Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
DUNGEON DESIGNS: THE GOOD AND BAD
Posts
Pages:
1
Xenomic
1752
Xenomic
View playlists
CloseNote, this doesn't just pertain to RPGs. This also pertains to action/adventure, platforming, puzzle, etc. games.
So, I'm here to talk about the various designs of dungeons. That's pretty much it! Since I've been reworking a dungeon of mine (and have yet another dungeon to remake), I've been thinking of what would be good to do with them in terms of design and puzzles. As you all may know, I am NOT the best mapper out there despite me working on 2k3 for 5-6 years (and even worse with puzzles), so making a good dungeon is kinda hard for me to a degree. So, I've been looking at various games (well, remembering some as well), and thinking of what would be good ideas and bad ideas.
Note that this is going to not be super long and probably very, very limited due to not thinking atm. So expect my opinions/thoughts to be rather dull and dreary. But it's not mostly about me anyways, I'd like to hear what you guys have to say too.
Good Dungeons:
Magus's Castle (Chrono Trigger): It's a long dungeon, yeah, but it's a very plot-important, pivotal dungeon of the game. And it's not super annoying to navigate, nor are the puzzles or gimmicks that bad. I rather liked the save point gimmick (it's not like it was difficult to get through those, but nonetheless), the enemy gauntlet was neat (and easy to skip past), and it was super difficult either.
Temples (Final Fantasy X): I'll admit, the temples DO feel like they take forever to get through (especially when you want to get the hidden treasures), but in the end, I really think the puzzles they provide are really well done for the most part. They use the spheres really well and change up the puzzles enough that each one is unique enough from the other. And the Zanarkand puzzle is kinda fun in a way too. It's like playing Simon Says! Though they are rather drab to look at...
Besaid (Final Fantasy X/X-2): Besaid? Why do I say this is a good dungeon? Well...not so much about dungeon as mapping itself. While there's no actual gimmicks or challenge, the maps themselves are really, really beautiful. I know this is due to it being a 3D game and all, but compared to a lot of the other areas in the game, it just feels like it's the most beautiful area in the game. Just...something about it sticks out. I guess you could say Kilika is the same in a way in that regards (as again, opposed to the temples which are dreary as hell). Macalania Woods falls into this category as well.
Bad Dungeons:
Cave of Shadows (Final Fantasy III): Normally, I have no issues with hidden paths, and I know my game uses them (in one such area, which is going to be scrapped and redone, it's REQUIRED to move on with the game), but when the entirety of a dungeon revolves using hidden passages to get to where you need to go, with no real way of knowing which way you have to go and forcing you to brute force your way through? Not particularly a good gameplay design. Add into the fact that the enemies, while the multiplying effect is kinda neat, just make the dungeon even MORE annoying to get through (moreso in the NES version than DS version), the dungeon comes off as just...unfun.
(In retrospect, I can't think of ANY dungeons in FFII or FFIII that were particularly good...)
Pharos at Ridorana (Final Fantasy XII): This dungeon...at first I kinda liked it. Kinda...until it started throwing some annoying gimmicks in there (find the right teleporter! Guess wrong? You get to fight all these enemies that like to inflict a bajillion statuses all at once! Hope you have the MP and items to deal with them!), and it just felt like it dragged on and on and on and on...and at that point in the game, the bosses were pretty much jokes.
Great Crystal (Final Fantasy XII): This. Freaking. Dungeon. I do believe it goes without saying that this is probably one of the worst "maze" dungeons in any game I've played. I mean...it wouldn't be so bad if the map wasn't a piece of garbage in that area. Except you can't really use the map and unless you know EXACTLY where everything is (good luck remembering that), you're going to get lost all the time. Add to that that you have to activate gates and GET to said gates in X amount of time (time does still run in fights, and the fights aren't exactly easy either), and you got yourself a very frustrating dungeon. Made even MORE frustrating when you have to go back to this place to find a Mark and/or fight Ultima. Just...fawk this dungeon...
Those are just some examples from me. I could've went into non-FF games (Legend of Zelda, Super Mario RPG, Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile, etc.), but I'll keep it to a minimum for now. Don't want to rant all day and whatnot!
