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LARGE NUMBERS: GOLD EDITION! (AND ITEM PRICING)
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JosephSeraph
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CloseSo, in our topic about large numbers we noticed that there are wins and losses whether we choose large or small numbers -- that being that large numbers are easier to balance thanks to smaller steps, but smaller numbers being more concrete and readable to the player. But what about Gold prices? Technically if your potion costs 4g and your slime gives 1g when it dies, it's the same as if it costed 400g and your slime gave 100g when it died... But item pricing is a delicate issue, is it not?
So when we're talking about money in RPGs, what do you prefer? Big numbers, or small numbers?
Moreover*, what methodology do you use to price your items?
*pls correct me if I used this word wrong aaaaaaahhides
So when we're talking about money in RPGs, what do you prefer? Big numbers, or small numbers?
Moreover*, what methodology do you use to price your items?
*pls correct me if I used this word wrong aaaaaaah
Desertopa
775
Kind of a tangent to the subject, but the idea that "gold" is the default currency has bugged me for a long time. I favor made-up currencies, like Gil or Zenny, which might be more or less arbitrarily valuable, but even making the standard currency "silver" in the Lunar games was a big improvement over gold. Gold is valuable enough that it's hard to make it the standard of exchange for trivial purchases as well as major ones. You can shell out gold for a sword or suit of armor, but buying bread or fruit with gold just makes me feel silly.
I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go on the numbers, but a higher base value gives more options. If you start at 100, then you have 105, 150, 164, etc. If you start at 1, well... You have 1, 2, 3, etc. There's a lot between 100 and 200, but not 1 and 2. I think it's just easier to use three digits at the start, and change it if you're using a realistic currency. Things like Yen VS. Euro VS. Dollar would warrant a change in the digits, but when it comes to imaginary currencies, it doesn't matter as much. If I'm making a fantasy-themed game, I aim for gold, which I usually start at 10-50 for the cheapest items. Modern & semi-futuristic games get Yen/Euro/Dollar, and are priced accordingly. Then you have "Credits" in some sci-fi games, and those could be anywhere, since they usually have no basis in real life. "Obtained 100 Credits". How much is a credit? What does it even look like? It's like Zelda II's infamous "Bag of P". What's in the bag? Who knows.
I think the main thing to watch out for is how the gold is distributed among enemies. Should a rabid dog even be carrying gold? You'd have to make sure that the late-game enemies aren't giving you so much gold that you can buy enough of an early weak healing item to make an expensive strong healing item obsolete.
I think the main thing to watch out for is how the gold is distributed among enemies. Should a rabid dog even be carrying gold? You'd have to make sure that the late-game enemies aren't giving you so much gold that you can buy enough of an early weak healing item to make an expensive strong healing item obsolete.
RyaReisender
200
There's not much need to put high numbers for gold at all.
You might NOT want to use "1 gold" because that means the next harder enemy already has to give double as much gold, but starting at "2 gold" seems fine to me. You can after all mix it with different exp/gold combinations. Like you have one that gives 3 exp and 2 gold but also one that gives 2 exp and 4 gold.
One thing I want to add to this topic, is however, that many people do the mistake to scale exp similar to gold. This is NOT good. Exp should basically be an exponential curve, because the exp required should also be an exponential curve (the advantage of this is that overleveling is always similar as hard --- many games do the mistake to use linear or quadratic curves that ends up with overleveling being very hard at the start and very easy towards the end --- though I guess this works if growth also isn't exponential?). So exp should basically raise pretty fast. Gold on the other hand shouldn't raise fast at all. This is because there are plenty of items you need early on AND later on too. Like items that heal status changes, revive or even healing items.
So in the end it's a good idea to have gold start at a slightly higher value than exp and have exp eventually catch up.
For example like this (exp/gold):
2/10
4/12
8/14
16/17
32/20
64/24
128/29
256/35
You might NOT want to use "1 gold" because that means the next harder enemy already has to give double as much gold, but starting at "2 gold" seems fine to me. You can after all mix it with different exp/gold combinations. Like you have one that gives 3 exp and 2 gold but also one that gives 2 exp and 4 gold.
One thing I want to add to this topic, is however, that many people do the mistake to scale exp similar to gold. This is NOT good. Exp should basically be an exponential curve, because the exp required should also be an exponential curve (the advantage of this is that overleveling is always similar as hard --- many games do the mistake to use linear or quadratic curves that ends up with overleveling being very hard at the start and very easy towards the end --- though I guess this works if growth also isn't exponential?). So exp should basically raise pretty fast. Gold on the other hand shouldn't raise fast at all. This is because there are plenty of items you need early on AND later on too. Like items that heal status changes, revive or even healing items.
So in the end it's a good idea to have gold start at a slightly higher value than exp and have exp eventually catch up.
