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BUYING POWERFUL ITEMS NEAR END-GAME WITHOUT MAKING THE PLAYER OP
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Luiishu535
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CloseAs I've finally reached the final world/level of my game, I've started to work on a special shop I had planned. In this shop, you'll be able to buy some of most powerful equipment in the game, but for a high price. You'll also be able to buy most of the best Items in the game. Since I'm going to make the Final Boss of the game the absolute toughest, I want the Player to pretty much use all kinds of Items they've got. It's the Final Boss; it's now or never.
The dilemma here is that I'm worried about making the Player too overpowered. This is a little concern, since the shop will be available at the start of the last level/world (and there will be about 10-15 mandatory boss battles) before the Player reaches the final stretch and dungeon of the game.
Here are the Items I'm worried about:
First Aid Kit: Restores 1500 HP and cures status ailments of all characters. Price: 2000 Gold
Holo Shield Generator: A shield generator that generates a temporary holo shield for the entire party for four turns! Guards all elements. Price: 3000 Gold
Holy Cross: A sacred cross that adds Auto-Life to one ally. Revives an ally immediately after being KOed. Price: 3000 Gold
Master Bomb: A bomb that does massive damage to one enemy. Deals about 3000 damage. Price: 6000 Gold
Super Mana Water: Restores 300 MP of all characters. Price: 3000 Gold
Here are some Equipment I'm worried about a tad:
Resistance Orb: Protects against Poison, Darkness, Silence, Confusion, Sleep and Paralysis. Price: 60000 Gold
Sage Ring: A ring that halves the amount of MP consumption. Price: 40000 Gold
EXP Ring: A magical ring that doubles Experience gained for the user. Price: 15000 Gold
Estimated amount of Gold the Player will have at the addition of the shop: 34823 Gold
Potential Problems:
All Items and Equipment listed above can be bought an unlimited amount of times, but you can't keep more than 99 of of each item. Being able to equip EXP Rings for all party members can encourage grinding. I've lowered the Max Level from 99 to 50. A good strategy and prepared party is the keys to success. Grinding should NOT be necessary to beat the game.
Potential Solutions:
- Copy all Items in the database and make the ones available in the shop a lot more expensive.
- Instead of the above, nerf down the Items in the shop so that they're not too powerful.
- Some Equipment, like the Resistance Orb, can be found instead somewhere in the game as a treasure or reward from a Boss.
- Simply remove certain Items that feel too OP from the shop.
- Not ALL of the Items will be available at the start of the final world. Instead, they'll be available when the player has reached the final dungeon.
- Limited stock of certain Items in shop or inventory.
So, what do you think about this? What solution(s) do you think would be best for the game? Do you have a different solution? Should any Items listed above be removed from the shop entirely?
My goal with these Items/Equipment is to make them useful. I don't want them to necessarily break the game's balance.
Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!
The dilemma here is that I'm worried about making the Player too overpowered. This is a little concern, since the shop will be available at the start of the last level/world (and there will be about 10-15 mandatory boss battles) before the Player reaches the final stretch and dungeon of the game.
Here are the Items I'm worried about:
Master Bomb: A bomb that does massive damage to one enemy. Deals about 3000 damage. Price: 6000 Gold
Super Mana Water: Restores 300 MP of all characters. Price: 3000 Gold
Here are some Equipment I'm worried about a tad:
Sage Ring: A ring that halves the amount of MP consumption. Price: 40000 Gold
Estimated amount of Gold the Player will have at the addition of the shop: 34823 Gold
Potential Problems:
All Items and Equipment listed above can be bought an unlimited amount of times, but you can't keep more than 99 of of each item. Being able to equip EXP Rings for all party members can encourage grinding. I've lowered the Max Level from 99 to 50. A good strategy and prepared party is the keys to success. Grinding should NOT be necessary to beat the game.
Potential Solutions:
- Copy all Items in the database and make the ones available in the shop a lot more expensive.
- Instead of the above, nerf down the Items in the shop so that they're not too powerful.
- Some Equipment, like the Resistance Orb, can be found instead somewhere in the game as a treasure or reward from a Boss.
- Simply remove certain Items that feel too OP from the shop.
- Not ALL of the Items will be available at the start of the final world. Instead, they'll be available when the player has reached the final dungeon.
- Limited stock of certain Items in shop or inventory.
So, what do you think about this? What solution(s) do you think would be best for the game? Do you have a different solution? Should any Items listed above be removed from the shop entirely?
My goal with these Items/Equipment is to make them useful. I don't want them to necessarily break the game's balance.
Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated!
