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RPG BOSSES...

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Just a thought here, but it seems that every last boss in every RPG is UBER! powerd up...Its almost a untold rule of thumb that your last boss must be nearly unbeatable. I feel almost udderly forced to make all his stats maxed and his skills legendary in power. But how do you balance this...????


(I think ill let the discussion start here)
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
Ugh... this is a decent topic I guess.

Just don't inflate your stats. You can start in the single digits if you want. RM2k3, XP, and VX all have high stat parameters, you shouldn't need anymore than they give you.
It just seems to me that balance within these games is very underdiscussed...

Like, what is a decent exp chart, how fast should a character level up...when should they get new skills? We tlak about mapping and story. but never balance. And what about Hidden items and skills. Like super uber power weapons that you must go through a long PITA quest to obtian that totaly destroy everything. Or that one element that owns them all. These things can be used to force the player in planing there assualt on bosses rather than beefing stats and pummeling bosses with there strongest skill.

Anyone understand what i am saying! :o
balance isn't underdiscussed, but truth be told, those are all questions I don't think anyone can answer except you. Just play around until you find a way that works and makes the game fun, playable, and challenging. That's what I do and trust me, it works. That's most of the RPG making process right there.
People here talk about game balance a lot...

For the final boss the thing you really need to focus on is making the player actually have to try without just being stupid about it. So you're going to want to make the player use all of the skills they've learned throughout the game to the fullest extent. In a traditional RPG, the only skill the player learns is strategic planning, so you've just got to make them think. But you'll want to avoid JUST jacking up the stats if possible, because that's uninteresting and really just makes the player have to level up to win.

Ideally they should need a plan and be able to execute combos between characters and whatnot, rather than each character just using their best skill every single turn. Also, the "make the player do sidequests so that they have a chance of beating the boss" is usually a bad idea. Artificial game lengthening is ALWAYS a bad idea.
Thanks for the insight, i think there is at last a light down the tunnel...


Also, boss timing...Can it be, and when would it be to soon to introduce a major villian or boss. I mean side bosses dont realy matter, but the main bad guys. and such. ANy thoughts on this...


I think that the timing of a boss can be done in a few ways. One good way is to have the main villain disclosed off the bat so the whole purpose is to vanquish that one being (e.g. Legend of Zelda). Another is for there to be a general mission with the main foe being shrouded in mystery until the end(e.g.: Final Fantasy VIII). As for there being multiple major villains, you usually want only a few out at once, or if you only have a few, one or all (e.g.: Vandal Hearts. Had 4 main villains, but only 2 at a time)

Allow me to briefly explain my best boss introduction/creation ever.... though mind you it was in paper and dice D&D not RPG Maker (at least not yet).

About 5 minutes into the game, the main villain reveals himself. After a while, the party starts gathering various items and allies needed to defeat him while an unknown force works against them for this villain. Then, after years (in-game and out-game) of intense adventure and prep work, the great fight comes at last, only to end with a release of an even greater power, one that threatens the fabric of existence and hurls the party into an even greater adventure that continues to this day.

It may sound long and convoluted, but you don't argue witha game that is 6 years and still going strong. I guess that's a bit of a mix of them all, mystery, multiple, and from the start. Truthfully, the real determining factor on how early they are introduced is based on your story. In this case, the story was to defeat him, that's it. That's all they had purpose to do, so it made sense to introduce him early. Once the new vilain was introduced it was the same thing, just done differently. In a game like Vandal Hearts, you have to do other things before preparing for the villains, but the introduction isn't too late.

And now I am rambling and should stop.
Woot, this discussion is getting very...deep...


One more last tiny question...What make a great cutscene, diolouge, detail, emotion. SHould it be long and heartfelt. Or quick and to the point. Should there be many or few. Also what MAKES the cutscene worth wtaching. What gives a agem a "movie" feel.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16948
Game balance is tricky to pull off, but you don't have to max the final boss' stats just to make them difficult. I use stat charts for my monsters that I created by mimicking the stat balance of RPG Maker's most basic monster: slime. While that's worked very well for me, I'd have to completely rethink it if I was using 2K3 instead. I feel that the bigger the numbers get, the harder they are to manage.

As for pacing of big villains, well...I'm not so sure about that. Introducing them at the game's start can work well for motivation (so the player knows what they're up against and why). Having them make unexpected appearances can also be interesting. However, if you choose the path where the big bad isn't revealed until the very end, you may want to consider using foreshadowing of their efforts behind the scenes.

Now, about cutscenes, DON'T PUT LONG CUTSCENES BEFORE BOSS FIGHTS! NEVER EVER EVER!!! There's nothing worse than losing a tough battle after watching people talk for ten minutes. If you have to do this, then make a way to skip the cutscene before the fight. Or, even better, separate the two events and let the player save after the cutscene but before the fight so they can prepare better if they must.