But yes, what do you guys find to be really good dungeons and maps? Whether it be in terms of how the map looks, the puzzles, etc.? Perhaps ya'll can even give me good ideas for dungeon and map designs! ^^
So, I'm here to talk about the various designs of dungeons. That's pretty much it! Since I've been reworking a dungeon of mine (and have yet another dungeon to remake), I've been thinking of what would be good to do with them in terms of design and puzzles. As you all may know, I am NOT the best mapper out there despite me working on 2k3 for 5-6 years (and even worse with puzzles), so making a good dungeon is kinda hard for me to a degree. So, I've been looking at various games (well, remembering some as well), and thinking of what would be good ideas and bad ideas.
Note that this is going to not be super long and probably very, very limited due to not thinking atm. So expect my opinions/thoughts to be rather dull and dreary. But it's not mostly about me anyways, I'd like to hear what you guys have to say too.
Good Dungeons:
Magus's Castle (Chrono Trigger): It's a long dungeon, yeah, but it's a very plot-important, pivotal dungeon of the game. And it's not super annoying to navigate, nor are the puzzles or gimmicks that bad. I rather liked the save point gimmick (it's not like it was difficult to get through those, but nonetheless), the enemy gauntlet was neat (and easy to skip past), and it was super difficult either.
Temples (Final Fantasy X): I'll admit, the temples DO feel like they take forever to get through (especially when you want to get the hidden treasures), but in the end, I really think the puzzles they provide are really well done for the most part. They use the spheres really well and change up the puzzles enough that each one is unique enough from the other. And the Zanarkand puzzle is kinda fun in a way too. It's like playing Simon Says! Though they are rather drab to look at...
Besaid (Final Fantasy X/X-2): Besaid? Why do I say this is a good dungeon? Well...not so much about dungeon as mapping itself. While there's no actual gimmicks or challenge, the maps themselves are really, really beautiful. I know this is due to it being a 3D game and all, but compared to a lot of the other areas in the game, it just feels like it's the most beautiful area in the game. Just...something about it sticks out. I guess you could say Kilika is the same in a way in that regards (as again, opposed to the temples which are dreary as hell). Macalania Woods falls into this category as well.
Bad Dungeons:
Cave of Shadows (Final Fantasy III): Normally, I have no issues with hidden paths, and I know my game uses them (in one such area, which is going to be scrapped and redone, it's REQUIRED to move on with the game), but when the entirety of a dungeon revolves using hidden passages to get to where you need to go, with no real way of knowing which way you have to go and forcing you to brute force your way through? Not particularly a good gameplay design. Add into the fact that the enemies, while the multiplying effect is kinda neat, just make the dungeon even MORE annoying to get through (moreso in the NES version than DS version), the dungeon comes off as just...unfun.
(In retrospect, I can't think of ANY dungeons in FFII or FFIII that were particularly good...)
Pharos at Ridorana (Final Fantasy XII): This dungeon...at first I kinda liked it. Kinda...until it started throwing some annoying gimmicks in there (find the right teleporter! Guess wrong? You get to fight all these enemies that like to inflict a bajillion statuses all at once! Hope you have the MP and items to deal with them!), and it just felt like it dragged on and on and on and on...and at that point in the game, the bosses were pretty much jokes.
Great Crystal (Final Fantasy XII): This. Freaking. Dungeon. I do believe it goes without saying that this is probably one of the worst "maze" dungeons in any game I've played. I mean...it wouldn't be so bad if the map wasn't a piece of garbage in that area. Except you can't really use the map and unless you know EXACTLY where everything is (good luck remembering that), you're going to get lost all the time. Add to that that you have to activate gates and GET to said gates in X amount of time (time does still run in fights, and the fights aren't exactly easy either), and you got yourself a very frustrating dungeon. Made even MORE frustrating when you have to go back to this place to find a Mark and/or fight Ultima. Just...fawk this dungeon...