The simplest way to combat end-of-game grinding is to design your game to get the player to the level cap around the 90% mark. From there on out, they have to rely on gear and skill to manage -- you can't possibly grind it out.
My general suggestion for endgame gear is to do sidegrades, not upgrades. For example:
Hero Sword has 120 ATK and 15 DEF
Mana Blade has 120 ATK and a 50% chance to Silence a foe
Hero Armor has 70 DEF and halves Dark damage taken
Gargoyle Plate has 65 DEF and 30 MDF
You get the idea? Let the player augment their characters while hovering around the same power level. Customization instead of just "this is the de facto best item"!
It's really difficult to talk about your items listed in the OP because we have no frame of reference for your game's economy. I personally would rather hide the best stuff in dungeons anyway but that's just me.
My general suggestion for endgame gear is to do sidegrades, not upgrades. For example:
Hero Sword has 120 ATK and 15 DEF
Mana Blade has 120 ATK and a 50% chance to Silence a foe
Hero Armor has 70 DEF and halves Dark damage taken
Gargoyle Plate has 65 DEF and 30 MDF
You get the idea? Let the player augment their characters while hovering around the same power level. Customization instead of just "this is the de facto best item"!
It's really difficult to talk about your items listed in the OP because we have no frame of reference for your game's economy. I personally would rather hide the best stuff in dungeons anyway but that's just me.
LightningLord2
230
How about making the bosses bundled into groups (lets say 4 groups with 3 bosses) and beating each batch unlocks a shop? Those shops could have generic power items along with a variety of weapons and armors, possibly centered around a certain playstyle, character or class.
@Craze:
That's something I'd like to aim for (reach close to the level cap near the end, maybe 45 for the Final Boss (cap is 50)). The party is around level 27 at the start of the final world. Since most of the EXP is from bosses, I believe balancing the end levels won't be too difficult.
Of course, the equipment in the game is not merely power-fests. Different equipment/setups for different battles will be crucial.
I want there to be customization in the game of some level, of course.
30000 Gold is a lot, but Gold will be significantly easier to come by near the end-game, mainly due to valuable treasure (which will be able to be sold for a great amount of Gold).
Are there any Items/Equipment you directly feel are a bit too OP? Do you have any examples of Items on my list that could be removed from the shop and instead be required as treasure/rewards in a dungeon?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
@LightningLord2:
That's actually quite possible since I've planned there to be three different characters who sell different stuff. One character could sell Weapons, the second one could sell Armors and Accessories, while the last one will sell the Items. These characters and their shops could be unlocked as you said, by defeating a certain amount of bosses. Since the Items are the biggest struggle for me here, I'll probably make them available last.
I still think I need to do some cleaning with the Items. Some should stay and some shouldn't. Ah, decisions...
That's something I'd like to aim for (reach close to the level cap near the end, maybe 45 for the Final Boss (cap is 50)). The party is around level 27 at the start of the final world. Since most of the EXP is from bosses, I believe balancing the end levels won't be too difficult.
Of course, the equipment in the game is not merely power-fests. Different equipment/setups for different battles will be crucial.
I want there to be customization in the game of some level, of course.
30000 Gold is a lot, but Gold will be significantly easier to come by near the end-game, mainly due to valuable treasure (which will be able to be sold for a great amount of Gold).
Are there any Items/Equipment you directly feel are a bit too OP? Do you have any examples of Items on my list that could be removed from the shop and instead be required as treasure/rewards in a dungeon?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
@LightningLord2:
That's actually quite possible since I've planned there to be three different characters who sell different stuff. One character could sell Weapons, the second one could sell Armors and Accessories, while the last one will sell the Items. These characters and their shops could be unlocked as you said, by defeating a certain amount of bosses. Since the Items are the biggest struggle for me here, I'll probably make them available last.
I still think I need to do some cleaning with the Items. Some should stay and some shouldn't. Ah, decisions...
Leapfrog
110
Personally, I feel that just limiting the stock would be best. But rather than leave the player potentially unable to buy more if they run out, you could let them buy, say, ten of each before the stock runs out. Or there could be ten initially and they have to put in some extra effort to make more available - do a sidequest for the shopkeeper so he'll let them buy from his personal stockpile?
Alternatively, you could the price increase for each item of that type the player buys, or according to how many they already have.
I've had a thought regarding the Resistance Orb. Could you make it so it only protects against the first five or so status ailments in battle, or so the resistance lowers each time it protects the user in a given battle?
Or perhaps it could block a status effect with 100% probability, but only one at a time. So if the boss tried to poison the character wearing it, they'd gain a "Blocked: Poison" status, and the item wouldn't block any more statuses until the poison was cured?
