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ARE THERE EXAMPLES OF A BATTLE SYSTEM WHERE MAX HP/MP DECREASES?
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Roots
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Roots
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CloseI'm working on a JRPG that is custom built and we recently designed and implemented a feature that we call battle fatigue. In a nutshell, instead of reducing your HP/SP (we use SP instead of MP) in battles, we reduce the max HP/SP instead. Are there any other JRPGs out there that have a system like this? I've played dozens in my life and I don't recall ever seeing anything like this.
Here are the motivations that we have for our battle system that gave birth to this design.
And here's a more detailed explanation about the feature itself.
There are several implications to player strategy as a result of battle fatigue. If the player is constantly using their most powerful abilities to end a battle quickly, toward the end of the dungeon they'll find that their max SP is very low and they will struggle a little more against tougher enemies and bosses. At the same time, if the player is too conservative with their skill usage and takes too much damage from drawn-out battles, their HP fatigue climbs greatly and they have a lower max HP when they face the tougher enemies deeper into a dungeon. The player must develop a strategy and carefully manage both types of battle fatigue to be successful.
1. Are there any other JRPGs out there that use a similar mechanic?
2. As a player, what are your initial thoughts/impressions about this type of battle design?
I know it's hard to get a strong opinion toward something that is just words and an idea without playing it first, so I'm looking more for just a "gut feeling" sort of impression. We already have this feature fully working in the game, but we still need to do some re-balancing work to fully realize it.
Here are the motivations that we have for our battle system that gave birth to this design.
- Remove the tediousness of players needing to go to the party menu to heal/restore HP and SP after battle
- Every character skill should be viable to use in any battle; We do not want players to only use their most basic skills for normal encounters and only their most powerful skills for boss fights
- The player should be penalized if they use their most powerful attacks too frequently
- Players should have a long-term strategy to a dungeon. They shouldn't chose actions thinking only about the current battle, but future battles as well.
- Determine a way for SP to restore naturally during battle so that the player feels encouraged to use more powerful skills regularly in battle
And here's a more detailed explanation about the feature itself.
- All characters are restored to full HP and SP at the end of every battle.
- SP regenerates a small amount every turn in battle.
- When a character loses HP, they accumulate HP fatigue. This fatigue reduces the max health HP of the character.
- When a character consumes SP (by using a skill), they accumulate SP fatigue. This fatigue reduces their max SP of the character.
- Fatigue persists between battles, meaning that the more battles the character party fights, the lower their max HP and max SP becomes.
- Fatigue is only removed by visiting an inn and resting. It is not something you can remove with an item or other readily available mechanic.
- Characters have two attributes that determine fatigue accumulation: stamina for HP fatigue, and resilience for SP fatigue.
- A higher stamina attribute causes HP fatigue to accumulate more slowly. The same holds true for resilience and SP fatigue.
There are several implications to player strategy as a result of battle fatigue. If the player is constantly using their most powerful abilities to end a battle quickly, toward the end of the dungeon they'll find that their max SP is very low and they will struggle a little more against tougher enemies and bosses. At the same time, if the player is too conservative with their skill usage and takes too much damage from drawn-out battles, their HP fatigue climbs greatly and they have a lower max HP when they face the tougher enemies deeper into a dungeon. The player must develop a strategy and carefully manage both types of battle fatigue to be successful.
1. Are there any other JRPGs out there that use a similar mechanic?
2. As a player, what are your initial thoughts/impressions about this type of battle design?
I know it's hard to get a strong opinion toward something that is just words and an idea without playing it first, so I'm looking more for just a "gut feeling" sort of impression. We already have this feature fully working in the game, but we still need to do some re-balancing work to fully realize it.
Depends what costs the skills have? At some point they won't be able to use the skills. I think the way you explained it players would have to just figure out one strategy to run through dungeons that conserves as much HP / SP as possible.
I would suggest having tents handy that can be used in specific areas. Players will get annoyed at having to go to inns.
Conmon
633
That's actually a very interesting idea. The only JRPG I can think of with decreasing max health is Demon's Souls or Dark Souls 2, the former halves your health when you die (until you kill a boss and regain your human form I think), and the latter just chips away at your max health the more you die, unless you revive yourself into human form.
That's the closest example I can think of, but those games lack the rest of the ideas you've got. I feel like the "fatigue" thing might get annoying if it can only be remedied at inns, so you could consider like an energy drink item (or whatever fits the atmosphere of the game... energy flask or something). If it's realism you're going for, I think that could squash those kinds of complaints, but then you might consider having camps you could set up that act as mini-inns. Maybe they clear fatigue, but they lack whatever extra bonuses sleeping in a nice comfy inn bed would give you.
I mean, this is all just wild ideas since all I know about your game is the battle system!
EDIT: Damn, then again, having one place (or one type of place) to clear your fatigue might help streamline the gameplay.
