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[RMVX ACE] 'EVADE' VS. 'PARRY'. LET'S TALK.
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Feldschlacht IV
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CloseSo recently I've been thinking of Evasion vs. Parrying in games, specifically turn based ones.
Most games, and my game, have an Evasion stat and mechanic of some kind. I consider that non-negotiable. However, many games (and I'm toying with the idea) also have an additional 'Parry' or 'Deflect' stat or mechanic in addition to the Evasion stat. I guess I never really thought about it until now, but how as developers, is that properly utilized in the games we play and the games we make?
In the question of both of these stats; How can those stats be made useful in spite of each other? Is one redundant in favor of the other? How can abilities and equipment play a factor in these stats and mechanics? How can the player utilize them without becoming overpowered or feeling like they don't matter?
LET'S TALK
Most games, and my game, have an Evasion stat and mechanic of some kind. I consider that non-negotiable. However, many games (and I'm toying with the idea) also have an additional 'Parry' or 'Deflect' stat or mechanic in addition to the Evasion stat. I guess I never really thought about it until now, but how as developers, is that properly utilized in the games we play and the games we make?
In the question of both of these stats; How can those stats be made useful in spite of each other? Is one redundant in favor of the other? How can abilities and equipment play a factor in these stats and mechanics? How can the player utilize them without becoming overpowered or feeling like they don't matter?
LET'S TALK
I know in Suikoden III both evade and parry were used quite well. Parry allowed for you to have a chance to negate all damage and possibly return the attack. Evade allowed you to dodge the enemy attack altogether. Now that doesn't sound like much, but it also upped the chances of you evading spellfire, both ally and enemy - which is great when using spells that had an AoE.
I've always viewed parry as purely physical with a chance for counter or unbalancing the enemy in some way, where-as evade allows a negation of both magical and physical damage without the added benefit of attack-back/unbalance.
You could also make use of it vs long-range/short-ranged attacks. Evasion being good for long-range damage and parry being solely for melee damage. This makes sense, too.
I've always viewed parry as purely physical with a chance for counter or unbalancing the enemy in some way, where-as evade allows a negation of both magical and physical damage without the added benefit of attack-back/unbalance.
You could also make use of it vs long-range/short-ranged attacks. Evasion being good for long-range damage and parry being solely for melee damage. This makes sense, too.
When I use both Parry and Dodge it's mostly for flavor and not anything meaningful under-the-hood. You can certainly diversify their functionality, though, and Liberty offered up some examples. More recently I've chosen to abstract them into a single Evasion stat and leave the flavor in text and imagination. I pretty much always keep Block a separate thing, though, because I've always liked Block reducing damage instead of negating it.
Seems like "Parry" would be an explicit property of weapons and shields, while "Evade" a property of a person's whole person. They're both similar in effect. But the efficacy of "Parry" depends on the kind of weapon that's being used to parry. A foil would work very well, while a gun, not so well. As a counterpart to this link between weapons and the ability to parry, "Evade" sounds like it would then be dependent on the weight of a person's armor.
LightningLord2
230
I don't really like accuracy systems - I don't mind some enemies having an inherent chance to dodge physical/magical (hopefully not both) attacks or a -hit status effect, but having attacks (especially the basic attacks) that have an inherent miss chance is an easy source for frustrating players and padding the game. In most cases, having seperate parry and dodge means another layer of RNG.
If Parry and Evade are both just dodge-all-damage rolls, there's no point.
FFXIV does it well, I think. Block/Parry (same effect, one from a shield and one from a weapon) mitigate a percentage -- normally around 25-30% -- of damage you take when they succeed. That might not sound like a lot, but it's incredibly helpful when I take 30% less damage from a tank crunch like Odin's Sangetall (deals about 6500 of my 8000 HP unmitigated). While all weapons have a chance to parry, and your STR stat dictates how much is mitigated by it, shields have the advantage of having the block roll as well. Block strength is a shield stat, so better equipment = more mitigation, even if it's RNGy. (Paladins have various tools that improve and encourage blocking, however.)