For example like this (exp/gold):
2/10
4/12
8/14
16/17
32/20
64/24
128/29
256/35
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=RyaReisender
You might NOT want to use "1 gold" because that means the next harder enemy already has to give double as much gold, but starting at "2 gold" seems fine to me. You can after all mix it with different exp/gold combinations. Like you have one that gives 3 exp and 2 gold but also one that gives 2 exp and 4 gold.
I have handled this by making it so in the first dungeon, one or two of the types of enemies drop no gold at all. In the second dungeon, everything gives 1 gold. And then in the third dungeon, there are three types of enemies that still give 1 gold and one type that gives 2 gold.
I actually am doing this in one of my games purely because I wanted the currency to be sunglasses, and most of my enemies were wearing sunglasses anyway. So I started making enemies in the first few dungeons drop 1 sunglasses, since that's how many they were wearing! Then suddenly a few enemies drop 2 or 3 and you're like, "Huh, guess he was carrying a spare in his pocket." Then eventually a boss drops like 40 sunglasses and you're just like "...Man, this guy must be the fucking skateboard king or something."
RyaReisender
200
Oh true, if you have encounters you can basically balance the rewards per-encounter rather than per-monster.
I guess you could also draw more sunglasses on the monsters.
Or make a monster entirely made out of sunglasses and make it a secret bonus encounter (like the cubes in Lufia 2).
I guess you could also draw more sunglasses on the monsters.
Or make a monster entirely made out of sunglasses and make it a secret bonus encounter (like the cubes in Lufia 2).
from RyaReisender
Or make a monster entirely made out of sunglasses and make it a secret bonus encounter
This needs to happen.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
The thing I've found I prefer about smaller numbers is that it makes more sense realistically, because I have to imagine that this gold is actually worth a pretty penny in the game world. That being said, I could see spending 15 gold on a piece of armor more than I could see buying the same piece of armor with 1,500 gold.
Not to mention, your pockets only go so deep (defeated by the inclusion of everything else in your inventory, but oh well).
Not to mention, your pockets only go so deep (defeated by the inclusion of everything else in your inventory, but oh well).
NebelSoft
33
author=RyaReisender
One thing I want to add to this topic, is however, that many people do the mistake to scale exp similar to gold. This is NOT good. Exp should basically be an exponential curve,
Hehe.. in the large chatdice /pen&paper RPG I made, monsters drop exactly 100% of their max HP in currency XD you'd probably go insane playing that. But it really works out well - in THAT world. Not saying it'd work out as well in any other world.
But in that specific fantasy world it's convenient and works - especially since you have to play, and share money with other players all the time.
Aside from that, the high "Gold" number in JRPGs comes from the fact that they are, well, J RPGs - meaning the prices are kinda leaned on the japanese Yen... Basically what you could buy for 100 Yen might well cost "100 Gold" in a japanese fantasy game.. : )
On the other hand, in a european game said Item might well only cost " 1 Gold " in a game... so that it makes more sense for western players.
author=Desertopa
Kind of a tangent to the subject, but the idea that "gold" is the default currency has bugged me for a long time. I favor made-up currencies, like Gil or Zenny, which might be more or less arbitrarily valuable, but even making the standard currency "silver" in the Lunar games was a big improvement over gold. Gold is valuable enough that it's hard to make it the standard of exchange for trivial purchases as well as major ones. You can shell out gold for a sword or suit of armor, but buying bread or fruit with gold just makes me feel silly.
Totally agree, you can add a nice bit of flavor to your game just by adding your own currency, or at least using one of the less-used options. ^_^
RyaReisender
200
@NebelSoft
The actually height of the number isn't so much the problem as is the increase.
Say you have healing items costing 50 gold each. So that the player can afford them early on where he needs them you want an encounter to give at least 50 gold so it's enough for at least one healing item (more if the encounter require you to use more than one healing item). Now if endgame gives 10000 or more gold per encounter, then from a single encounter you could basically buy 200 of those healing items, that basically makes their cost meaningless.
There are ways to counter it by for example limiting the amount of what you can take with you, but if you will always have enough gold to fully stock up, why even have items cost gold in the first place? Just make them fully stock up at each check point automatically.
You could also make items only usable in a certain level range. Like that 50 gold potion actually only works for level 1-10 after that you need to buy one for 500 gold that works for level 11-20 and so on.
The actually height of the number isn't so much the problem as is the increase.
Say you have healing items costing 50 gold each. So that the player can afford them early on where he needs them you want an encounter to give at least 50 gold so it's enough for at least one healing item (more if the encounter require you to use more than one healing item). Now if endgame gives 10000 or more gold per encounter, then from a single encounter you could basically buy 200 of those healing items, that basically makes their cost meaningless.
There are ways to counter it by for example limiting the amount of what you can take with you, but if you will always have enough gold to fully stock up, why even have items cost gold in the first place? Just make them fully stock up at each check point automatically.
You could also make items only usable in a certain level range. Like that 50 gold potion actually only works for level 1-10 after that you need to buy one for 500 gold that works for level 11-20 and so on.
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