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[DESIGN/MARKETING] WHY SO SECRETIVE?
Posts
Kaempfer
1932
Kaempfer
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CloseHaven't there be a few games from RMN that have been sold by people in far away (far away from North America) lands? Those were all finished, if I recall.
I have to admit that sometimes posting about something I've done makes me feel like I've done something, but nobody ever comments or pays any attention to it so then I just feel bad.
So I am secretive because nobody cares ;_;
I have to admit that sometimes posting about something I've done makes me feel like I've done something, but nobody ever comments or pays any attention to it so then I just feel bad.
So I am secretive because nobody cares ;_;
author=Kaempferauthor=Rine
@Liberty: Hell, technically Minecraft was inspired by Infiniminer, Dwarf Fortress, and Dungeon Keeper.author=LibertyYou can't accuse Minecraft clones of being Minecraft clones and then say that Minecraft just took "inspiration" from Infiniminer. The original Minecraft prototypes (before Notch discovered Infiniminer) looked like old first-person DOS RPGs. He found the combination of crafting and Infiniminer that appealed to a lot of people which is a skill in its own right, but a lot of the "mine blocks!" games that are out now are equally different from Minecraft as Minecraft is from Infiniminer (many are more so).
Inspiration is different from straight out stealing, though. It might have been inspired by those games but it stands alone as being very separate and different in the way it plays and looks.
I can. There's a huge difference - the product that got released is very different from Infiniminer (the in-game aim, the way it plays, how it plays, even the graphical variation - it is a digging game where you can build, but the idea was to 'race to treasure' via mining, against others. While it used isometric and cuboid graphics, and you could place blocks after digging them up, you couldn't change the blocks, craft or fight enemies. It's a very, very different game to minecraft.)
Meanwhile a lot of the clones are just that - clones. They even use the same style and deliberately invoke 'minecraft' in their imagery and sales pitch. Changing one thing or two things doesn't make it different - unless they change stuff completely. I mean, okay, Emperion is very different to Minecraft even though they share the idea of mining and exploration and monster battling, but something like Mineblock or Minecraft Clone (yes, that is it's name) is pretty much stealing the idea and trying (and failing) to run with it. So calling out clones is very much a thing you can do.
Inspiration != theft, but there's a line between what is inspiration and what is theft. Taking an idea and changing it to fit your game is different to taking the whole concept of a finished and well-known game and editing one or two things to avoid copyright claims.
Kaempfer
1932
Which Minecraft clones in specific are you referring to? Maybe I'm just behind on my clone knowledge.
There's a whole lot of them. I'm not talking about games like Cube World, which are definitely inspired by Minecraft and very likely wouldn't have been made without how big it is/was, but take the ideas and reinterpret them into a whole different game, but ones that basically just remake the game, using the same system and such with slight graphical changes and the like... yeah, those are what I'm talking about. They're basically remaking the game to sell it so that they cash in on a suddenly popular thing, but don't actually bother to make their own game or ideas.
Here's a general list (some don't quite make it properly, but most of them are basically Minecraft with slight changes).
https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/lx5g3/complete_list_of_minecraft_clones
And another list:
http://gameblaster64.xandorus.com/list-of-minecraft-clones
Again, some on those lists don't count, but a hell of a lot of them do.
I mean, these come from three different games, not one of them Minecraft.
http://gameblaster64.xandorus.com/sites/default/files/field/image/minetest-screenshot.jpg
https://lh5.ggpht.com/Sm04SGJKMJrG4ffWC401NNRdTZYWQHlUP7ntRgJN0I9ZLmc7l83VqyMVk_aXSBlAiLc=h900
http://blog.movingblocks.net/wp-content/uploads/Blockmania-11.png
Here's a general list (some don't quite make it properly, but most of them are basically Minecraft with slight changes).
https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/lx5g3/complete_list_of_minecraft_clones
And another list:
http://gameblaster64.xandorus.com/list-of-minecraft-clones
Again, some on those lists don't count, but a hell of a lot of them do.
