Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
[RMVX ACE] WHAT DO YOU DISLIKE IN ATB SYSTEMS?
Posts
Pages:
1
DoubleX
5070
DoubleX
View playlists
CloseI want to know what are disliked in specific atb systems or the atb system concept in general. Just feel free to share that :)
For instance, I dislike atb systems with:
Fixed atb wait condition - Sometimes I might want to be more relaxed, so I might want the atb wait condition to be true whenever a party member can act(the loosest atb wait condition); Sometimes I might want more challenges, so I might want the atb wait condition to be true only when an action's executing or a message's displaying(the strictest atb wait condition). Therefore as a player, I want to be able to change the atb wait condition on the fly.
Hidden actor atb bars - To me, it's like hiding the actor hp, mp and/or tp bars. As atb bars display their actors' atb values, which is one of the most important information in atb system battles, I want to be able to keep track of them easily. At least, if the actor atb bars are hidden by default, I want to be able to change that to be shown instead.
For instance, I dislike atb systems with:
Fixed atb wait condition - Sometimes I might want to be more relaxed, so I might want the atb wait condition to be true whenever a party member can act(the loosest atb wait condition); Sometimes I might want more challenges, so I might want the atb wait condition to be true only when an action's executing or a message's displaying(the strictest atb wait condition). Therefore as a player, I want to be able to change the atb wait condition on the fly.
Hidden actor atb bars - To me, it's like hiding the actor hp, mp and/or tp bars. As atb bars display their actors' atb values, which is one of the most important information in atb system battles, I want to be able to keep track of them easily. At least, if the actor atb bars are hidden by default, I want to be able to change that to be shown instead.
By far, the WAITING you have to do for an ATB bar is the most frustrating aspect about it. Especially when enemies aren't attacking within the timespan, it creates a moment where there is absolutely no interaction between the player and the game, and that's just boring. I say if you are going to have such a system, it really needs to go by fast. I can't tell you how many slow-as-hell ATB systems I've encountered in games.
Skie Fortress
2394
I agree with Ratty. Though I've grit my teeth and used ATB for nearly a decade(RM2K3), it really is among my least favored turn progression systems. And the reason for that is primarily the waiting time.
That's because when you're waiting for those bars to fill up, you're literally not interacting with the battle in any way. And the slower it is, the worse it becomes. That's fundamentally why I dislike ATB anyway.
But I think it can be worked around.
First of all, speed up those bars! Secondly, provide some way for the player to interact with the battle while waiting is happening. Why is it called 'Active Time Battle', when the player is only active some of the time?
Put something in the space between waiting for turns for players to do. Anything. Something.
That's because when you're waiting for those bars to fill up, you're literally not interacting with the battle in any way. And the slower it is, the worse it becomes. That's fundamentally why I dislike ATB anyway.
But I think it can be worked around.
First of all, speed up those bars! Secondly, provide some way for the player to interact with the battle while waiting is happening. Why is it called 'Active Time Battle', when the player is only active some of the time?
Put something in the space between waiting for turns for players to do. Anything. Something.
DoubleX
5070
Agreed.
I failed to recall slow refilling atb bars as what I dislike as well, as I only encountered that issue long, long time ago.
Now I've been dealing with atb systems where the atb bars can refill from empty to full in split seconds. The base atb refill speed(before being modified by battler's stats) can even be adjusted on the fly.
But yeah, I dislike slow refilling atb bars as well, as I feel that it's wasting my time.
I failed to recall slow refilling atb bars as what I dislike as well, as I only encountered that issue long, long time ago.
Now I've been dealing with atb systems where the atb bars can refill from empty to full in split seconds. The base atb refill speed(before being modified by battler's stats) can even be adjusted on the fly.
But yeah, I dislike slow refilling atb bars as well, as I feel that it's wasting my time.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I dislike that the bars don't fill up instantly, but more than that I dislike that my success in battle is dependant on how quickly I can navigate a menu. ("Wait Mode" in Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger is actually still active mode during the first parts of the battle menu.)
So make the battles pause as soon as it's someone's turn. And then since you're doing that, there's no reason you can't remove the waiting entirely and have the bars get filled up instantly. Oh hey guess what. You just invented CTB.
So make the battles pause as soon as it's someone's turn. And then since you're doing that, there's no reason you can't remove the waiting entirely and have the bars get filled up instantly. Oh hey guess what. You just invented CTB.
