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GAME DESIGN DISCUSSION OF THE WEEK: HEY ASSHOLES, STOP GIVING UP.
Posts
Feldschlacht IV
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CloseAh, but then there is the question as to weather or not he community is counterproductive to the process that the individual maker goes through instilling in them the culture of "show and tell and not much else" we have. With things as they are we should pose the question that maybe a maker working outside would have a more fufilling homebrew experience. Sometimes I wonder if the participation of the community in the process does more harm than good to the individual who just wants to make something.
The issue you speak of is 'screenshot circle jerking', which is basically a community filled with people beating each other off over screenshots and never playing each others games nor finishing their own. Which I fiercely hate with a passion. That right there is the exact opposite of the participation of the community I'm referring to.
To me, participating in the community is making your own game while playing and rating other games, talking about each others games, and participating in community events and projects. That, is true participation of the community.
Blind
2262
author=Blitzen link=topic=1611.msg25531#msg25531 date=1217220638Oh god yes.
Ah, but then there is the question as to weather or not he community is counterproductive to the process that the individual maker goes through instilling in them the culture of "show and tell and not much else" we have. With things as they are we should pose the question that maybe a maker working outside would have a more fufilling homebrew experience.
(Mind you, this is not inherent problem with the community, but I certainly do not see it changing.)
Neok
3602
author=Blitzen link=topic=1611.msg25528#msg25528 date=1217219507
Stuff in first post
While I'm not bigoted enough to assume I'm "better" than other people for acting a certain way, I can attest to having the same kind of attitude.
Honestly, I've never been an overly active member in the community in general, and that's just been getting worse as time goes by. Like Blitzen said, "I just want to stay out of it and do my own thing." And while I do care what you guys think about my projects, I trust my own judgement and intuition enough to call the shots myself. Besides, I feel like a heel when someone wants me to change something, and I don't.
But as Mog puts it, if everyone were like me and Blitzen, there wouldn't be much of a community at all.
Anyways, that's off-topic.
While I've never actually "cancelled" a project, I've definitely pulled the vanishing act before. Though, that's really only with one of my current projects. All previous projects of mine, I pretty much never say anything about until I'm done, and then it's like "Here, it's complete. Check it out." But that's really just how I do things.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because you don't hear from someone about something for a while, doesn't necessarily mean they've given up on it and decided to sneak out the back door!
Even if that's usually what it means.
Whoa. LMAO!! I know your like totally serious, Feldschlacht IV,but that was a little funny. I love your topics and how you present them. And yes I do agree with you, but I will like to say I hate hype up games......they do put out demos and they suck. That what pisses me off and thats worst then hyping up your game and quitting. Unless you quit before giving us a demo. That some bullshit. If you do do that, I'm straight killig you.
Blitzen
3253
Personally, I think that if everyone was like you and I, Neok, that we'd still have a community. It would just be quieter, slower, and the projects that come out would be pretty high quality but few and far between.
Well I thought I post again because last time I post I didnt read what the discussion had developed into.
There are communities like that. They are quiet and slow, but because they are quiet and slow we dont know they exist.
And thats the right attitude you should have, but after you really thought about the fan's advice. Dont be overly stubborn and say "well in my game there is spelled like their." Thats being an ass. Im not calling you an ass because you did say that you do care what others thing of your project and only you know your project inside and out.
author=Blitzen link=topic=1611.msg25546#msg25546 date=1217223990
Personally, I think that if everyone was like you and I, Neok, that we'd still have a community. It would just be quieter, slower, and the projects that come out would be pretty high quality but few and far between.
There are communities like that. They are quiet and slow, but because they are quiet and slow we dont know they exist.
author=Neok link=topic=1611.msg25543#msg25543 date=1217223076
And while I do care what you guys think about my projects, I trust my own judgement and intuition enough to call the shots myself. Besides, I feel like a heel when someone wants me to change something, and I don't.
Even if that's usually what it means.
And thats the right attitude you should have, but after you really thought about the fan's advice. Dont be overly stubborn and say "well in my game there is spelled like their." Thats being an ass. Im not calling you an ass because you did say that you do care what others thing of your project and only you know your project inside and out.
Yes, this is exactly the type of pep talk this place needs! I too for one have been part of this for years.
For example, back in 2004, I lost my only year long project Heavenly Orb to a virus, and for many years have blamed my lack of finish on HO. Well you know what! HO was a shitty game back then, I've made way better stuff now then ever before, and I can't blame one project on the entire reason why I can't finish my stuff!