Those are just some examples from me. I could've went into non-FF games (Legend of Zelda, Super Mario RPG, Chrono Trigger, Valkyrie Profile, etc.), but I'll keep it to a minimum for now. Don't want to rant all day and whatnot!
But yes, what do you guys find to be really good dungeons and maps? Whether it be in terms of how the map looks, the puzzles, etc.? Perhaps ya'll can even give me good ideas for dungeon and map designs! ^^
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
So you've touched on an extremely basic idea here... one that I continue to be astonished when professional game designers fail to think about.
Good idea: Making obstacles that players can figure out how to overcome through observation or cleverness.
Bad idea: Making obstacles that players can only overcome by guessing every option until they find the right one.
Now that you understand this... perhaps you can apply it?
Making puzzles be solvable through observation is naturally much simpler than making them solvable through cleverness. Instead of trying to figure out how to get the player to figure something out, and find a way to lead their mind down the right path without making things too obvious... you just have to show them the solution and see how long it takes them to notice that you did so.
Despite the topic title you didn't talk about mapping at all. This is probably good because you really just need to listen about mapping. Especially indoor mapping. Someone please talk at this man about mapping.
Good idea: Making obstacles that players can figure out how to overcome through observation or cleverness.
Bad idea: Making obstacles that players can only overcome by guessing every option until they find the right one.
Now that you understand this... perhaps you can apply it?
Making puzzles be solvable through observation is naturally much simpler than making them solvable through cleverness. Instead of trying to figure out how to get the player to figure something out, and find a way to lead their mind down the right path without making things too obvious... you just have to show them the solution and see how long it takes them to notice that you did so.
Despite the topic title you didn't talk about mapping at all. This is probably good because you really just need to listen about mapping. Especially indoor mapping. Someone please talk at this man about mapping.
Xenomic
1752
Well, considering that my mapping skills are kinda bad (namely indoor mapping), I don't have any right to really speak on that lol. I don't think my outdoor mapping is THAT terrible myself, but that's me. ^^;;
Hmmm...so something like "Room A on the left has 8 treasure chests, opened and closed in a pattern, and Room B has 8 treasure chests, all closed and is on the opposite side" (which to solve you obviously take Room A's chests and then apply to Room B, only as a mirror image) would qualify as "Good", correct? While having something like "You have 20 doors, but none of them lead onwards and the right path is on a hidden path near the entrance" (I wonder who did that...) is obviously "Bad". So something like Legend of Zelda does it well enough (it kinda has to for the most part), while something like the Final Fantasy series tends to not do it as well (I'm looking at you FFVIII Art Gallery puzzle!!!)?
Hmmm...so something like "Room A on the left has 8 treasure chests, opened and closed in a pattern, and Room B has 8 treasure chests, all closed and is on the opposite side" (which to solve you obviously take Room A's chests and then apply to Room B, only as a mirror image) would qualify as "Good", correct? While having something like "You have 20 doors, but none of them lead onwards and the right path is on a hidden path near the entrance" (I wonder who did that...) is obviously "Bad". So something like Legend of Zelda does it well enough (it kinda has to for the most part), while something like the Final Fantasy series tends to not do it as well (I'm looking at you FFVIII Art Gallery puzzle!!!)?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Frankly I feel like most dungeon puzzles in RPGs that are as lame as the one in the video above could just be removed without any negative impact on the gameplay. But a lot of people would argue they're better than nothing. They make stupid people feel smart, I suppose.
Can this topic just be "dungeon puzzles"? Because "dungeon and map design" is ridiculously general. It's like making a topic called "Gameplay: what is good and what isn't?" Oh my lord.
Can this topic just be "dungeon puzzles"? Because "dungeon and map design" is ridiculously general. It's like making a topic called "Gameplay: what is good and what isn't?" Oh my lord.
Xenomic
1752
Sure, why not? Took me a bit to find the way to edit the topic title for some reason. >_>;;
There's some that's just outright not cool though (like I mentioned with Great Crystal and Cave of Shadows, as well as the Art Gallery in Ultimecia's Castle, though there's a couple other things in that dungeon that were pretty lame. I know there's even more out there, I just can't think of them right now), and COULD just be tossed out or, ya know, done better than they were. I don't even think there were any hints on how to do the Catoblepas puzzle (the one with the 4 chests that you had to get all opened) and you had to brute force that one entirely...