That's the closest example I can think of, but those games lack the rest of the ideas you've got. I feel like the "fatigue" thing might get annoying if it can only be remedied at inns, so you could consider like an energy drink item (or whatever fits the atmosphere of the game... energy flask or something). If it's realism you're going for, I think that could squash those kinds of complaints, but then you might consider having camps you could set up that act as mini-inns. Maybe they clear fatigue, but they lack whatever extra bonuses sleeping in a nice comfy inn bed would give you.
I mean, this is all just wild ideas since all I know about your game is the battle system!
EDIT: Damn, then again, having one place (or one type of place) to clear your fatigue might help streamline the gameplay.
Off-hand, I think of Breath of Fire 3. If a character is unconscious after a battle concludes, that character is recovered (to some degree?), but, that character's max hp goes down until the party rests. The impression I get from this mechanic is a "Make sure your party stays healthy!" message more than anything else.
As for your system? I kinda feel that Max HP/MP should be increased after resting, depending on how much fatigue was accumulated? I dunno. It might be something to fiddle with for a test-build.
As for your system? I kinda feel that Max HP/MP should be increased after resting, depending on how much fatigue was accumulated? I dunno. It might be something to fiddle with for a test-build.
Roots
14
We're going to cap the amount of fatigue that you accumulate to some degree. For example, the max HP/SP can not drop below 10% of the true max. So you'll always be able to use some of your skills, but the more costly ones may become unavailable if you really accumulate a lot of max SP.
It's likely that later in the game there will be more ways to restore fatigue, but in the early game we don't want this, although there is one scripted event where fatigue is automatically restored before the first boss fight. I'm not sure about fully restoring fatigue, but maybe we can have items that restore a quarter or a half of the fatigue you've accumulated. So you can never fully restore your fatigue outside of an inn unless you really use a lot of these items (and they should be costly).
Personally, I dislike it when RPGs regularly have "full restore stations" in the middle of dungeons. When I go into enemy territory, I want there to be a sense of fear where I hope I'm prepared for what's inside, or can make it back out alive if I'm not. If a player grew the expectation that there would be some point in every dungeon where they could use a tent and restore all their fatigue, the battle fatigue design would lose some of it's luster and purpose. Especially if restoration of fatigue was cheap, then a player can simply roam nearby the restore point, use their powerful skills over and over to win battles quickly and easily, and essentially turn the game into an easy grinding fest for level building. I don't want that.
If you want more information on the game, our RPG maker page is here: Hero of Allacrost. Some other noteworthy features about our map/battle design that have implications on battle fatigue:
It's likely that later in the game there will be more ways to restore fatigue, but in the early game we don't want this, although there is one scripted event where fatigue is automatically restored before the first boss fight. I'm not sure about fully restoring fatigue, but maybe we can have items that restore a quarter or a half of the fatigue you've accumulated. So you can never fully restore your fatigue outside of an inn unless you really use a lot of these items (and they should be costly).
Personally, I dislike it when RPGs regularly have "full restore stations" in the middle of dungeons. When I go into enemy territory, I want there to be a sense of fear where I hope I'm prepared for what's inside, or can make it back out alive if I'm not. If a player grew the expectation that there would be some point in every dungeon where they could use a tent and restore all their fatigue, the battle fatigue design would lose some of it's luster and purpose. Especially if restoration of fatigue was cheap, then a player can simply roam nearby the restore point, use their powerful skills over and over to win battles quickly and easily, and essentially turn the game into an easy grinding fest for level building. I don't want that.
If you want more information on the game, our RPG maker page is here: Hero of Allacrost. Some other noteworthy features about our map/battle design that have implications on battle fatigue:
- There are no random encounters. Enemy sprites roam the map and engage the player if they move too closely to them.
- You can't run away from a battle that has started. Instead, you run away from enemy sprites on the map if you don't want to fight.
- If you lose a battle, you can retry it. You have three total attempts to win a battle. Each time you lose, the amount of rewards (XP, "gold", etc) is reduced if you win on the next attempt.
- There's no generic "Fight" command. All characters come with a set of skills that consume some amount of SP to execute.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In a system like this I would never use skills that cost SP unless they were absolutely required for victory, because using them on normal enemies prevents me from being able to use as many of them on the boss, moreso than in any other game. This seems to go highly contrary to your stated goal of "We do not want players to only use their most basic skills for normal encounters."
Two of your stated goals are:
- Get the player to use skills in every battle, not just boss battles
- Get the player to care about conserving resources for later battles
...These two things are incompatible. In fact, they're more than just incompatible - they're literal opposites. They can be reworded as "The player should be encouraged to use more skills" and "The player should be encouraged to use fewer skills." You will have to pick one design goal and abandon the other, or you will end up with a game that doesn't know what it's doing and keeps having contradicting gameplay.
I suspect what you really mean is "Get the player to care about conserving resources for later battles, but figure out a way to do that without making everything except boss fights really boring." Because in most games, the skills that don't cost MP are really boring.
