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CREATING HEROES IN SRPG ROGUELIKE
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RyaReisender
200
RyaReisender
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CloseDue to the lack of SRPGs (Strategy RPGs, some people also call them TRPGs) that I actually enjoy, I was thinking about writing my own SRPG engine and combine it with the roguelike feature of random floor generation, so that I have endless amounts of battles to play. I've started creating game designs for it and am already pretty happy with most decisions I made, but there is one thing I just can't decide for: How character generation should work.
So I just wanted to collect some opinions to get a few different viewpoints on it.
Basically think of creating 6-8 units at the start of the game.
System A: Full Freedom
- The player manually decides for the starting stats (including movement and weapon) and the growth of each character (with a limit of total stats/growth)
System B: Stats Roll
- Stats & Growth simply get rolled out and player can only decide to "take it" or "roll again"
System C: Movement Type & Weapon Choice
- Player selects a movement type (normal, horse, fly), normal movement type will result in better stats while other movement types give advantages (horse can move faster on free fields, fly can ignore land effects and fly over obstacles)
- Player selects a weapon type, depending on the weapon his basic stat layout will be chosen (e.g. Axe fighters have more DEF, Lance fighters more HP, Bow users can attack from distance but have less DEF, etc.)
- Player now rolls out the stats (with reroll option), but the randomness will be much lower here as most is determined by the combination of movement type and weapon
System D: Class selection
- Out of the different possible movement & weapon combinations I create 30+ classes (normal+sword = swordsman, normal+axe = warrior, normal+magic = mage, horse+spear = knight, fly+sword = birdwarrior, etc.), there might not be a class for any combination and there could be two classes with the same combination or even a class that equip different weapon types
- Player just selects the class, alone based on the class the basic stat and growth layout is decided
- Weapon types are independent to stat growth, but they determine the stat bonuses you get from equipping them (e.g. Axes might give a bonus in DEF, a warrior will get lots of DEF himself with the added DEF from axes, but there might also be a berserker class that doesn't get any DEF and depends sorely on its axes to get DEF at all)
- Player can roll out the stats, but the randomness will be much lower again as most is determined by the class
So I just wanted to collect some opinions to get a few different viewpoints on it.
Basically think of creating 6-8 units at the start of the game.
System A: Full Freedom
- The player manually decides for the starting stats (including movement and weapon) and the growth of each character (with a limit of total stats/growth)
System B: Stats Roll
- Stats & Growth simply get rolled out and player can only decide to "take it" or "roll again"
System C: Movement Type & Weapon Choice
- Player selects a movement type (normal, horse, fly), normal movement type will result in better stats while other movement types give advantages (horse can move faster on free fields, fly can ignore land effects and fly over obstacles)
- Player selects a weapon type, depending on the weapon his basic stat layout will be chosen (e.g. Axe fighters have more DEF, Lance fighters more HP, Bow users can attack from distance but have less DEF, etc.)
- Player now rolls out the stats (with reroll option), but the randomness will be much lower here as most is determined by the combination of movement type and weapon
System D: Class selection
- Out of the different possible movement & weapon combinations I create 30+ classes (normal+sword = swordsman, normal+axe = warrior, normal+magic = mage, horse+spear = knight, fly+sword = birdwarrior, etc.), there might not be a class for any combination and there could be two classes with the same combination or even a class that equip different weapon types
- Player just selects the class, alone based on the class the basic stat and growth layout is decided
- Weapon types are independent to stat growth, but they determine the stat bonuses you get from equipping them (e.g. Axes might give a bonus in DEF, a warrior will get lots of DEF himself with the added DEF from axes, but there might also be a berserker class that doesn't get any DEF and depends sorely on its axes to get DEF at all)
- Player can roll out the stats, but the randomness will be much lower again as most is determined by the class
My personal opinion would be not to have randomness involved in stat definition at all, not even in roguelike games. It is just unnecessarily frustrating and all it will accomplish is that people keep rerolling until they have the stats they wanted to begin with. (Of course, you could add a "quick character generation" option to randomly create a character and start playing immediately, but this should be a choice and not the default option.)