(I'm probably going to use that myself, now.)
Alternatively, you could the price increase for each item of that type the player buys, or according to how many they already have.
I've had a thought regarding the Resistance Orb. Could you make it so it only protects against the first five or so status ailments in battle, or so the resistance lowers each time it protects the user in a given battle?
Or perhaps it could block a status effect with 100% probability, but only one at a time. So if the boss tried to poison the character wearing it, they'd gain a "Blocked: Poison" status, and the item wouldn't block any more statuses until the poison was cured?
(I'm probably going to use that myself, now.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=luiishu
EXP Ring: A ring that halves the amount of MP consumption.
Assuming this is a typo, heh.
What's the actual purpose of putting an accessory into the game that increases XP gain, if you don't want the player to grind XP? In this case, it doesn't sound like the problem is that it's buyable, but rather that it exists at all.
In any case I would definitely make everything in that list harder to get. The stuff in shops should probably be more boring and generic.
The auto-life consumable item should definitely be a one-time reward from a sidequest or hidden treasure chest or something. Auto-life is the kind of thing that's ridiculously OP as a normal skill, but making it into an item that there's only one of in the entire game is actually a pretty solid way of balancing it.
In general, any item you're worried about being too powerful should definitely not be buyable. At the very least, move everything in your list here to other vectors instead of shops. Some of them should probably be nerfed too - though without playing your game it's really hard to predict just how overpowered they are.
LightningLord2
230
You could also balance the power of the Holy Cross by making it only trigger on instant death attacks. So you have a limited amount of protection in case you don't have resistant gear.
Hey, OP. You're missing the point. The point is that there is no going back. All you need to do to maintain this is to make them trapped in the last screen, teleports don't work, nothing. This armor/weapons are OP, but they have the challenge of not being able to go home to the inn and grind some more, or do any of the sidequests. They are in there, and no going back until the job is done. The weapons and equips won't be OP (other kind) because they are fighting only enemies that they have trouble with even with the armor and snazzy weapons. You only have to worry about correct balance with the monsters.
@Leapfrog:
I wanted and even started working on a limited stock for the shop, but thanks to Craze, I decided to ditch that and add a Token Merchant. The Merchant will be able to trade powerful items for tokens, which can be found through exploration and defeating bosses. I like this idea since it adds a fresh little element halfway through the game, while letting me, as a developer, have more control over the amounts of powerful items the player will receive.
Very interesting ideas with the Resistance Orb. I'm not going to change it for now, mainly since the item won't be available in the shop anymore. I'm planning to add it as a hidden treasure in a hard place to get, or after defeating a certain boss.
@LockeZ:
Yup, a very silly typo. Thankfully, I've fixed it since.
Because there'll always players who just button mashes/or aren't careful/think during battles. Instead, they usually have the choice of grinding away their problems. However, since I'm not developing the game for those types of players, I suppose the EXP Ring would only become a potential balancing issue. I'll probably just remove it right away.
Oh, it's not just any Item Shop, it's Brinks General Store, an old shop revived by warrior/adventure/combat vets, in order to support the main cast for the last stretch. I have removed most of items from the shop though.
Auto-Life is pretty useful (at least as long as they work), but not too OP. Only one character can learn the skill as an Overdrive, meaning that the player can't spam it. The items that adds the state are Holy Crosses. They too only target one character. They're definitely no common drop.
@Lightninglord2:
I never found the Holy Crosses/Auto-Life state to be too OP in the game. If I can't solve the Auto-Life state bug (sometimes it doesn't work), I might remove it or make it a gambling skill. I really want to fix it though!
@bulmabriefs144:
I already think that's the case, since the scene with the final boss triggers automatically as the player enters the map. There will be a recovery crystal before the boss to indicate that it's a good time to prepare. The player will be able to exit the dungeon in case they'd need more time to prepare.
@Everyone still reading:
I've updated the main post by striking the items that no longer will appear in the shop.
I'm debating if the Sage Ring is too OP if multiple characters will be able to wear it at the same time (shop stock is unlimited). I'm having some new struggles (concerning balancing near end-game) which I'd like to discuss, but I think it might be better suited for a new topic.
I wanted and even started working on a limited stock for the shop, but thanks to Craze, I decided to ditch that and add a Token Merchant. The Merchant will be able to trade powerful items for tokens, which can be found through exploration and defeating bosses. I like this idea since it adds a fresh little element halfway through the game, while letting me, as a developer, have more control over the amounts of powerful items the player will receive.