I mean, these come from three different games, not one of them Minecraft.
http://gameblaster64.xandorus.com/sites/default/files/field/image/minetest-screenshot.jpg
https://lh5.ggpht.com/Sm04SGJKMJrG4ffWC401NNRdTZYWQHlUP7ntRgJN0I9ZLmc7l83VqyMVk_aXSBlAiLc=h900
http://blog.movingblocks.net/wp-content/uploads/Blockmania-11.png
Kaempfer
1932
welp I didn't realize there were quite this many clones, my bad. I rescind my earlier statement.
These are pretty much all listed (by the creator in many cases) as Minecraft clones, though. I'm sure most of these didn't have theft in mind so much as some weird half-hearted attempt to make their "own" version, with blackjack and hookers. All this wasted time and talent making a game that already exists. wry? wry it happen?
These are pretty much all listed (by the creator in many cases) as Minecraft clones, though. I'm sure most of these didn't have theft in mind so much as some weird half-hearted attempt to make their "own" version, with blackjack and hookers. All this wasted time and talent making a game that already exists. wry? wry it happen?
Rine
1378
To be fair, making your own version of a game is how a lot of things get improved upon. However, directly ripping assets and claiming it as your own is outright theft.
Law-wise, gameplay mechanics are technically not copyrightable, but the assets and execution are. So, open world, building things with blocks and crafting is not protected under copyright, anyone can take that idea and make something from it. A lot of the 'clones' that Liberty listed look like they just outright steal the assets (though how much you could actually fight over 'pixelly block that looks like dirt' is iffy...)
Key point is though, people outright stole things from minecraft after it was already a massive success, and the clones I'm sure barely scratch any profit/credit from it. I sincerely doubt thieves are trolling RMN for vague concept ideas to steal.
Law-wise, gameplay mechanics are technically not copyrightable, but the assets and execution are. So, open world, building things with blocks and crafting is not protected under copyright, anyone can take that idea and make something from it. A lot of the 'clones' that Liberty listed look like they just outright steal the assets (though how much you could actually fight over 'pixelly block that looks like dirt' is iffy...)
Key point is though, people outright stole things from minecraft after it was already a massive success, and the clones I'm sure barely scratch any profit/credit from it. I sincerely doubt thieves are trolling RMN for vague concept ideas to steal.
Tell that to Square who had/has a copyright of the ...was it ATB? OR TBB? One of the early battle systems. Yeahhhh.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
That patent expired in 2012, for what that's worth. So anyone can use ATB now.
Fun fact: It hadn't expired when RPG Maker 2003 was released. I wonder if Enterbrain paid Square for the rights to use it, or got in legal trouble? This is almost certainly why the next several versions of RPG Maker didn't include the ATB.
Fun fact: It hadn't expired when RPG Maker 2003 was released. I wonder if Enterbrain paid Square for the rights to use it, or got in legal trouble? This is almost certainly why the next several versions of RPG Maker didn't include the ATB.
Rine
1378
Also as a side note: The patent probably wasn't enforceable even when it was valid. The US Patent office is notorious for assigning patents to vague, random shit, or things that someone else has examples of prior work dating ages before. Hence why we have a rather large problem with patent trolls, using patents that are basically 'extremely common thing + internet'.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Square actually did invent the ATB though. The first game to ever use it was FF4, and it was their signature battle system that set them apart from the rest of the genre for the next decade.
Anyway, regarding IP theft, I don't really see what the big deal is if someone "steals" something that you're giving away for free. All they can really steal is the credit - and you can take that right back, since turnabout is fair play. If they post your game somewhere and claim they made it, all you have to do is claim that they're you. Identity theft as a solution for property theft!
...I don't actually recommend doing that, though I'm sure it would cause hilarious shenanigans. Just email the site owners of whatever site they posted it on.
The much more common reason I see for people not wanting to post their ideas publically isn't that they're worried about theft, but that they're worried about spoilers. Guys. That's even stupider. You can't get help from someone without spoiling them. It's gonna happen, deal with it. The people you're talking to are interested as developers, not as players. It's not like it's going to keep people from playing and enjoying the game when it's done - in fact, it basically guarantees you another player, since everyone enjoys seeing the fruits of their own work.
Anyway, regarding IP theft, I don't really see what the big deal is if someone "steals" something that you're giving away for free. All they can really steal is the credit - and you can take that right back, since turnabout is fair play. If they post your game somewhere and claim they made it, all you have to do is claim that they're you. Identity theft as a solution for property theft!
