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LightningLord2
230
LightningLord2
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CloseIt's something I've seen very little of, although it's a very interesting approach to game design: All actions and results (or most of them) being completely independent from chance. While the main argument for luck-based design is tension and the ability to make risk/reward scenarios, determinism is favorable by making it clear what mistakes you made and strategize more accurately.
There's a few random mechanics that are generally used in RPGs, though I can't understand why it has to be done like this:
-Default 95% hit rate (why need the miss?)
-20% damage variance (doesn't bother me, but I don't see any need for it)
-Critical hits (They could be reworked to always come in certain conditions)
Lastly, I want to point out hidden information to be different from chance - having some randomness in enemy behavior forces the player to stay alert and not solve the encounter and Multiplayer benefits from players hiding their options from one another.
There's a few random mechanics that are generally used in RPGs, though I can't understand why it has to be done like this:
-Default 95% hit rate (why need the miss?)
-20% damage variance (doesn't bother me, but I don't see any need for it)
-Critical hits (They could be reworked to always come in certain conditions)
Lastly, I want to point out hidden information to be different from chance - having some randomness in enemy behavior forces the player to stay alert and not solve the encounter and Multiplayer benefits from players hiding their options from one another.
Some of Deckiller's games focussed on this - set damage for set attacks, always hit, and the like. It's a pretty cool feature but I prefer a bit of chance in my own game making.
There are games out there that use it, though.
There are games out there that use it, though.
Maybe because it is get away with balancing in a chance-based game? In a chance-heavy game (which clearly declared that everything is up to chance, and the like), the player is likely to blame his/her own luck or RNGeezus rather than the developer.
I agree that the 95% hit rate is quite terrible (looking right at you, fallout). I don't get that either. What I do, is always make sure that actors get 100% hit rate unless if they're debuffed or equipped an accuracy-lowering weapon or something. The enemies, on the other hand, get 80-something% to give the player some slight leeway and the occasional "Hah! You missed!" moment.
The damage variance is probably just a flourish of sorts. Unless if the variance is huge and is used as a mechanic (like Lightning-based damage in Diablo), it doesn't serve any purpose other than removing monotony. I don't see any problems about it though.
Critical hits. I think, a way to not make it random is to make it happen every X turns (where normal encounters get a shorter gap between crits compared to boss-fights and etc). That way, you can always expect when the next 'big one' will happen, and either use it to wipe your enemies in one go, or brace for impact from the enemies' own crit. I'm not sure how hard this is to do, but it requires that the whole game be remodelled to fit such a mechanic, or it'll only end up frustrating the player.
I agree that the 95% hit rate is quite terrible (looking right at you, fallout). I don't get that either. What I do, is always make sure that actors get 100% hit rate unless if they're debuffed or equipped an accuracy-lowering weapon or something. The enemies, on the other hand, get 80-something% to give the player some slight leeway and the occasional "Hah! You missed!" moment.
The damage variance is probably just a flourish of sorts. Unless if the variance is huge and is used as a mechanic (like Lightning-based damage in Diablo), it doesn't serve any purpose other than removing monotony. I don't see any problems about it though.
Critical hits. I think, a way to not make it random is to make it happen every X turns (where normal encounters get a shorter gap between crits compared to boss-fights and etc). That way, you can always expect when the next 'big one' will happen, and either use it to wipe your enemies in one go, or brace for impact from the enemies' own crit. I'm not sure how hard this is to do, but it requires that the whole game be remodelled to fit such a mechanic, or it'll only end up frustrating the player.
LightningLord2
230
Critical hits could be done by hitting an enemy under a certain state, which would make it predictable and allows counterplay (depending on how to inflict this one state). My games don't have any default attacks that miss on their own, making the player rely on things other than trying to force a miss/hit. I know the first Pokémon games added a 25% accuracy penalty for status moves used by the opponent.
Blame shifting seems a poor excuse for luck-based games - whether the player hates you or the RNG, he doesn't want to play your game either way.
