cutscenes, but with the gameplay and setting. At the most extreme end, a well-written game can tell you a story without using any dialog or description at all.
I like how Illusion of Gaia is on the lowest end of the spectrum. I really didn't like that game, and the stupid vampire boss was the last freaking straw (not to mention the LIMITED HEALING ITEMS that can never be replenished)
Don't hate the game 'cause you suck at it, bro. =B
I don't mind Illusion of Gaia appearing to the right on that list, after all it's an old game. But I find it appalling that it's at the very bottom AND below Golden Sun... I mean, Golden Sun is nothing but your typical "We must
Now, Illusion of Gaia is a diamond in the rough. Imagine setting to discover the world with your childhood friends. Getting to know different places, their people, their customs, etc. Imagine that at every steep something new and fascinating, or scary, or thought-provoking happens. Out of the top of my head: you get stranded at sea and nearly starve to death, then one of your friend dies, another risk his life to end a slave operation, other two fall in love and decide to give-up adventuring to settle down, your pet pig sacrifices itself to feed a starving village, and then you go and save the world in more than the material way... This game is like, deep, man! At least for its time.
_
Uh, and don't even get me started on Xenosaga and all that rubbish ahead of it... Final Fantasy? Dragon Quest? What is all that!???
Strong causality is a non-negotiable.
Causality (atleast, what I think it means for the context), = what causes what, in the sense of the plot.
weak causality = luck, random, accidents. "stumbling" across the magic book spurs the narrative.
strong causality = the plot being directed by willful characters who take control of their fate. The narrative makes a logical progression.
-----
I also have a love-hate relationship with plot-twists. I think it is the hallmark of the amateur writer to try and bedazzle the audience with constant zany twists that offer nothing to either continuity or causality.
Causality (atleast, what I think it means for the context), = what causes what, in the sense of the plot.
weak causality = luck, random, accidents. "stumbling" across the magic book spurs the narrative.
strong causality = the plot being directed by willful characters who take control of their fate. The narrative makes a logical progression.
-----
I also have a love-hate relationship with plot-twists. I think it is the hallmark of the amateur writer to try and bedazzle the audience with constant zany twists that offer nothing to either continuity or causality.
author=alterego
Now, Illusion of Gaia is a diamond in the rough. Imagine setting to discover the world with your childhood friends. Getting to know different places, their people, their customs, etc. Imagine that at every steep something new and fascinating, or scary, or thought-provoking happens. Out of the top of my head: you get stranded at sea and nearly starve to death, then one of your friend dies, another risk his life to end a slave operation, other two fall in love and decide to give-up adventuring to settle down, your pet pig sacrifices itself to feed a starving village, and then you go and save the world in more than the material way... This game is like, deep, man. At least for its time.
Yeah, when I first played Illusion of Gaia, I found the world and environments fascinating and subtly unsettling for a game of the time (and yeah, it gets less subtle as you go along.) I won't hail it as the best game ever, but I have to agree about it being more than it seems.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=PhantomLimb
Strong causality is a non-negotiable.
Causality (atleast, what I think it means for the context), = what causes what, in the sense of the plot.
weak causality = luck, random, accidents. "stumbling" across the magic book spurs the narrative.
strong causality = the plot being directed by willful characters who take control of their fate. The narrative makes a logical progression.
I've seen that expressed as
"This happens, then this happens, then this happens"
versus
"This happens, so this happens, so this happens,"
which I think is a pretty good way of summing it up. Events should lead fairly naturally to one another, so the audience can trace it all easily.
Crystalgate
694
author=Sooz
I've seen that expressed as
"This happens, then this happens, then this happens"
versus
"This happens, so this happens, so this happens,"
which I think is a pretty good way of summing it up. Events should lead fairly naturally to one another, so the audience can trace it all easily.
Alternatively, the game is set up so that events at first looks like it's the former, but once the player gets access to more information, it turns out that it was the latter that was going on all the time.
Anyway, I tend to prioritize likable characters. A good cast can carry most of the story by themselves. When it comes to what characters I like, I'm a characterization over character development kind of person. It's not as important to me that they have a in dept development as it is that they have good characterization. Further, they don't have to be good people, some of the characters I find the most annoying are in face very well-meaning, they just have to be good characters. Generally, they have to be good at whatever role they are supposed to play.
When it comes to plot, I prefer it making sense over it being complicated. I do not want a mess like Chrono Cross. Once I've beaten a game and look back on the story, every character's actions need to line up with their situation and personality. Nobody should ever do anything because the story demands it. If you have to write a very simple story to handle that, then I'd prefer if you do so. A simple story that makes sense is better than an epic story full of plot twists, but also full of plot holes.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Crystalgate
Alternatively, the game is set up so that events at first looks like it's the former, but once the player gets access to more information, it turns out that it was the latter that was going on all the time.