There's some that's just outright not cool though (like I mentioned with Great Crystal and Cave of Shadows, as well as the Art Gallery in Ultimecia's Castle, though there's a couple other things in that dungeon that were pretty lame. I know there's even more out there, I just can't think of them right now), and COULD just be tossed out or, ya know, done better than they were. I don't even think there were any hints on how to do the Catoblepas puzzle (the one with the 4 chests that you had to get all opened) and you had to brute force that one entirely...
RyaReisender
200
My personal favorite dungeon design is the dungeon design in Phantasy Star II. That is because it's an actual challenge to find the right way. There are so many different paths and loops and you have to explore a lot to figure out the rules of the dungeon. Yet they still make physically sense, if you take a teleporter up or down, you will end up at the same coordinates just on another floor.
Most other dungeon designs are boring for me because it's basically impossible to get lost. It's just a linear path with occasional branches and the wrong branch usually leads to a dead end with a treasure chest.
As for puzzles I really don't like them most of the time, but that's because they are really boring. Like pushing blocks and stuff. There are also clever and interesting puzzles incooperated into the dungeon theme sometimes. I do like those. (Generally, if I want good puzzles I rather play horror adventures rather than RPGs.)
If I had to name a puzzle-intensive dungeon design that I liked in an RPG: Legend of Grimrock (the whole dungeon).
Most other dungeon designs are boring for me because it's basically impossible to get lost. It's just a linear path with occasional branches and the wrong branch usually leads to a dead end with a treasure chest.
As for puzzles I really don't like them most of the time, but that's because they are really boring. Like pushing blocks and stuff. There are also clever and interesting puzzles incooperated into the dungeon theme sometimes. I do like those. (Generally, if I want good puzzles I rather play horror adventures rather than RPGs.)
If I had to name a puzzle-intensive dungeon design that I liked in an RPG: Legend of Grimrock (the whole dungeon).
My favorite dungeon designs are the ones that I can make and play without knowing the exit and perfect pathways.
author=Xenomic
Great Crystal (Final Fantasy XII): This. Freaking. Dungeon. I do believe it goes without saying that this is probably one of the worst "maze" dungeons in any game I've played. I mean...it wouldn't be so bad if the map wasn't a piece of garbage in that area. Except you can't really use the map and unless you know EXACTLY where everything is (good luck remembering that), you're going to get lost all the time. Add to that that you have to activate gates and GET to said gates in X amount of time (time does still run in fights, and the fights aren't exactly easy either), and you got yourself a very frustrating dungeon. Made even MORE frustrating when you have to go back to this place to find a Mark and/or fight Ultima. Just...fawk this dungeon...
Yeah, I remember it! GOD, I HATED THAT DUNGEON!
Final Fantasy Legend 2 had a massive cave that was extremely painful, long and battles every 2 steps. It was so tough and horrible they made it optional.
turkeyDawg
195
author=LockeZ
So you've touched on an extremely basic idea here... one that I continue to be astonished when professional game designers fail to think about.
Good idea: Making obstacles that players can figure out how to overcome through observation or cleverness.
Bad idea: Making obstacles that players can only overcome by guessing every option until they find the right one.
I think we can add a few more things to this list:
Bad idea: Puzzles that are "solved" by virtue of having but one option you could possibly do or think of.
Things like having a single box that's constricted to a single path leading directly to a single switch that opens a door five feet away from you. This happens a lot in "streamlined" games, too, since they're so obsessed with "directing the player" that they will very obviously cut off all but one of your options.
Bad idea: Making obstacles that are immediately overcome because you've overcome them a hundred times already.
Stuff like bombing cracked walls or putting out fire with ice/water. A lot of puzzle games do this too, where they have one very simple puzzle to demonstrate a concept, and then have a dozen variations of this concept, ignoring the fact that you'll probably know what the solution is immediately because you solved something like it just seven seconds ago.