Very interesting ideas with the Resistance Orb. I'm not going to change it for now, mainly since the item won't be available in the shop anymore. I'm planning to add it as a hidden treasure in a hard place to get, or after defeating a certain boss.
@LockeZ:
Yup, a very silly typo. Thankfully, I've fixed it since.
Because there'll always players who just button mashes/or aren't careful/think during battles. Instead, they usually have the choice of grinding away their problems. However, since I'm not developing the game for those types of players, I suppose the EXP Ring would only become a potential balancing issue. I'll probably just remove it right away.
Oh, it's not just any Item Shop, it's Brinks General Store, an old shop revived by warrior/adventure/combat vets, in order to support the main cast for the last stretch. I have removed most of items from the shop though.
Auto-Life is pretty useful (at least as long as they work), but not too OP. Only one character can learn the skill as an Overdrive, meaning that the player can't spam it. The items that adds the state are Holy Crosses. They too only target one character. They're definitely no common drop.
@Lightninglord2:
I never found the Holy Crosses/Auto-Life state to be too OP in the game. If I can't solve the Auto-Life state bug (sometimes it doesn't work), I might remove it or make it a gambling skill. I really want to fix it though!
@bulmabriefs144:
I already think that's the case, since the scene with the final boss triggers automatically as the player enters the map. There will be a recovery crystal before the boss to indicate that it's a good time to prepare. The player will be able to exit the dungeon in case they'd need more time to prepare.
@Everyone still reading:
I've updated the main post by striking the items that no longer will appear in the shop.
I'm debating if the Sage Ring is too OP if multiple characters will be able to wear it at the same time (shop stock is unlimited). I'm having some new struggles (concerning balancing near end-game) which I'd like to discuss, but I think it might be better suited for a new topic.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
In one of my games I created an MP-halving accessory that could only be used by one character. It was the only accessory in the game that was character-specific, but I think I kept that from being confusing or awkward. Since each character had their own unique skillset, I gave it the description "Halves the MP cost of Bushido skills" to let the player know that only the character with Bushido skills could use it. If you're worried about the player buying a stack of Sage Rings to outfit their whole team, that's one possible solution.
There are a lot of games where MP costs aren't a big deal though. In Final Fantasy games, players can buy as many ethers as they want, and use them to refill their MP to full over and over without a lot of effort. This makes it so conserving MP only really serves to conserve money. In such a game, an expensive buyable endgame item that halves MP costs makes perfect sense - the player can pay 40k gold now to hopefully save more than 40k gold over the rest of the game (and also have more fun by getting to use more skills even when they're not really needed).
There are a lot of games where MP costs aren't a big deal though. In Final Fantasy games, players can buy as many ethers as they want, and use them to refill their MP to full over and over without a lot of effort. This makes it so conserving MP only really serves to conserve money. In such a game, an expensive buyable endgame item that halves MP costs makes perfect sense - the player can pay 40k gold now to hopefully save more than 40k gold over the rest of the game (and also have more fun by getting to use more skills even when they're not really needed).
I could do that, for example, but since all 4 characters are able to use Skills/Magic, I'll probably just delete the Sage Ring from the shop. Instead, I'll make it possible for any character to equip, but only add one ring to the game. That way, I'll let the player choose which character to equip it with.
I've noticed in some FF games that the MP-recovering items are very scarce early in the game, but becomes easily obtainable later on. I guess MP costs aren't that big of a deal in my game though, since MP-recovering items will be easily buy-able/obtainable from the beginning.
Thanks for your inputs. Right now, I'm having a tougher time balancing the game since the Player will have to go and hunt down 10 mandatory bosses in order to move on. Since you can fight the bosses in any order you want, I'm worrying about making the last bosses the player decides to fight too easy. I guess the best solution here is to make strategies more efficient than levels.
Thank you for your inputs, Locke. I really appreciate them as a designer and developer!
I've noticed in some FF games that the MP-recovering items are very scarce early in the game, but becomes easily obtainable later on. I guess MP costs aren't that big of a deal in my game though, since MP-recovering items will be easily buy-able/obtainable from the beginning.
Thanks for your inputs. Right now, I'm having a tougher time balancing the game since the Player will have to go and hunt down 10 mandatory bosses in order to move on. Since you can fight the bosses in any order you want, I'm worrying about making the last bosses the player decides to fight too easy. I guess the best solution here is to make strategies more efficient than levels.
Thank you for your inputs, Locke. I really appreciate them as a designer and developer!
LightningLord2
230
If you like the Sage Ring, you could also have a few other accessories with effects that are viable alternatives to it. Also, you can nerf the Sage Ring indirectly by boosting the Max MP of your characters, which makes conserving MP less important.
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