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A "BOSS REUNION" NEAR THE ENDGAME?
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CloseI'm curious about your opinions on this: In an RPG, is bringing back all the previous bosses and putting them in the final dungeon (perhaps with increased stats so they still challenge the player) a neat idea, or just a cheesy cop-out?
I always found it neat in old Mega Man games when they had you fight all the robot masters again, and in Chrono Trigger they had Lavos (in certain situations) mimic each of the bosses from the first half of the game.
But is reusing bosses like that just padding the game, or will players find it interesting to see how they fare against the same bosses now that they have greater access to skills and abilities?
I always found it neat in old Mega Man games when they had you fight all the robot masters again, and in Chrono Trigger they had Lavos (in certain situations) mimic each of the bosses from the first half of the game.
But is reusing bosses like that just padding the game, or will players find it interesting to see how they fare against the same bosses now that they have greater access to skills and abilities?
How about an optional boss gauntlet with a great weapon as a prize? That way it's up to the player whether they want to go for it or not.
Hell, I wouldn't mind something like a group of earlier enemies all at once. Say there are six bosses in a game, break it up into two groups of three - of course, you'd have to make sure they each have a different 'gimmick' and that they would work well together but not overpower the heroes. It'd add more dynamic than just 'fight the same monster again' at least. ^.^
Hell, I wouldn't mind something like a group of earlier enemies all at once. Say there are six bosses in a game, break it up into two groups of three - of course, you'd have to make sure they each have a different 'gimmick' and that they would work well together but not overpower the heroes. It'd add more dynamic than just 'fight the same monster again' at least. ^.^
Depends on the kind of game and also the genre.
Usually, especially when it makes little to no sense story-wise, it's a very bad idea.
I always find it a little bit annoying to fight all those bosses whose pattern I know again. Most are generetic to boot, so no plus there.
Okami for example tied it in storywise well, so it made sense. The bosses were rather unique.. but did I like the fights? Not really. Did it set up the final boss fight? Not really.
I wouldn't mind it for optional fights .. but unless they are vastly different, it'd be more of a filler.
I've never once seen it done good enough to find them as engaging as a new boss.
Usually, especially when it makes little to no sense story-wise, it's a very bad idea.
I always find it a little bit annoying to fight all those bosses whose pattern I know again. Most are generetic to boot, so no plus there.
Okami for example tied it in storywise well, so it made sense. The bosses were rather unique.. but did I like the fights? Not really. Did it set up the final boss fight? Not really.
I wouldn't mind it for optional fights .. but unless they are vastly different, it'd be more of a filler.
I've never once seen it done good enough to find them as engaging as a new boss.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
As long as you don't just copy/paste the same bosses all over again, you should be good. Like Liberty said, they need a new gimmick to make them feel fresh again.
If they had a weakness in the previous fight, maybe they can do something to counteract that weakness? For example, if a boss was weak to fire, he would have a fire crystal next to him or something that negates his fire weakness. If the party targets that crystal and destroys is, then the boss fight can proceed as normal.
Have you played both Portal games? In Portal 2, the final boss examines how you beat the final boss of the first game, and then sets up the arena so that same strategy won't work there. But Chell had found new methods of navigating obstacles in Portal 2, and can use those new methods to beat the final boss now.
If you do something similar to that, then it'll feel fresh and exciting again.
If they had a weakness in the previous fight, maybe they can do something to counteract that weakness? For example, if a boss was weak to fire, he would have a fire crystal next to him or something that negates his fire weakness. If the party targets that crystal and destroys is, then the boss fight can proceed as normal.
Have you played both Portal games? In Portal 2, the final boss examines how you beat the final boss of the first game, and then sets up the arena so that same strategy won't work there. But Chell had found new methods of navigating obstacles in Portal 2, and can use those new methods to beat the final boss now.
If you do something similar to that, then it'll feel fresh and exciting again.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Everlong and Blackmoon Prophecy did this by throwing the same bosses at you but together in a single fight (or two in terms of BP), and I think it works fairly well as it gives you a solid challenge without having to create empty bosses with no connection to the story. Then again, I'd have to go with Everlong's attempt in terms of execution.
The same bosses again are boring, even with stat ups. The sense of discovery and gaging a new boss' strength is gone if its the same pattern and the old pattern was balanced against a different skillset and potentially party makeup. It's a solved problem as far as the player is concerned that they're asked to do again. This was an issue back with Megaman too. The robot master refights are generally boring because its the same boss with the same shtick and solution. The only difference is the addition of attrition and that's not too terribly exciting by itself.