Bad idea: "Puzzles" that are "solved" by pressing the Context-Sensitive Action Button.
Like Ice Path in Final Fantasy 9, where you walk up to an ice pillar, press X, watch a cutscene of Vivi torching it, then nabbing some treasure. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a puzzle, or what.
The most important things for a puzzle are to require more than one step in thinking, to follow a set of explained rules and logic, and to not go overboard in pointing things out to the player. You might want to consider seeking out dedicate puzzle games, rather than relying exclusively on the dungeons of various videogames.
I'm pretty sure these things happen in commercial games, not so much because they're not thinking about it, but because:
A) Time is money and quality design isn't; and
B) Too many gamers whine incessantly whenever anything provides a challenge.
Desertopa
775
author=Xenomic
Pharos at Ridorana (Final Fantasy XII): This dungeon...at first I kinda liked it. Kinda...until it started throwing some annoying gimmicks in there (find the right teleporter! Guess wrong? You get to fight all these enemies that like to inflict a bajillion statuses all at once! Hope you have the MP and items to deal with them!), and it just felt like it dragged on and on and on and on...and at that point in the game, the bosses were pretty much jokes.
Honestly, I enjoyed the Pharos. I'd been exploring all the optional content for a long time in that game, and it had been a long time since the main plot had thrown anything at me that approached a challenge. But if I hadn't been ahead of the level and equipment curve, it might have been pretty nasty, so it probably would have been better if it had been a bonus dungeon or something.
The Great Crystal, on the other hand, was just indecent.
author=turkeyDawg
Bad idea: Making obstacles that are immediately overcome because you've overcome them a hundred times already.
Stuff like bombing cracked walls or putting out fire with ice/water. A lot of puzzle games do this too, where they have one very simple puzzle to demonstrate a concept, and then have a dozen variations of this concept, ignoring the fact that you'll probably know what the solution is immediately because you solved something like it just seven seconds ago.
Bad idea: "Puzzles" that are "solved" by pressing the Context-Sensitive Action Button.
Like Ice Path in Final Fantasy 9, where you walk up to an ice pillar, press X, watch a cutscene of Vivi torching it, then nabbing some treasure. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a puzzle, or what.
Eh, I don't think these things are necessarily bad, just that they're not puzzles and shouldn't be expected to substitute for them. I think of them as being more like flavoring, something to see the player characters do besides run around and kill stuff, to make the physical process of dungeon exploration look less tedious. They can also provide some sort of justification for how the player characters might be uniquely qualified to navigate a dungeon; maybe they can do something that other people can't which lets them get past obstacles which would have barred other people.
turkeyDawg
195
Yeah, I only really called them "Bad" because they usually are a substitute for real puzzles, and usually repeated so often that they end up make things tedious anyways. Worst of all, a lot of reviewers and such will call these things actual puzzles. Some of them even call them good puzzles, presumably because they didn't actually puzzle them.
Xenomic
1752
@Desertopa: I was enjoying Pharos too until later on where it just got really tedious lol. I also did like every Mark and thing before moving on with the story, and even then the monsters were just ugh...and the puzzles were a bit annoying due to said monsters. >_<
Let's see...what else is there? OH! I KNOW!
Pick a Door, Any Door! (Final Fantasy II): Every. Goddamn. Dungeon. You know...I wouldn't be so annoyed if the encounter rate wasn't stupidly high (and in the NES/PSX versions, you're severely limited on items and resources anyways), and I wouldn't be so annoyed if there weren't SO MANY OF THEM IN ONE DUNGEON! I'm sure many would agree that this was just a bad design. Good for grinding if you need to? I suppose so, but really...it's just a time-waster and a half, and just overall annoying as hell.
Ultimecia's Castle (Final Fantasy VIII): This had some mixes of good and bad I feel. Usage of two separate parties was a pretty neat idea, but really wasn't used all that much as it could have been. It's used what...twice in the entire dungeon I think? Once to hold the chandalier up, and another for a scale puzzle (which was semi-annoying to deal with kinda)? Wish they did more with it honestly.