Dialogue is what will make or break your cutscenes, but don't be overly dramatic with it. If you want an example of what not to do with dialogue, play Barkley Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden. This game shows what happens when you over-dramatize everything. I think the key to making a good cutscene involves both the things you said: detail/emotion along with quick/to the point. Don't mince words...say what must be said, and don't use too many frills. Above all with cutscenes, make sure the dialogue sounds natural, like something someone would actually say. If you're not sure about it, read what you wrote out loud and think of how it would sound if someone said it to you.

Hope that helps.
Well, i think thast all the insight anyone could get out of this, does anyone else agree. I am glad to have shared and learned much from this topic...Ill be looking forward to seeing you all next time on...


Ask and Listen.....
There is another method to approach this problem that has yet to be discussed. Why not give the players a weakness? The boss doesn't have to cover all the bases if the players aren't able to as well.

As an example I have one party that consists of a high physical damage however if he is dealing damage he can not use his spells that buff the party. Another character has just about every possible class and skill combo however he 'poofs' into them at random thus not being able to fully utilize everything at once. Also the de-buffer of the group has all the healing spells for the group so its a toss up as to what role they should play during a battle.

Since the fighter/mage/healer combos are all split up between characters in less than traditional manners they aren't able to go on auto pilot with a mage/fighter beating the hp out of em while someone else heals and another buffs/debuffs. This really does make bosses more interesting as a simple -speed or -defense can really mess up the party's rhythm! Hope this makes sense :P
I think the easiest way to achieve game balance (but not necessarily the easiest to implement) is to develop your own system of encounters and combat. I've been toying with the idea of implementing "social combat" in an RM** game (based on the system in the White Wolf game "Exalted").

As far as xp gain goes, it helps to establish an algorithm and stick with it. Most RPGs have an underlying formula that dictates the experience amounts needed to gain a level. Monsters/bosses should be scaled to character strengths and skill level. A monster that has "weak" stats but some killer abilities or tricks ('killing' moves/debuffs like petrification, doom, etc., unique weaknesses/resistances/immunities) can be just as much a challenge to defeat as a generic tank-n-spank whose stats rival the player characters. It helps to envision that the party should level up every X encounters around their level, and that each encounter should force them to utilize Y resources (in the form of hp, mp, items, etc.) and each encounter should yield an appropriate reward.

Bosses, bosses, bosses. My favorite boss fights are those that introduce a unique mechanic that makes it more than a simple tank-n-spank. A boss who appears with a group of 'normal' monster guards but heals/buffs them (without directly striking the party) can be much more fun to face than a boss with huge stats that "attacks" the party every turn ("Boss attacks Player for 40 damage... Boss attacks player for 40 damage...")

As stated above, giving your party more of a 'unique' feel instead of supplying generic roles to your characters can also make fights more interesting/fun.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
I don't see a lot of examples here, so I'll post one:

The twelve Arcana Shadows of PERSONA 3 each have their own gimmick (even though Magician is a cop-out). This usually comes from the Tarot card they're based on.
Their gimmicks are as follows:

I. Magician - Not directly fought by the party.

II. Priestess - Summons and Heals allies, which heal her and attack the party. Killing one automatically spawns a new one. Fought with a time limit.

III. Empress / IV. Emperor (fought at once) - They nullify all damage except a certain weakness, which is randomized after every successful hit.

V. Hierophant - Casts any spell it is hit with back at it's caster at double power, also inflicts fear (lowering evasion and increasing the chance that a critical hit is received) followed by Zionga (high-powered lightning spell).

VI. Lovers (Immediately after Hierophant) - Charms party members into healing it and attacking other party members, uses Heartbreaker, which deals quadruple damage to charmed characters.

VII. Chariot / VIII. Justice - Combine into one form, ?, which lacks an Arcana. Casts lots of status ailments when combined, and uses a variety of physical attacks when separate.

IX. Hermit - Charges up upon taking damage, three charges unleash high powered attacks. Forces player to use only their highest-damage attacks.

X. Fortune / XI. Strength - Fortune spins a roulette every turn for various effects. Strength protects Fortune until defeates by intercepting attacks and then counter-attacking. Strength buffs itself and de-buffs the party, then deals heavy physical damage.

XII. Hanged Man - Floats above the party with three statues that must be destroyed to harm it. Summons powerful minions, new statues, and attacks from above.



XIII. Death - Uses attacks from all forms, adopts the stats of each form and must be defeated with each Arcana to get to Death. Death attacks with an instant-kill counterattack in response to being targeted by any action. Death converts healing into damage (allies may still be revived.) Worst of all, it get two turns in succession!
author=BlueMind link=topic=1510.msg23572#msg23572 date=1215908593
Just a thought here, but it seems that every last boss in every RPG is UBER! powerd up...Its almost a untold rule of thumb that your last boss must be nearly unbeatable. I feel almost udderly forced to make all his stats maxed and his skills legendary in power. But how do you balance this...????


(I think ill let the discussion start here)

Nearly unbeatable? Like people play to that point :-)
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