Now...I have a flash driver so there is no excuse, I'm sticking with shorter projects that take 3 months to do, and instead of adding all these crazy features...I add the basics, because you know what? That's good enough, sure people will tell you that it needed a lot more, but screw them! You have something done, and nobody can take that away.
So yeah, some days are bad ones...but there are many good days too! You can't blame things on others or what happened in the past, take it and just deal with it.
For example, back in 2004, I lost my only year long project Heavenly Orb to a virus, and for many years have blamed my lack of finish on HO. Well you know what! HO was a shitty game back then, I've made way better stuff now then ever before, and I can't blame one project on the entire reason why I can't finish my stuff!
Now...I have a flash driver so there is no excuse, I'm sticking with shorter projects that take 3 months to do, and instead of adding all these crazy features...I add the basics, because you know what? That's good enough, sure people will tell you that it needed a lot more, but screw them! You have something done, and nobody can take that away.
So yeah, some days are bad ones...but there are many good days too! You can't blame things on others or what happened in the past, take it and just deal with it.
I completely agree with you Feldschlacht.
I think projects not turning out the way you imagined shouldn't stop people, I think it's stupid to give them up, it should motive you to get it right more than anything (though you should be careful of the remaking cycle). People who give up easy are fools, I know indie game making is a hobby, but you're just giving up everything you've worked so hard on.
Also, no one has an excuse not to back up their files, but when it does happen you can't blame them for giving up, just blame them for being stupid.
You can't stop people from giving up their project if they want, Since everyone is different adressing the problem is not going to do a thing. You just have to let people get on with it.
I think projects not turning out the way you imagined shouldn't stop people, I think it's stupid to give them up, it should motive you to get it right more than anything (though you should be careful of the remaking cycle). People who give up easy are fools, I know indie game making is a hobby, but you're just giving up everything you've worked so hard on.
Also, no one has an excuse not to back up their files, but when it does happen you can't blame them for giving up, just blame them for being stupid.
You can't stop people from giving up their project if they want, Since everyone is different adressing the problem is not going to do a thing. You just have to let people get on with it.
Neophyte
155
author=Blitzen link=topic=1611.msg25528#msg25528 date=1217219507Yes, I completely agree with this.
Good stuff
I enjoy making games as a hobby, nothing else. Like Neok said, I trust my own judgement and I call the shots. I'll share it once I see that the vision I've made is clear, and that people can enjoy it for what it is. It's worked better for me, but at the same time the community always need some kind of motivator for them. So it isn't necessarily a bad thing that people are active and posting things.
And thats the right attitude you should have, but after you really thought about the fan's advice. Dont be overly stubborn and say "well in my game there is spelled like their." Thats being an ass. Im not calling you an ass because you did say that you do care what others thing of your project and only you know your project inside and out.Not to speak for him, but when you've been around for a fairly long time, you simply KNOW how things work. Of course changes are always being made, and they listen to the fans to an extent. They trust their judgement more though, rather than listening to someone who's been around only for a year or two.
Anyway, as for the main post, here's my opinion(again). The community has never been about complete games. The mentality has always been a "Hey, look what I made" type of deal. Whether the game is complete or not matters, but it doesn't entirely dictate how well received a game is. It should be, but that's not a big part of the mentality in the community. It's just how things have been for the past 8 years.
trance2
500
author=Blitzen link=topic=1611.msg25531#msg25531 date=1217220638I agree with this whole-heartedly.
Ah, but then there is the question as to weather or not he community is counterproductive to the process that the individual maker goes through instilling in them the culture of "show and tell and not much else" we have. With things as they are we should pose the question that maybe a maker working outside would have a more fufilling homebrew experience. Sometimes I wonder if the participation of the community in the process does more harm than good to the individual in thier pursuit to create something.
I mean, I can think of two examples of good games created without any adjustment, criticism, or whatever that we have in this community, albeit they're not RM games. Cave Story and Knytt. Cave Story is considered one of the best indie platformers ever created. Though he did have practice with Ika, StudioPixel did the whole entire thing on his own, because he wanted to make it, not because of the indie community. As for Knytt, even Wikipedia's article on Nikolas shows at least five games before he ever even made Knytt. I didn't even know about them till I looked them up, knowing only about Within a Deep Forest and, when it came out, Knytt Stories. Did he keep making games up to this point, with those three games, because people were giving him "fives," as GRS put it, or because people wanted more? No, he did it because he enjoyed it.