I tend to disagree, unless you mean very early on, since otherwise it can make the player feel like the game's really disjointed and quit playing (unless there's really fun gameplay to make up for it). Major events should seem obviously connected in the narrative.
Realistic characters, or at least characters with sensible mindsets and willingness to do socially/morally favorable things, even if it goes against their personal standards. I don't hate stories with black/white morality conflict, as they can be done right, but I'm generally more of a grey/grey and grey/black type, though those have a tendency to be ham-fisted/done wrong too (gruff anti-heroes with little in the way of morality don't strike me as overly shocking nowadays).
A plot that's, at the very least, comprehensible and refreshing instead of typical 'save the world' junk, with complex events thrown in to retain player interest. Of course, a 'save the world' plot can be done right as well; just make it interesting.
The bottom line is, I'm not overly picky, but just offer something fresh when presenting me the story and cast instead of childish/overdone bullshit.
A plot that's, at the very least, comprehensible and refreshing instead of typical 'save the world' junk, with complex events thrown in to retain player interest. Of course, a 'save the world' plot can be done right as well; just make it interesting.
The bottom line is, I'm not overly picky, but just offer something fresh when presenting me the story and cast instead of childish/overdone bullshit.
Desertopa
775
author=Soozauthor=CrystalgateI tend to disagree, unless you mean very early on, since otherwise it can make the player feel like the game's really disjointed and quit playing (unless there's really fun gameplay to make up for it). Major events should seem obviously connected in the narrative.
Alternatively, the game is set up so that events at first looks like it's the former, but once the player gets access to more information, it turns out that it was the latter that was going on all the time.
I'd agree that this works best when applied at the very beginning of a narrative, but when done well, I think it can be a very effective technique for engaging the audience. Show some dramatic event to draw in the viewer's interest, and then transition to a different context whose relation to the first scene is unknown to the audience. It focuses the audience's attention, and then gives them a mystery to fixate on; they know that the first scene has relevance to the rest of the narrative, and they have to keep playing to find out what it is. The opening of Xenogears is a good example of this technique (although Xenogears' standing quality-wise is... contentious, I have a big soft spot for it, personally.)
There are other ways you can play around with this sort of technique. One story I'm planning to use in a game project eventually involves a Distant Prologue which appears to have a direct relationship to the conflict which is taking place as of the beginning of the story, but much later on, is revealed not to, and its actual significance lies in how it reframes the moral context of the conflict.
Rather than following a hard rule that Scene A should result in Scene B, which Results in Scene C, etc., I'd suggest that the fundamental form should be that the audience has a reason to care about every scene, both as it happens, and later in retrospect over the course of the narrative. If the scene engages the audience's interest at the time, but later they start asking "what was the point of that then?" then the writer did something wrong, and if the scene foreshadows some clever twist or highlights a major theme or something, but the audience isn't actually engaged when it's happening, then again, the writer did something wrong.
A good foundation for the story is absolutely necessary. It's the reason the Role-Playing Game is happening at all. It's boring to role-play a person doing menial chores—we get enough of that in real life.
The conclusion must be equally stunning. There must be a sense of purpose and urgency throughout the game in order to drive the player.
Finally, an interesting setting is the medium by which the story presents itself to the reader. Human beings tend to hunt after common goals throughout history, so the setting can give the final push for the story to be unique.
When a unique setting and a grave story combine forces and depend on each other, this is what makes a story interesting to a human being.
The conclusion must be equally stunning. There must be a sense of purpose and urgency throughout the game in order to drive the player.
Finally, an interesting setting is the medium by which the story presents itself to the reader. Human beings tend to hunt after common goals throughout history, so the setting can give the final push for the story to be unique.
When a unique setting and a grave story combine forces and depend on each other, this is what makes a story interesting to a human being.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Desertopa
I'd agree that this works best when applied at the very beginning of a narrative, but when done well, I think it can be a very effective technique for engaging the audience.
When done well, just about any writing guideline can be tossed aside. I just figure that if someone is soliciting writing advice "here's some guidelines" is more useful advice than "if you do it well, you can forget all the rules!"
As a writer gets more skilled, they naturally figure out that they can break a rule or two, once they get why the rule was there in the first place. If you start an unskilled writer on the "no rules needed" stage, they just kind of fall apart and make crap.