I think the best approach would be to combine your systems A and C: Have the player select their movement type and weapon proficiency, which also partially determines the character's stats. But then give the player the option to distribute a certain amount of additional stat points freely. That way, you can keep some control over possible "classes" or combinations and have a certain order to it, but there will still be enough customization possibilities for the player to enjoy.
I think the best approach would be to combine your systems A and C: Have the player select their movement type and weapon proficiency, which also partially determines the character's stats. But then give the player the option to distribute a certain amount of additional stat points freely. That way, you can keep some control over possible "classes" or combinations and have a certain order to it, but there will still be enough customization possibilities for the player to enjoy.
RyaReisender
200
Hmm, I guess starting stats could be fixed (depending on weapon/movement/class).
Reasons for randomness on start would be:
- if the player creates two heroes of the same type they should still be different
- with random rolls the chance to get an "extreme" build is very low and a balanced build is more likely, so to get an "extreme" build you at least need to put in some effort and roll often, whereas in a manual approach, the player could just put all points into one stat easily
But thanks for the feedback, I'll consider it. :-)
Reasons for randomness on start would be:
- if the player creates two heroes of the same type they should still be different
- with random rolls the chance to get an "extreme" build is very low and a balanced build is more likely, so to get an "extreme" build you at least need to put in some effort and roll often, whereas in a manual approach, the player could just put all points into one stat easily
But thanks for the feedback, I'll consider it. :-)
You're welcome. Though I think that if a player decides to create the same type of character two times, there would always be the option of assigning the additional stat points differently, resulting in an entirely new character build.
But you have a very good point about the danger of "extreme" builds through manual stat distribution. I can think of two ways to prevent this from happening without resorting to randomness:
You could simply put a cap on the amount of stat points a player can assign to each stat at the beginning of the game. That way, you would just force the player to take a more balanced approach. It's not a very appealing solution in my opinion, though.
The other way would be to give the player a certain amount of "upgrade points" or the like which they can spend to increase their stats - but the higher they make them, the more upgrade points it would consume. For example increasing a stat from 10 to 11 would be slightly more expensive than increasing it from 9 to 10, and the step from 11 to 12 would cost even more etc. This would not make extreme builds impossible, but discourage them as they are the less efficient and less economical choice.
But you have a very good point about the danger of "extreme" builds through manual stat distribution. I can think of two ways to prevent this from happening without resorting to randomness:
You could simply put a cap on the amount of stat points a player can assign to each stat at the beginning of the game. That way, you would just force the player to take a more balanced approach. It's not a very appealing solution in my opinion, though.
The other way would be to give the player a certain amount of "upgrade points" or the like which they can spend to increase their stats - but the higher they make them, the more upgrade points it would consume. For example increasing a stat from 10 to 11 would be slightly more expensive than increasing it from 9 to 10, and the step from 11 to 12 would cost even more etc. This would not make extreme builds impossible, but discourage them as they are the less efficient and less economical choice.
RyaReisender
200
I thought about this a while and I really don't like to remove the randomness, let me explain...
The problem is that if the players WANTS to create two characters that are exactly the same he could easily do it like that.
But what I'm aiming for is something that makes it feel like every hero is unique.
Besides, if I let the player manually set stats anyway, there wouldn't even be a need for a weapon choice - I invented that solely on the idea to give the player at least a little bit of control over what hero the random number generator creates.
Maybe I could create some different mode where you can retry with character you already played with, though, hmmm.
I was hoping to get a wider range of feedback on it, but I guess many people don't even really care whether the choice is by movement/weapon or by class names, eh?
Movement/weapon has the advantage that it allows all possible combinations and it is also fairly unique as no other SRPG does it like that. Plus selecting that is much faster than browsing through range of 30+ classes. Class-choice is more the standard for character generation in an SRPG. But the advantage here would be that you could make the classes a lot more individual. For example I could even make classes that are good in one stat early on but "late bloomers" on other stats. That would be too annoying for a player to manually set.
Though I think that if a player decides to create the same type of character two times, there would always be the option of assigning the additional stat points differently, resulting in an entirely new character build.
The problem is that if the players WANTS to create two characters that are exactly the same he could easily do it like that.
But what I'm aiming for is something that makes it feel like every hero is unique.