So, I guess I can echo the sentiment that, even if people really like something, if I'm not enjoying it, I'll drop it. I would say something, though. I don't think there's been anything I've advertised that I've dropped without saying something (*hint hint*).
ZPE
1562
I agree with what Biltzen has said in general but show and tell should also comprises of showing your games in action. There are too many mock ups or one screenshot wonders in screenshot topics which look great and everyone says "Wow! That's f'ing awesome dude!" then nothing productive happens as you've said.
There is an element to counterproductiveness (is that a word?) but this is not just the community but other aspects of using a computer namely the internet. When I want to work on my game I always turn off the internet or disable wireless connections because if I didn't I'd always hang around RMN or another site doing nothing but posting in articles like this. :P
I also wouldn't call game quitters assholes as at the end of the day it's up to them what they want to do with their lives. You can't expect unpaid game developers to stick to their games which is why I always look at demos (I rarely look at adverts), think to myself "yes this is good/bad" then provide the feedback then move on.
Beta testing however is frustrating. I mean I was beta testing a game and I giving very detailed feedback logs to the author every week. This went on for 3 weeks until the author decided to suspend the game. He comes back later (6 months) and asks me to continue to beta test which I agree to only to be let down again (it's been over a year now, the author's probably dropped the project). Those are the real assholes.
There is an element to counterproductiveness (is that a word?) but this is not just the community but other aspects of using a computer namely the internet. When I want to work on my game I always turn off the internet or disable wireless connections because if I didn't I'd always hang around RMN or another site doing nothing but posting in articles like this. :P
I also wouldn't call game quitters assholes as at the end of the day it's up to them what they want to do with their lives. You can't expect unpaid game developers to stick to their games which is why I always look at demos (I rarely look at adverts), think to myself "yes this is good/bad" then provide the feedback then move on.
Beta testing however is frustrating. I mean I was beta testing a game and I giving very detailed feedback logs to the author every week. This went on for 3 weeks until the author decided to suspend the game. He comes back later (6 months) and asks me to continue to beta test which I agree to only to be let down again (it's been over a year now, the author's probably dropped the project). Those are the real assholes.
Sion
37
author=Tau link=topic=1611.msg25470#msg25470 date=1217173345author=Sion link=topic=1611.msg25456#msg25456 date=1217165866I don't know why you would single out someone like that considering he's actually released 3 significant versions of his game. Which is 3 more then what you have an without a team and however many topics you made at GW. Honestly even if you were joking not everyone will think it's in anyway funny or appropriate.
BLINDSIGHT, if you're out there,
READ THIS PRONTO.
You definitely murdered me Tau.
I can't even defend myself on that
one.
~Sion
maladroithim
1495
6. Artist eloped and moved to a different country and you didn't hear from him for over a year.
Where is 7. I've Lost Interest in Game Making?
That's incredibly common. People move on in life, become admins at some small RM community, and the post lots about the good ol' days.
That's incredibly common. People move on in life, become admins at some small RM community, and the post lots about the good ol' days.
Mr.Nemo
1295
8. Nobody is playing my game, which kind of disecourages one to make a game that's supposed to entertain (amongst other things).
Blitzen
3253
author=Mr.Nemo link=topic=1611.msg26350#msg26350 date=1217880395
8. Nobody is playing my game, which kind of disecourages one to make a game that's supposed to entertain (amongst other things).
Get over it. I think that if you really enjoyed making games you wouldn't care if anyone played it, or failing that, you would go and FIND people to play it. But seriously, if this is the reason you're giving up, then this has little-nothing to do with gamemaking and you're questing for some kind of positive reinforcement, probably because you feel a parent figure never gave you adequate attention or something. This is the internet, you really shouldn't have such expectations, IMO.
I have solved the mystery of Mr. Nemo. Next patient.
Blitzen
3253
little boy who sees angels and asks that they help his favourite baseball team to prove his dad wrong so that they can have a loving family once again guest starring christopher lloyd slash deep space nine fan
S. F. LaValle
1069
This turned out to be a good topic, looks like a lot of people are getting some of their frustrations out. While I'm at it, I'll add a #9.
9) I never really quit, I just go through long hiatuses. When I get back in the swing of things, there's a new RPG Maker out. Thoughts? =)
9) I never really quit, I just go through long hiatuses. When I get back in the swing of things, there's a new RPG Maker out. Thoughts? =)