...I don't actually recommend doing that, though I'm sure it would cause hilarious shenanigans. Just email the site owners of whatever site they posted it on.
The much more common reason I see for people not wanting to post their ideas publically isn't that they're worried about theft, but that they're worried about spoilers. Guys. That's even stupider. You can't get help from someone without spoiling them. It's gonna happen, deal with it. The people you're talking to are interested as developers, not as players. It's not like it's going to keep people from playing and enjoying the game when it's done - in fact, it basically guarantees you another player, since everyone enjoys seeing the fruits of their own work.
author=Infinite
Woosh. This is bad. Because, as a dev, I feel I must keep in touch with my audience and show them what I'm doing constantly in order to captivate them and have them play my game when it is done. If I don't do it, nobody will know it's done!
But I definitely feel the negative side effects of this!
Rine
1378
I think the key difference is goals verses finished. If you talk about your goals, your brain tends to interpret it as actually having doing it. Talking about what you have finished is fine, because its done.
Its why I blog about the characters I've finished in my game, but not the ones sitting in my notebook. If I blog about them, it'll feel like I accomplished something in my game...when all I really did was talk about some ideas.
Its why I blog about the characters I've finished in my game, but not the ones sitting in my notebook. If I blog about them, it'll feel like I accomplished something in my game...when all I really did was talk about some ideas.
That's why I recommend talking out new game ideas when you have a game you have to finish still - it tricks your mind into thinking you've -done- something on the new ideas (and furnishes them out a bit more, which you can write down about for later) and makes you feel tired of them from it. Thus, time to give yourself a break from that game by ... going and doing the one you've actually got going! Ta-Dah!
Rine
1378
The sad thing is, that's an important part of design. Its better to have people pick it apart in the beginning, before you spend hours working on it and realize that it is terrible. Or I guess what is more likely in those sorts of personalities, make it, then whine that no one understands their 'vision', and that their product is clearly just awesome.
Your game is not your baby, its a piece of culture that should be subject to criticism like any other. Of course, its not limited to just indie/rpgmaker communities, plenty of serious devs whine about how people don't understand how hard it is to make a game, when people tell them their game sucks...or chefs whine about how hard it is to be a chef when people tell them their food sucks...
Your game is not your baby, its a piece of culture that should be subject to criticism like any other. Of course, its not limited to just indie/rpgmaker communities, plenty of serious devs whine about how people don't understand how hard it is to make a game, when people tell them their game sucks...or chefs whine about how hard it is to be a chef when people tell them their food sucks...
Infinite
2103
author=JosephSeraphauthor=InfiniteWoosh. This is bad. Because, as a dev, I feel I must keep in touch with my audience and show them what I'm doing constantly in order to captivate them and have them play my game when it is done. If I don't do it, nobody will know it's done!
But I definitely feel the negative side effects of this!
One of the points made in the video is how it can be okay to share your goals, as long as you are aware of the tricks your mind can play. Sharing in such a way that suggests there is still work to be done, is a kind of reverse psychology tactic that can be helpful.
I look to the countless Demos that never graduate to full games. People release their demo, feel like they've accomplished something, and lose motivation to actually complete their game.
Everyone is different though; you may be energized and motivated when someone compliments your ideas and ambitions, but others may feel validated and never act on them.
author=Infinite
I look to the countless Demos that never graduate to full games. People release their demo, feel like they've accomplished something, and lose motivation to actually complete their game.
Which is why the timing over the demo is crucial for not only the players, but for creators, too.
I'm guilty of the whole "Release a demo and forget it" thing. Several times in fact. Which is why I waited until my current project was past the halfway mark in development before marketing it outside of friends/family. I had much more than the demo completed when I put it out, because I wanted to set a reasonable expectation for myself: I have enough of it done that I'd be obligated to see it through to the end. And it also means that the project far enough along where it would be more difficult to steal assets and the idea.
author=JosephSeraph
Woosh. This is bad. Because, as a dev, I feel I must keep in touch with my audience and show them what I'm doing constantly in order to captivate them and have them play my game when it is done. If I don't do it, nobody will know it's done!
But I definitely feel the negative side effects of this!
I think part of the solution to this is to not bother releasing a game page until your game is right near completion. It would make the window you have to captivate your audience a bit shorter and more manageable.