Shinan
4314
I like environmental and implied storytelling in games. Mostly because actual games writing tend to be bad but implied games writing tend to be very interesting. For example when exploring a location a lot can be said about it by the way things are scattered around or how it is built. In Fallout: New Vegas I remember there being loads of (mostly) abandoned caves and places with various scrap in them that all told a very interesting implied story.
Similarly in Left 4 Dead 2 there's loads of environmental storytelling in the setup up quarantine zones and scribbles on walls and other similar things that tell an engaging implied story.
Even games with a decent plot often employ environmental storytelling to great effect. Spec Ops: The Line used the buried Dubai and leftovers of survivors to tell a great story. Gone Home had a lot of interesting tidbits to be found within the environment while you explored the main plot.
I also like emergent storytelling in games but I guess that just doesn't count at all.
Similarly in Left 4 Dead 2 there's loads of environmental storytelling in the setup up quarantine zones and scribbles on walls and other similar things that tell an engaging implied story.
Even games with a decent plot often employ environmental storytelling to great effect. Spec Ops: The Line used the buried Dubai and leftovers of survivors to tell a great story. Gone Home had a lot of interesting tidbits to be found within the environment while you explored the main plot.
I also like emergent storytelling in games but I guess that just doesn't count at all.
sliding scale of subjectivity
objective =========================================================== subjective
carl sagan --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- this topic
i like xenosaga 3
objective =========================================================== subjective
carl sagan --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- this topic
i like xenosaga 3
Housekeeping
3571
Craze, I love your ideas on gameplay mechanics, but you've got really terrible taste when it comes to writing. Saying storytelling is completely subjective would be like if I came into a gameplay thread and said, "Look, I don't get why you guys are talking crap about Bubsy 3D. Yeah, it's not like you need a PhD in game theory to appreciate it, but it gets the job done, and, personally, I had a lot of fun with it."
There's a level of subjectivity involved with the kinds of stories that we seek out and enjoy, but there's also an objective standard of craftsmanship for a good story. Games are largely terrible at making characters that connect with people on an intimate level, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to correct that. It's good to see topics like these pop up, and running with the theory that storytelling is subjective is reductive and toxic. It's the easy way out, and it's a guaranteed way to keep your stories mostly uninteresting.
There's a level of subjectivity involved with the kinds of stories that we seek out and enjoy, but there's also an objective standard of craftsmanship for a good story. Games are largely terrible at making characters that connect with people on an intimate level, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to correct that. It's good to see topics like these pop up, and running with the theory that storytelling is subjective is reductive and toxic. It's the easy way out, and it's a guaranteed way to keep your stories mostly uninteresting.
i was making fun of that awful post on the first page with the sliding scale of storytelling. it's awful. worse than my terrible taste
which is the only post i've read in this topic besides yours
also yes that terrible taste is dicks. just pure dicks. my writing taste is dicks. i happen to like dicks but apparently you do not
semi-serious post re: topic:
games should be fun. if you are trying to hard to get an emotional connection through your writing then you're forgetting that maybe you should make a game
gam mak is an art medium that is not writing novels or screenplays. do you think people would like the last of us or feel as moved by it if they only saw the cutscenes but did not actually play through the game itself?
if "personally i had a lot of fun with it" is what you say to bubsy 3d then you are the winner. the game won. it made you feel like you were having fun. success! if you think that amensia the dark descent is fun because you got scared at the right times then wow, that's great, the game won. success! if dragon quest I made you feel awesome about killing the dragon wizard then the game won right alongside you. success!
writing is unimportant. the difference between xenosaga 1/2 being horrible games and xenosaga 3 being a terrific game has to do a lot with the presentation and timing of cutscenes, the dungeon settings themselves, and the great music. xs1/2 are plodding and boring and clunky. xs3 is fast-paced, uses its scenarios mixed with presentation wisely, and makes the game fun. the game won. success!
saying mother 3 > ff6 > dq > xenosaga > golden sun is useless and that's what my post was mocking because it's so incredibly subjective as to be almost offensively moronic
good day, dick-hater
edit: actually no fuck you
http://rpgmaker.net/games/3819/
http://rpgmaker.net/games/2035/
which is the only post i've read in this topic besides yours
also yes that terrible taste is dicks. just pure dicks. my writing taste is dicks. i happen to like dicks but apparently you do not
semi-serious post re: topic:
games should be fun. if you are trying to hard to get an emotional connection through your writing then you're forgetting that maybe you should make a game
gam mak is an art medium that is not writing novels or screenplays. do you think people would like the last of us or feel as moved by it if they only saw the cutscenes but did not actually play through the game itself?