DoubleX
5070
author=LockeZ
I dislike that the bars don't fill up instantly, but more than that I dislike that my success in battle is dependant on how quickly I can navigate a menu. ("Wait Mode" in Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger is actually still active mode during the first parts of the battle menu.)
So make the battles pause as soon as it's someone's turn. And then since you're doing that, there's no reason you can't remove the waiting entirely and have the bars get filled up instantly. Oh hey guess what. You just invented CTB.
So it seems to me that the entire ATB concepts won't work at all for players sharing your view. In this case, maybe CTB is indeed better :)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
CTB is suspiciously close to literally being just a direct upgrade of ATB. If Chrono Trigger didn't exist, I wouldn't even hesitate to say that ATB was completely inferior to CTB in every way.
Chrono Trigger is the only menu-based game where I ever felt like ATB was justified. The moving enemies, the attacks that hit a geometric area, and the dual techs and triple techs all worked together to make the ATB system actually be meaningful. ATB added to the game instead of just existing within the game.
There have been other ATB games that used one or even both of those systems but they were not key dimensions of combat like they were in CT. You can hit a region of enemies with certain attacks in FF13 if you time them right, for example, but the interface is too shitty and the difference is too minor and the result is too un-fun, so it doesn't really matter. It wasn't worth adding an ATB for.
Chrono Trigger is the only menu-based game where I ever felt like ATB was justified. The moving enemies, the attacks that hit a geometric area, and the dual techs and triple techs all worked together to make the ATB system actually be meaningful. ATB added to the game instead of just existing within the game.
There have been other ATB games that used one or even both of those systems but they were not key dimensions of combat like they were in CT. You can hit a region of enemies with certain attacks in FF13 if you time them right, for example, but the interface is too shitty and the difference is too minor and the result is too un-fun, so it doesn't really matter. It wasn't worth adding an ATB for.
DoubleX
5070
author=LockeZ
CTB is suspiciously close to literally being just a direct upgrade of ATB. If Chrono Trigger didn't exist, I wouldn't even hesitate to say that ATB was completely inferior to CTB in every way.
Chrono Trigger is the only menu-based game where I ever felt like ATB was justified. The moving enemies, the attacks that hit a geometric area, and the dual techs and triple techs all worked together to make the ATB system actually be meaningful. ATB added to the game instead of just existing within the game.
There have been other ATB games that used one or even both of those systems but they were not key dimensions of combat like they were in CT. You can hit a region of enemies with certain attacks in FF13 if you time them right, for example, but the interface is too shitty and the difference is too minor and the result is too un-fun, so it doesn't really matter. It wasn't worth adding an ATB for.
Technically speaking, a CTB system can be regarded as an ATB system with the fixed atb wait condition(always wait when the player can input actions) and fixed base atb fill speed(always instantly).
For players wanting to play speed chess, CTB probably won't meet their main demands, as action input speed means next to nothing in CTB; For the others, CTB's likely a better choice, as they don't need(and likely don't want) action input speed. So unless speed chess players are included in a game's targeting audience, it should stay away from using ATB :)
I want to chime in that I also really like the CTB solution, and am using it in my biggest current project. I like the idea that agility is really useful in that it boosts how often you can take turns, but without having to wait between character turns for their bar to fill up.
I'm sure that there are people out there who are fans of the ATB style, but I think that for practical purposes, CTB is a superior choice. Just my two cents ^_^
I'm sure that there are people out there who are fans of the ATB style, but I think that for practical purposes, CTB is a superior choice. Just my two cents ^_^
DoubleX
5070
author=unity
I want to chime in that I also really like the CTB solution, and am using it in my biggest current project. I like the idea that agility is really useful in that it boosts how often you can take turns, but without having to wait between character turns for their bar to fill up.
I'm sure that there are people out there who are fans of the ATB style, but I think that for practical purposes, CTB is a superior choice. Just my two cents ^_^
May you please elaborate more on "practical purposes"?
For whether CTB is superior, I think it depends on the game's targeting audiences. If they include ATB fans and/or speed chess players, ATB might be preferred over CTB. But again, I think it's a game specific decision :D
LightningLord2
230
author=LockeZ
I dislike that the bars don't fill up instantly, but more than that I dislike that my success in battle is dependant on how quickly I can navigate a menu. ("Wait Mode" in Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger is actually still active mode during the first parts of the battle menu.)
So make the battles pause as soon as it's someone's turn. And then since you're doing that, there's no reason you can't remove the waiting entirely and have the bars get filled up instantly. Oh hey guess what. You just invented CTB.