Besides, if I let the player manually set stats anyway, there wouldn't even be a need for a weapon choice - I invented that solely on the idea to give the player at least a little bit of control over what hero the random number generator creates.
Maybe I could create some different mode where you can retry with character you already played with, though, hmmm.
I was hoping to get a wider range of feedback on it, but I guess many people don't even really care whether the choice is by movement/weapon or by class names, eh?
Movement/weapon has the advantage that it allows all possible combinations and it is also fairly unique as no other SRPG does it like that. Plus selecting that is much faster than browsing through range of 30+ classes. Class-choice is more the standard for character generation in an SRPG. But the advantage here would be that you could make the classes a lot more individual. For example I could even make classes that are good in one stat early on but "late bloomers" on other stats. That would be too annoying for a player to manually set.
I get it. Don't take my opinion too seriously, of course, because I am not a huge fan of randomness and therefore not entirely neutral.
I can understand you want to make every character feel unique, and randomness is certainly one way to achieve that. My general advice would just be that you should try to find a good balance between what the player can influence and what he can't influence. Also, if you use randomness, make sure to make it behave in a fair way - that is, different random traits or stats should not objectively make a character "good" or "bad" to play.
In case you haven't already, you might want to take a look at the character creation in The Drop and see what choices influence new characters in what way. Also, your idea about more individual or special classes with non-linear or non-stat advantages sounds very promising.
This is also a good idea. People like to experiment, but also often get attached to certain characters, especially if they created them themselves.
Just so you know, I really like both roguelikes and SRPGs/TRPGs, so if you published this project of yours, I'd definitely want to give it a try.
I can understand you want to make every character feel unique, and randomness is certainly one way to achieve that. My general advice would just be that you should try to find a good balance between what the player can influence and what he can't influence. Also, if you use randomness, make sure to make it behave in a fair way - that is, different random traits or stats should not objectively make a character "good" or "bad" to play.
In case you haven't already, you might want to take a look at the character creation in The Drop and see what choices influence new characters in what way. Also, your idea about more individual or special classes with non-linear or non-stat advantages sounds very promising.
author=RyaReisender
Maybe I could create some different mode where you can retry with character you already played with, though, hmmm.
This is also a good idea. People like to experiment, but also often get attached to certain characters, especially if they created them themselves.
Just so you know, I really like both roguelikes and SRPGs/TRPGs, so if you published this project of yours, I'd definitely want to give it a try.
RyaReisender
200
Don't worry too much about character balance. It's basically my life goal to develop the perfect character growth system and I've been working on it for like 15 years already. I have tons of character growth simulation tools and spreadsheet tables. So I'm very confident in my skills in that very specific area.
Oh yeah, maybe I could just show you two of the simulation tools with the case for movement and weapon choice (though weapons might still change, right now sword is higher HP, axe is higher DEF, knife is higher SPD, spear is melee and range, bow is only range but good ATK, magic and the secret types not listed are special cases just ignore those =p).
coin_growth_chain_and_fair.zip (blue download button)
If you run them after the initial choice you will see different character rolls and estimated growth, press any key to roll again. If you are satisfied with the character just press "y" for yes. Then it will show you how the character develops from level 1 to 20. :-)
Ah you know the good genres. ;-)
But I'm not sure how accessible my games are for others since I don't like doing graphics and instead just use my imagination. So it'll be very abstract.
(Also it's not like I'll be using RPG Maker.)
Oh yeah, maybe I could just show you two of the simulation tools with the case for movement and weapon choice (though weapons might still change, right now sword is higher HP, axe is higher DEF, knife is higher SPD, spear is melee and range, bow is only range but good ATK, magic and the secret types not listed are special cases just ignore those =p).
coin_growth_chain_and_fair.zip (blue download button)
If you run them after the initial choice you will see different character rolls and estimated growth, press any key to roll again. If you are satisfied with the character just press "y" for yes. Then it will show you how the character develops from level 1 to 20. :-)
Just so you know, I really like both roguelikes and SRPGs/TRPGs, so if you published this project of yours, I'd definitely want to give it a try.
Ah you know the good genres. ;-)
But I'm not sure how accessible my games are for others since I don't like doing graphics and instead just use my imagination. So it'll be very abstract.
(Also it's not like I'll be using RPG Maker.)
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