My suggestion is to identify the general mechanics of the boss and expand on them. If one boss focused on piling on damage over time then in the refight not only do they have meaner DoTs they have an ability that causes DoT damage to occur immediately. The player's old knowledge of the fight gives them an idea of what's to come but they don't know how the entire fight will play out in advance.
e: poor wording pt1
My suggestion is to identify the general mechanics of the boss and expand on them. If one boss focused on piling on damage over time then in the refight not only do they have meaner DoTs they have an ability that causes DoT damage to occur immediately. The player's old knowledge of the fight gives them an idea of what's to come but they don't know how the entire fight will play out in advance.
e: poor wording pt1
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I mean, it is a copout, and it will almost certainly feel like one. You're either reusing the same gameplay (Lavos in CT) or the same graphics (The Four Fiends in FF4).
But it's not a huge copout. I wouldn't make it the only boss of a late-game dungeon, but including it before a new boss doesn't subtract from the game. If you do it right, it can also make the player feel really powerful. It can also feel like a legitimately new challenge if you combine the bosses together (FF4 kinda tried to do this, but also removed all the strategy from them, wtf, don't do that).
But it's not a huge copout. I wouldn't make it the only boss of a late-game dungeon, but including it before a new boss doesn't subtract from the game. If you do it right, it can also make the player feel really powerful. It can also feel like a legitimately new challenge if you combine the bosses together (FF4 kinda tried to do this, but also removed all the strategy from them, wtf, don't do that).
Housekeeping
3571
Is it conceited to say that I think I did this well in The Heart Pumps Clay?
As far as I'm concerned, I think bringing bosses back is good, at least from a story perspective; it means that they're actual characters that matter. Well, it means that if you make them mean that. If they're just monsters that could have been cut out from the plot in the first place and you're adding them at the end, it can feel like padding.
Gameplay wise, I agree with the consensus: don't just buff their stats. Throw a wrench in the works so that each fight feels nuanced. Or, like LockeZ mentioned, you can bring back old foes to make the player see how much stronger they've become; that's how the aforementioned Mega Man second fights function. I guess the important thing is that the bosses are either in line with the story or the game's design, but that's a catchall response.
As far as I'm concerned, I think bringing bosses back is good, at least from a story perspective; it means that they're actual characters that matter. Well, it means that if you make them mean that. If they're just monsters that could have been cut out from the plot in the first place and you're adding them at the end, it can feel like padding.
Gameplay wise, I agree with the consensus: don't just buff their stats. Throw a wrench in the works so that each fight feels nuanced. Or, like LockeZ mentioned, you can bring back old foes to make the player see how much stronger they've become; that's how the aforementioned Mega Man second fights function. I guess the important thing is that the bosses are either in line with the story or the game's design, but that's a catchall response.
Zephyr
1241
I recall repeating some bosses or miniboss at few occasions in my game.
They weren't completely the same as the first encounter.
- One miniboss changed it up my turning invisible in the second round. That encounter was even optional to begin with.
- Then there was a main-boss showing up a second time, but in this encounter more like a miniboss, although at lower health, she was fighting more relentlessly.
What I mean to say is, I think it works out fine in repeating the boss if you're not just copy-pasting. Make the boss different. Tougher, maybe new moves or tricks.
Some might like that you can curb-stomp "that one boss" this time around if it's the same, but I find it boring and a waste of time. If you already defeated it the first time, the satisfaction has already been there.
They weren't completely the same as the first encounter.
- One miniboss changed it up my turning invisible in the second round. That encounter was even optional to begin with.
- Then there was a main-boss showing up a second time, but in this encounter more like a miniboss, although at lower health, she was fighting more relentlessly.
What I mean to say is, I think it works out fine in repeating the boss if you're not just copy-pasting. Make the boss different. Tougher, maybe new moves or tricks.
Some might like that you can curb-stomp "that one boss" this time around if it's the same, but I find it boring and a waste of time. If you already defeated it the first time, the satisfaction has already been there.
I think it's a cool idea. If you have a story reason for them to regroup, it makes it even better. But as long as you don't feel like you're just reliving all the same battles again with no extra interestingness. If it's just for padding, then it'll feel like laziness.
"Link's Awakening" for the Gameboy, final boss was a shifting being that was a amalgamation of all the bosses fought in the past dungeons even morphing into Ganon, was pretty awesome (plus the sweet storyline)
Desertopa
775
I think that it's a good idea if you have a compelling story reason for it, but I think you should definitely look for ways to implement an interesting new gameplay challenge with it. For instance, let's say that you fought four bosses four-on-one considerably earlier in the game, it could be cool to have a point near the climax where your party is split and has to fight the same bosses again, but in a pair of two-on-two fights. There are a lot of different ways you can play it, but I think that plenty of them have the potential to be more interesting than just running through the same bosses again with stat increases.
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