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AN INTERESSTING SUMMONING CONCEPT?
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IndependentArt
877
IndependentArt
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Closehello,
this is my first topic and I hope I do not piss off anyone by doing everything wrong xD
well, as mentioned in my introduction, I'm working on a 2k3 classic rpg... already for 9 years, but that's not the topic.
the game has a side view battle system, as you all know it. and I'm looking now for an interesting "new" concept how to implement summoning.
I'm very FF-inspired and I wanna introduce again the common versions of summoning.
1. monster is summoned, does damage, character loses MP, known from most FF-parts.
2. monster is summoned and replaces the party and you get to control it with own commands and attacks, known from FF10.
3. monster is summond and acting automomously and disappears within some time, example: oblivion.
probably you know a lot other versions.
I favor version 2, but it would take a lot of effort to implement that. on the other hand, version 2 is a little lame, cause it's just like a stronger spell.
I'd like to invite you now to complete these versions, cause you played more rpgs than I have, for sure. or you post YOUR idea, that you allways wanted to see implemented in a game and I'm gonna do it. :D
this is my first topic and I hope I do not piss off anyone by doing everything wrong xD
well, as mentioned in my introduction, I'm working on a 2k3 classic rpg... already for 9 years, but that's not the topic.
the game has a side view battle system, as you all know it. and I'm looking now for an interesting "new" concept how to implement summoning.
I'm very FF-inspired and I wanna introduce again the common versions of summoning.
1. monster is summoned, does damage, character loses MP, known from most FF-parts.
2. monster is summoned and replaces the party and you get to control it with own commands and attacks, known from FF10.
3. monster is summond and acting automomously and disappears within some time, example: oblivion.
probably you know a lot other versions.
I favor version 2, but it would take a lot of effort to implement that. on the other hand, version 2 is a little lame, cause it's just like a stronger spell.
I'd like to invite you now to complete these versions, cause you played more rpgs than I have, for sure. or you post YOUR idea, that you allways wanted to see implemented in a game and I'm gonna do it. :D
You did everything wrong and I am now pissed off.
(kidding)
Don't do 3; if you're going to make summons act in battle for you, you might as well not have them in the first place. I'm sure there are people who would love battles to win themselves, but if you have a good enough battle system people will want to actually do things in your battles rather than watch things happening with no input.
I think my preference for how summons work is basically, as you put it, a more powerful spell; you expend some MP, a massive monster comes from under the ground/out of the sky/from a portal in space etc. and does a bunch of damage before returning from whence it came.
(kidding)
Don't do 3; if you're going to make summons act in battle for you, you might as well not have them in the first place. I'm sure there are people who would love battles to win themselves, but if you have a good enough battle system people will want to actually do things in your battles rather than watch things happening with no input.
I think my preference for how summons work is basically, as you put it, a more powerful spell; you expend some MP, a massive monster comes from under the ground/out of the sky/from a portal in space etc. and does a bunch of damage before returning from whence it came.
Demon Gazer has a fairly intuitive and simple system. You can summon/put back demons with your mc additionally to your normal attack/spell commands - different demons have different patterns, you cannot control them directly. There are certain demon spells you can use, which use up your demon gauge greatly.
You can use a demon as long as you got enough of your "Demon Gauge" which fills up as you inflict (and take?) damage. If you didn't put it back and the gauge turns zero, it'll start attacking you instead. (the demon to summon needs to be selected before you enter a battle)
SMT has quite a lot of summoning, in Devil Summoner and earlier titles as well, you have an additional gauge/currency called Magnetite. It is earned after battle like money and is used every time you summon a demon.
Which means that you cannot repeatedly summon strong demons, or can only do so when facing enemies that are strong enough to drop enough magnetite.
In earlier SMT titles, you could keep them summoned and would consume a little bit of it every step.
There are also variants where you have demons as full battle companions or where your characters themselves can turn into demons in battle. Or fuse with demons which results into the same thing (Shadow Hearts).
Or have tameable monsters like in Tales of Symphonia II which can replace other team members if you'd like to.
Thinking of summoning as a stronger spell is inherently boring. If it does the same as a spell, why have it at all? (unless it ties in well with the story)
it's just a spell with a different and often overly-long animation.
For battle purposes, summoning allows to have a different battle asset - depending on the type of the summoned beast, they can cover of weaknesses or hit them, play decoy and allow different strategies and set-ups. They bring variety to your battle style.
They can also give a temporary boost (like in Demon Gaze) which you have to time wisely in order to survive an onslaught. That makes it a little bit like resource-managing (as can the Mag-system).
I don't think option three is too bad - if you have a time limit. Otherwise it's just like a random damage or heal plus. Not fun. If you have to time it, you can actually consider it in your strategy.
But it seems to me like you'd rather have summoning for the style-factor than for the actual battle system. In that case you can go with 1 just fine to show off a little, but then you cannot possibly call it a summoning mechanic. It's flavour.
As for your options..
All can be viable if used properly .. but they all have their inherent flaws.
1) can never add anything to your mechanics.
2) can be fairly annoying because it reduces your battle options/abilities to those of the demon (I myself did not enjoy the system at all, nor FFX for that matter). It still is a different asset, though.
3) can be used more as passive or a buff without any real impact on your play-style
So in order to decide on what to use it is imperative that you know whether it is supposed to give your battles depth, style or something else.
You can use a demon as long as you got enough of your "Demon Gauge" which fills up as you inflict (and take?) damage. If you didn't put it back and the gauge turns zero, it'll start attacking you instead. (the demon to summon needs to be selected before you enter a battle)
SMT has quite a lot of summoning, in Devil Summoner and earlier titles as well, you have an additional gauge/currency called Magnetite. It is earned after battle like money and is used every time you summon a demon.