The key thing you wanna do to solve this is probably going to be making it so the player is allowed to use a limited number of skills in normal battles without any long-term problem, and is punished for using to many. Your Max SP reduction system isn't accomplishing this. It's making it so the ideal number of skills to use per battle is zero. (The Max HP reduction, in theory, makes it so it's sometimes best to use SP to prevent HP loss, but... in practice, that sounds really REALLY hard to predict and balance.)
I haven't seen a system like yours exactly, but I have seen the following systems:
- In Dragon Age: Origins, HP is refilled to max after each battle, but each time you die, your max HP is reduced. Max HP only gets restored by returning to your camp or by using a semi-rare healing item. This helps make sure that the player's performance in battle does have some effect - if you do badly there's some negative consequence that lasts beyond the end of the battle, despite your HP being refilled.
- In the SaGa series, HP is refilled to max after each battle, but characters have another stat called LP. Characters that reach 0 HP and die can still be attacked by enemies, and lose 1 LP each time they're hit while dead. If they reach 0 LP, they are permanently dead for the rest of the dungeon (or the rest of the game, in some cases). Most of the games in the series restore your LP either in inns or at specific points in the story.
Reducing max MP is much rarer, and I really question both the purpose and the effectiveness of the idea. If you want a way to make the player care about resources without making battles be boring, it seems like just limiting the number of recovery items the player can carry and giving them a free full-heal before each boss fight would be simpler.
Two of your stated goals are:
- Get the player to use skills in every battle, not just boss battles
- Get the player to care about conserving resources for later battles
...These two things are incompatible. In fact, they're more than just incompatible - they're literal opposites. They can be reworded as "The player should be encouraged to use more skills" and "The player should be encouraged to use fewer skills." You will have to pick one design goal and abandon the other, or you will end up with a game that doesn't know what it's doing and keeps having contradicting gameplay.
I suspect what you really mean is "Get the player to care about conserving resources for later battles, but figure out a way to do that without making everything except boss fights really boring." Because in most games, the skills that don't cost MP are really boring.
The key thing you wanna do to solve this is probably going to be making it so the player is allowed to use a limited number of skills in normal battles without any long-term problem, and is punished for using to many. Your Max SP reduction system isn't accomplishing this. It's making it so the ideal number of skills to use per battle is zero. (The Max HP reduction, in theory, makes it so it's sometimes best to use SP to prevent HP loss, but... in practice, that sounds really REALLY hard to predict and balance.)
I haven't seen a system like yours exactly, but I have seen the following systems:
- In Dragon Age: Origins, HP is refilled to max after each battle, but each time you die, your max HP is reduced. Max HP only gets restored by returning to your camp or by using a semi-rare healing item. This helps make sure that the player's performance in battle does have some effect - if you do badly there's some negative consequence that lasts beyond the end of the battle, despite your HP being refilled.
- In the SaGa series, HP is refilled to max after each battle, but characters have another stat called LP. Characters that reach 0 HP and die can still be attacked by enemies, and lose 1 LP each time they're hit while dead. If they reach 0 LP, they are permanently dead for the rest of the dungeon (or the rest of the game, in some cases). Most of the games in the series restore your LP either in inns or at specific points in the story.
Reducing max MP is much rarer, and I really question both the purpose and the effectiveness of the idea. If you want a way to make the player care about resources without making battles be boring, it seems like just limiting the number of recovery items the player can carry and giving them a free full-heal before each boss fight would be simpler.
Mega Man Battle Network 4 had certain, powerful attacks that permanently decreased your Max HP by 1 every time you used one, justified in the plot that these attacks were powerful but ultimately evil. A great idea in theory but since I think they lock you into a bad ending route if you use too many of them, it was only really explored if you were using them on purpose.
There was one other RPG that had a second poison debuff that decreased your Max HP by the same amount with each tick until it was healed. I want to say it was Final Fantasy XII. But I do remember it was just a debuff and not story-related.
There was one other RPG that had a second poison debuff that decreased your Max HP by the same amount with each tick until it was healed. I want to say it was Final Fantasy XII. But I do remember it was just a debuff and not story-related.
I agree with everything that LockeZ said. I really don't understand why you're doing this except to be different, as it just sounds like it's doubly punishing to the player.
FFXIII-2 had max HP damage as part of quite a few battles and skills, which was fun and pretty threatening at times. There were ways to recover and it lasted only for that battle, though. I wouldn't mind that sort of temporary MHP damage in more games! In a game like Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant, where SP is readily restored via cheap items, I feel like you could totally get away with temporary MSP damage too.
so basically, could you restate your goals for us? they do seem incredibly conflicting.
FFXIII-2 had max HP damage as part of quite a few battles and skills, which was fun and pretty threatening at times. There were ways to recover and it lasted only for that battle, though. I wouldn't mind that sort of temporary MHP damage in more games! In a game like Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant, where SP is readily restored via cheap items, I feel like you could totally get away with temporary MSP damage too.
so basically, could you restate your goals for us? they do seem incredibly conflicting.
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