That feel when you want to post your opinion in a topic only to find someone who said everything you meant to say
I guess there's many people who just can't fathom that tactical thinking is a skill and therefore want everything to have arbitrary technical input skills.
the only game that i've played that REALLY used ATB well was Grandia 3, because just like Crono Trigger it has movement and patterns but ALSO pauses once you hit a character's turn AND has delays/cast times/interrupts/etc.
great earlygame example!
edit: especially since Defend lets you move. it's easy to miss in the video but a bunch of targetable circles appear on the ground when Alfina defends
great earlygame example!
edit: especially since Defend lets you move. it's easy to miss in the video but a bunch of targetable circles appear on the ground when Alfina defends
DoubleX
5070
author=LightningLord2I don't know, but it seems to me that different players have different wants and/or tastes.author=LockeZThat feel when you want to post your opinion in a topic only to find someone who said everything you meant to say
I dislike that the bars don't fill up instantly, but more than that I dislike that my success in battle is dependant on how quickly I can navigate a menu. ("Wait Mode" in Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger is actually still active mode during the first parts of the battle menu.)
So make the battles pause as soon as it's someone's turn. And then since you're doing that, there's no reason you can't remove the waiting entirely and have the bars get filled up instantly. Oh hey guess what. You just invented CTB.
I guess there's many people who just can't fathom that tactical thinking is a skill and therefore want everything to have arbitrary technical input skills.
While CTB can demand any tactical thinking(and hence its skill) ATB can demand, some might be unsatisfied by exercising tactical thinking alone. They might also want to challenge how quick their tactical thinking are and how quickly they can execute it, with the use of, for instance, actor, skill/item and target selection hotkeys. They might feel satisfied by being able to instantly figure out what they need to do and use those hotkeys to quickly exercise their decisions.
This reminds me of competitive RTS, where quick decision making and high APM(including hotkey masteries) are some of the necessities of being pro RTS players. Again, I don't know, but some players might want just that in turn based battles lol
Yo, Grandia III's really good and it was the first example I thought of when clicking this thread. I love that game a lot, despite of its story and characters being hideously stupid. There are numerous flaws in the battle system that revolve around its supplementary features, but the core concept is a lot of fun to play with and visualizes the turn process in a way that you have to base your movements around interrupts and speed to win. I think canceling an enemy out of a devastating skill is one of the most rewarding feelings a player can get in an ATB/Turn-based system, because it feels less like the entire battle is a game of random numbers and that you can strategize your way through it.
I think that CTB is definitely a more compelling system than ATB though, because if I have to play a game in semi-real time I'd rather just be running around in an action battle system. RPGs with a lot of static elements in battle are best utilized by treating it as a deep kind of thinking game and I've yet to see a commercial game that presents a compelling case for blending the two. Maybe someone can provide me some examples?
I think that CTB is definitely a more compelling system than ATB though, because if I have to play a game in semi-real time I'd rather just be running around in an action battle system. RPGs with a lot of static elements in battle are best utilized by treating it as a deep kind of thinking game and I've yet to see a commercial game that presents a compelling case for blending the two. Maybe someone can provide me some examples?
DoubleX
5070
author=MagiI think a more accurate differentiation between CTB, ATB and ABS, is that CTB has no space and time(input speed) control and management(although it has battler speed control and management), ATB has time(input speed) but not movements/space control and management(those introducing movements/space can't be compared with that in ABS), and ABS has both.
Yo, Grandia III's really good and it was the first example I thought of when clicking this thread. I love that game a lot, despite of its story and characters being hideously stupid. There are numerous flaws in the battle system that revolve around its supplementary features, but the core concept is a lot of fun to play with and visualizes the turn process in a way that you have to base your movements around interrupts and speed to win. I think canceling an enemy out of a devastating skill is one of the most rewarding feelings a player can get in an ATB/Turn-based system, because it feels less like the entire battle is a game of random numbers and that you can strategize your way through it.
I think that CTB is definitely a more compelling system than ATB though, because if I have to play a game in semi-real time I'd rather just be running around in an action battle system. RPGs with a lot of static elements in battle are best utilized by treating it as a deep kind of thinking game and I've yet to see a commercial game that presents a compelling case for blending the two. Maybe someone can provide me some examples?
Among all those 3 choices, for those wanting to manage neither, CTB is likely better; for those wanting to mange time(input speed) but not movements/space, ATB is likely better; for those wanting to manage both, ABS is likely better.
Of course the above is just an extremely vague generalization though :)
Pages:
1