Which means that you cannot repeatedly summon strong demons, or can only do so when facing enemies that are strong enough to drop enough magnetite.
In earlier SMT titles, you could keep them summoned and would consume a little bit of it every step.
There are also variants where you have demons as full battle companions or where your characters themselves can turn into demons in battle. Or fuse with demons which results into the same thing (Shadow Hearts).
Or have tameable monsters like in Tales of Symphonia II which can replace other team members if you'd like to.
Thinking of summoning as a stronger spell is inherently boring. If it does the same as a spell, why have it at all? (unless it ties in well with the story)
it's just a spell with a different and often overly-long animation.
For battle purposes, summoning allows to have a different battle asset - depending on the type of the summoned beast, they can cover of weaknesses or hit them, play decoy and allow different strategies and set-ups. They bring variety to your battle style.
They can also give a temporary boost (like in Demon Gaze) which you have to time wisely in order to survive an onslaught. That makes it a little bit like resource-managing (as can the Mag-system).
I don't think option three is too bad - if you have a time limit. Otherwise it's just like a random damage or heal plus. Not fun. If you have to time it, you can actually consider it in your strategy.
But it seems to me like you'd rather have summoning for the style-factor than for the actual battle system. In that case you can go with 1 just fine to show off a little, but then you cannot possibly call it a summoning mechanic. It's flavour.
As for your options..
All can be viable if used properly .. but they all have their inherent flaws.
1) can never add anything to your mechanics.
2) can be fairly annoying because it reduces your battle options/abilities to those of the demon (I myself did not enjoy the system at all, nor FFX for that matter). It still is a different asset, though.
3) can be used more as passive or a buff without any real impact on your play-style
So in order to decide on what to use it is imperative that you know whether it is supposed to give your battles depth, style or something else.
suzy_cheesedreams
1480
Guardian's Crusade has Living Toys that join your party temporarily & act autonomously once you summon them, but you can summon more than one (three, maybe?). They each have a single function - healing the player/attacking all enemies/using a particular element, etc. They also return back to the player character's inventory after a certain amount of turns, or if they're (hidden) HP is depleted. You can't summon them more than once in a battle... or maybe you can't summon a particular type more than once?
Anyway, I thought that system was fun, as there was also the fun of finding each summon in the world (as most were completely optional) and if you found them all you got a special final summon from the dude who invented them. Though I never completed that sidequest, unfortunately ^_^;
Anyway, I thought that system was fun, as there was also the fun of finding each summon in the world (as most were completely optional) and if you found them all you got a special final summon from the dude who invented them. Though I never completed that sidequest, unfortunately ^_^;
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Phantom Brave is a game where all of your party members except the main character are spirits that you have to summon into battle. You control them fully of course, they are your main team. Each battle has various inanimate objects with animas, which you can bind summoned spirits to. Without an object as an anchor you cannot summon them. After several rounds the party member is un-summoned and the object is not usable a second time, but sometimes you can do various things to make more objects become available, and you can drop any party member's equipment on the ground to use it as an anchor I think, as well as using the corpses of enemies (maybe?). Different objects provide different stat modifications and also grant temporary access to new abilities.
I was going to spend like five paragraphs describing how good Phantom Brave's summoning system is but I think I'm just going to go play it instead. BRB in 600 hours.
I was going to spend like five paragraphs describing how good Phantom Brave's summoning system is but I think I'm just going to go play it instead. BRB in 600 hours.
IndependentArt
877
thanks for all your thoughts. especially kylaila.
the idea of implementing summons in my game is both, the aspect of their coolness and a stratetic profit in the battle system.
summons are important for the story, but if it turns out, that they do not benefit the battle system, I'm gonna get rid of them for sure.
meanwhile I had some own thoughts too:
- in my game I have implemented something called "weaponmods", you can dynamicly change them in battle and so produce different condtions like immunity to confusion or higher attack by using MP
- in a similar way the summons should work, but as some kind of "groupmod"
- as you call them, the produce certain conditions too, but for the whole group, if you wanna maintain these cond., the summoner loses MP every round
- I was facing some kind of gap recently cause I didn't know, how my characters could actually trigger statuseffects on the enemy, well, with groupmods I could enable them to trigger effects with normal physical attacks(that's just one possible cond.), you then have to think, if you wanna maintain the mod, cause the summoner loses MP, you can return the summon whenever you want
- but that's just one option, the other one is attack, which is kind of like that "great spell", we were talking about and uses a lot MP, after that you can't use the summon anymore in this battle, I think this creates a nice element of tension and tactic between modifying your party(which you will do mostly, I guess) or let the summoned monster attack, if you are in danger of losing the battle for instance
the idea of implementing summons in my game is both, the aspect of their coolness and a stratetic profit in the battle system.
summons are important for the story, but if it turns out, that they do not benefit the battle system, I'm gonna get rid of them for sure.
meanwhile I had some own thoughts too:
- in my game I have implemented something called "weaponmods", you can dynamicly change them in battle and so produce different condtions like immunity to confusion or higher attack by using MP
- in a similar way the summons should work, but as some kind of "groupmod"
- as you call them, the produce certain conditions too, but for the whole group, if you wanna maintain these cond., the summoner loses MP every round
- I was facing some kind of gap recently cause I didn't know, how my characters could actually trigger statuseffects on the enemy, well, with groupmods I could enable them to trigger effects with normal physical attacks(that's just one possible cond.), you then have to think, if you wanna maintain the mod, cause the summoner loses MP, you can return the summon whenever you want
- but that's just one option, the other one is attack, which is kind of like that "great spell", we were talking about and uses a lot MP, after that you can't use the summon anymore in this battle, I think this creates a nice element of tension and tactic between modifying your party(which you will do mostly, I guess) or let the summoned monster attack, if you are in danger of losing the battle for instance
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