if "personally i had a lot of fun with it" is what you say to bubsy 3d then you are the winner. the game won. it made you feel like you were having fun. success! if you think that amensia the dark descent is fun because you got scared at the right times then wow, that's great, the game won. success! if dragon quest I made you feel awesome about killing the dragon wizard then the game won right alongside you. success!
writing is unimportant. the difference between xenosaga 1/2 being horrible games and xenosaga 3 being a terrific game has to do a lot with the presentation and timing of cutscenes, the dungeon settings themselves, and the great music. xs1/2 are plodding and boring and clunky. xs3 is fast-paced, uses its scenarios mixed with presentation wisely, and makes the game fun. the game won. success!
saying mother 3 > ff6 > dq > xenosaga > golden sun is useless and that's what my post was mocking because it's so incredibly subjective as to be almost offensively moronic
good day, dick-hater
edit: actually no fuck you
http://rpgmaker.net/games/3819/
http://rpgmaker.net/games/2035/
Desertopa
775
author=Soozauthor=DesertopaWhen done well, just about any writing guideline can be tossed aside. I just figure that if someone is soliciting writing advice "here's some guidelines" is more useful advice than "if you do it well, you can forget all the rules!"
I'd agree that this works best when applied at the very beginning of a narrative, but when done well, I think it can be a very effective technique for engaging the audience.
As a writer gets more skilled, they naturally figure out that they can break a rule or two, once they get why the rule was there in the first place. If you start an unskilled writer on the "no rules needed" stage, they just kind of fall apart and make crap.
I don't think any writer ever really hits a "no rules needed" stage, so much as they start to grasp the more fundamental rules, of which the more surface level guidelines that they're usually taught starting out are simply approximations. Sticking to the more fundamental rules is usually easier when you follow the guidelines (otherwise they wouldn't have been codified as guidelines in the first place,) but I think that it can sometimes be helpful for learning writers to delve into the more fundamental rules a bit so they can get a sense of what they're aiming for.
Housekeeping
3571
Yes, Craze, games should be fun (actually, this is debatable, but I want to make fun games, too, so I won't contest this), but you'd have to be delusional to not see them as a storytelling medium, too.
Writing novels is a medium with only one dimension. Game making is a collaborative medium that involves game design, graphics, music/sound design, and writing. It's a complex art form with several aspects, and if you brush off one or more of them, your game isn't going to be as good as it could be. Yes, many genres function with less storytelling than others, but RPGs are a story-forward genre.
The reason I insulted your sensibilities is because you don't seem to put much thought into the writing process, and writing is something that takes a considerable amount of thought and experience in order to be effective. I understand why you got offended--you put a part of yourself out there when you write a story--but I want you to understand that completely devaluing storytelling is offensive to me, too, as I've spent a lot of time thinking about what makes a story effective.
The only reason that earlier post's sliding scale of good game story lines is subjective is because that guy didn't explain his post. It's not difficult to see that Mother 3's clever plot, heartfelt, nuanced characters, and well-balanced dialogue are leagues above Golden Sun's stock characters, mundane plot, and primarily expository dialogue. All I'm saying is that there's objective criteria to good storytelling, and a discussion of storytelling on an RPG forum isn't something that should be so quickly shrugged off.
Writing novels is a medium with only one dimension. Game making is a collaborative medium that involves game design, graphics, music/sound design, and writing. It's a complex art form with several aspects, and if you brush off one or more of them, your game isn't going to be as good as it could be. Yes, many genres function with less storytelling than others, but RPGs are a story-forward genre.
The reason I insulted your sensibilities is because you don't seem to put much thought into the writing process, and writing is something that takes a considerable amount of thought and experience in order to be effective. I understand why you got offended--you put a part of yourself out there when you write a story--but I want you to understand that completely devaluing storytelling is offensive to me, too, as I've spent a lot of time thinking about what makes a story effective.
The only reason that earlier post's sliding scale of good game story lines is subjective is because that guy didn't explain his post. It's not difficult to see that Mother 3's clever plot, heartfelt, nuanced characters, and well-balanced dialogue are leagues above Golden Sun's stock characters, mundane plot, and primarily expository dialogue. All I'm saying is that there's objective criteria to good storytelling, and a discussion of storytelling on an RPG forum isn't something that should be so quickly shrugged off.
i stopped reading your post after the first paragraph because you apparently think i don't think that games are a storytelling and/or art medium so
>exuent topic, chased by bear
>exuent topic, chased by bear
Housekeeping
3571
author=Craze
i stopped reading your post after the first paragraph because you apparently think i don't think that games are a storytelling and/or art medium so
>exuent topic, chased by bear
I wonder where I got that idea.
author=Craze
writing is unimportant.