I think the one that hits me as the worst is the Art Gallery (as I think I mentioned before). Sure, there's that giant clock on the ground that's meant to help with solving the puzzle, but that doesn't make the puzzle any less annoying to deal with IMO (did the paintings even HAVE roman numerals on them? Or were the numerals in the painting titles themselves??). The Catoblepas puzzle with the 4 chests that have to be all opened, while it's not TOO terribly difficult to get through as you can simply brute force it, I feel is bad only because well...you can just simply brute force it. Can you really consider something a puzzle if that's the case??
I will say that, while it's kinda hard on the hands, the organ in the cathedral was kinda neat. Though the "puzzle" for Omega Weapon was not...not enough time to get everything set up man!
Pandaemonium (Final Fantasy IX): Ffffff this dungeon. It's a cool concept and all, but the elevator segment was waaaaaaay too annoying. Trying to get it to line up just right to go all the way up is one thing, but to line it up to get to specific platforms? Good luck with that! That's all I have to say about that.
Desert Palace (Final Fantasy IX): I kinda liked the idea behind this dungeon. Some puzzles required you to use the candles to continue on, but getting them all is well-worth the effort (and helps against the boss as well, which is a big plus). And it's not terribly dull, nor are the enemies too difficult to deal with. I think this is probably one of the better "puzzle dungeons" in the game myself. Although the part with Cid could've...been done a little better. MOVE FASTER CID!! >_<
Just some more opinions. I'm sure people will agree and disagree with these but...thought I'd toss these out. Why yes, my main RPG series is Final Fantasy, how did you know!? :O
Let's see...what else is there? OH! I KNOW!
Pick a Door, Any Door! (Final Fantasy II): Every. Goddamn. Dungeon. You know...I wouldn't be so annoyed if the encounter rate wasn't stupidly high (and in the NES/PSX versions, you're severely limited on items and resources anyways), and I wouldn't be so annoyed if there weren't SO MANY OF THEM IN ONE DUNGEON! I'm sure many would agree that this was just a bad design. Good for grinding if you need to? I suppose so, but really...it's just a time-waster and a half, and just overall annoying as hell.
Ultimecia's Castle (Final Fantasy VIII): This had some mixes of good and bad I feel. Usage of two separate parties was a pretty neat idea, but really wasn't used all that much as it could have been. It's used what...twice in the entire dungeon I think? Once to hold the chandalier up, and another for a scale puzzle (which was semi-annoying to deal with kinda)? Wish they did more with it honestly.
I think the one that hits me as the worst is the Art Gallery (as I think I mentioned before). Sure, there's that giant clock on the ground that's meant to help with solving the puzzle, but that doesn't make the puzzle any less annoying to deal with IMO (did the paintings even HAVE roman numerals on them? Or were the numerals in the painting titles themselves??). The Catoblepas puzzle with the 4 chests that have to be all opened, while it's not TOO terribly difficult to get through as you can simply brute force it, I feel is bad only because well...you can just simply brute force it. Can you really consider something a puzzle if that's the case??
I will say that, while it's kinda hard on the hands, the organ in the cathedral was kinda neat. Though the "puzzle" for Omega Weapon was not...not enough time to get everything set up man!
Pandaemonium (Final Fantasy IX): Ffffff this dungeon. It's a cool concept and all, but the elevator segment was waaaaaaay too annoying. Trying to get it to line up just right to go all the way up is one thing, but to line it up to get to specific platforms? Good luck with that! That's all I have to say about that.
Desert Palace (Final Fantasy IX): I kinda liked the idea behind this dungeon. Some puzzles required you to use the candles to continue on, but getting them all is well-worth the effort (and helps against the boss as well, which is a big plus). And it's not terribly dull, nor are the enemies too difficult to deal with. I think this is probably one of the better "puzzle dungeons" in the game myself. Although the part with Cid could've...been done a little better. MOVE FASTER CID!! >_<
Just some more opinions. I'm sure people will agree and disagree with these but...thought I'd toss these out. Why yes, my main RPG series is Final Fantasy, how did you know!? :O
Pages:
1