Blame shifting seems a poor excuse for luck-based games - whether the player hates you or the RNG, he doesn't want to play your game either way.
Desertopa
775
I've seen some games that did this particularly well. Kamidori Alchemy Meister had particularly engaging strategy gameplay with very transparent and predictable mechanics, but it's also an eroge (or a game with explicit sexual content,) so be aware that that's what you're in for if you decide to check it out.
Paper Mario is probably (IMO) the best example of totally non-random mechanics. Because of the action commands, you can never miss an enemy completely, but you can miss out on doing the full damage to them. Everything is left in the hands of the player and how skilled they are at the various move inputs. It makes the game feel really definite.
That, and when an enemy becomes immune to hits the game does a very good job of visually informing the player, so there's no confusion as to why you missed or what math is going on in the background and deciding your success.
I think in terms of RM we see a lot of use of the mechanics you mentioned because they're just default in the engine and either unchangeable/hard to edit (for the older editors) or people don't know they can/are too lazy to do it (for the newer ones).
That, and when an enemy becomes immune to hits the game does a very good job of visually informing the player, so there's no confusion as to why you missed or what math is going on in the background and deciding your success.
I think in terms of RM we see a lot of use of the mechanics you mentioned because they're just default in the engine and either unchangeable/hard to edit (for the older editors) or people don't know they can/are too lazy to do it (for the newer ones).
Paper Mario RNG is super frustrating because it isn't there* until suddenly it is for your strongest move and you would've won the fight already if the game didn't give you a horrible Power Bounce cap. 
Mechanically I prefer the M&L games since attacking and dodging is a bit more involved than Paper Mario. Unfortunately the series suffers a lot more of "get on with it already" with overly designed, convolution moves that you do over and over again. It really drags the game on.
* this excludes enemy AI RNG
Mechanically I prefer the M&L games since attacking and dodging is a bit more involved than Paper Mario. Unfortunately the series suffers a lot more of "get on with it already" with overly designed, convolution moves that you do over and over again. It really drags the game on.
* this excludes enemy AI RNG
EDPVincent
12
I prefer combat to be as deterministic as possible, because I want the success to be entirely reliant on my skills, instead of in RNG. On the other hand, a little randomness can improve an otherwise deterministic combat system if done correctly.
Dark Souls for example, has a very good application of determinism and RNG. Dodges, criticals, damage and status effects are completely deterministic, but the enemies will choose their moves mostly at random from the ones that are adecuate for the situation. Application of this to turn-based RPGs, however, may prove to be a bit trickier, and in my humble opinion, I think it's best to go all the way to deterministic. I, myself, have always made my battle systems deterministic, and centered them around other gameplay challengues than risk-reward scenarios.
Dark Souls for example, has a very good application of determinism and RNG. Dodges, criticals, damage and status effects are completely deterministic, but the enemies will choose their moves mostly at random from the ones that are adecuate for the situation. Application of this to turn-based RPGs, however, may prove to be a bit trickier, and in my humble opinion, I think it's best to go all the way to deterministic. I, myself, have always made my battle systems deterministic, and centered them around other gameplay challengues than risk-reward scenarios.
Pale Echoes has very deterministic gameplay, and I enjoyed playing that more than I enjoyed playing Remnants of Isolation.
The RPG doesn't have very much RP in its G any longer. Maybe more of them need to go all the way. The generations are changing, and that role-playing which used to define the genre isn't very meaningful in this day and age.
The RPG doesn't have very much RP in its G any longer. Maybe more of them need to go all the way. The generations are changing, and that role-playing which used to define the genre isn't very meaningful in this day and age.
author=LightningLord2
-Default 95% hit rate (why need the miss?)
-20% damage variance (doesn't bother me, but I don't see any need for it)
-Critical hits (They could be reworked to always come in certain conditions)
Some games use skill rather than chance, like Paper Mario. A little QTE to determine if a hit is a crit of if it does half damage.
LightningLord2
230
While you can make combat deterministic with a timed hit or an input combo, this wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Very few games that are highly strategic attempt a deterministic approach.
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