Evasion is based on level, and you can't modify it with equipment. There are abilities that grant bonus evasion, however -- some classes have Featherfoot for bonus evasion, and Rogues/Ninjas have Perfect Dodge (guess what that does). You can modify enemy accuracy with Blind and a few other effects, of course (which is useful on some bosses still -- Titan can be Blinded for a chance to completely dodge his Mountain Buster tank crush!)
Basically, if they do different things, I'm fine. If they're both relabeled evasion stats, there's no point and you're being redundant/confusing.
FFXIV does it well, I think. Block/Parry (same effect, one from a shield and one from a weapon) mitigate a percentage -- normally around 25-30% -- of damage you take when they succeed. That might not sound like a lot, but it's incredibly helpful when I take 30% less damage from a tank crunch like Odin's Sangetall (deals about 6500 of my 8000 HP unmitigated). While all weapons have a chance to parry, and your STR stat dictates how much is mitigated by it, shields have the advantage of having the block roll as well. Block strength is a shield stat, so better equipment = more mitigation, even if it's RNGy. (Paladins have various tools that improve and encourage blocking, however.)
Evasion is based on level, and you can't modify it with equipment. There are abilities that grant bonus evasion, however -- some classes have Featherfoot for bonus evasion, and Rogues/Ninjas have Perfect Dodge (guess what that does). You can modify enemy accuracy with Blind and a few other effects, of course (which is useful on some bosses still -- Titan can be Blinded for a chance to completely dodge his Mountain Buster tank crush!)
Basically, if they do different things, I'm fine. If they're both relabeled evasion stats, there's no point and you're being redundant/confusing.
LightningLord2
230
The main distinction is make with Hit Rate and Evasion - the former is inherent to the user and the latter to the target.
author=Craze
... and Rogues/Ninjas have Perfect Dodge (guess what that does).
Create a shield that negates physical damage up to 20% of your max HP for 20 seconds?
e: took too long editing and craze posted so I'll move this into a new post because my incisive commentary demands it appear in the new posts section
...oh, yeah, well, i just bought heavensward last week okay
lightninglord you are normally a salient contributor to discussion so i'm concerned because i don't know why you're talking about what you are in each of your posts thus far
lightninglord you are normally a salient contributor to discussion so i'm concerned because i don't know why you're talking about what you are in each of your posts thus far
not e: to actually contribute, I hate most RPG parry/block mechanics because they're never there when you'd actually want them. I remember when Diablo 3 got its expansion and the new class' thing (the Crusader) was it did shit with a shield. To balance it the devs didn't give it the same flat mitigation amount the other melee classes got (30% of all damage iirc). To be brief, Crusaders got fucking wrecked up and down and all around because the shit that would kill you wouldn't be mitigated by a shield to begin with. Eventually they got buffs including the same 30% mitigation and they didn't die to stiff breezes anymore.
If you can't make parry/blocking work and be worth a shit just roll it into general evasion or damage reduction.
If you can't make parry/blocking work and be worth a shit just roll it into general evasion or damage reduction.
Crystalgate
694
In most RPGs I've played with both an evasion and a parry/block stat, the evasion stat is offset by an accuracy stat while parry/block is not. Sometimes parry/block also has disadvantages.
As for how to utilize them properly in a game, I think you should tackle the issue the other way around. If you design a game and you realize you need two different damage avoidance stats to accomplish what you want them to accomplish, then you make two damage avoidance stats. You're less likely to utilize two damage avoidance stats properly if you first decide you want them both and then try to figure out how.
As for how to utilize them properly in a game, I think you should tackle the issue the other way around. If you design a game and you realize you need two different damage avoidance stats to accomplish what you want them to accomplish, then you make two damage avoidance stats. You're less likely to utilize two damage avoidance stats properly if you first decide you want them both and then try to figure out how.
LightningLord2
230
I'm sorry if I usually contribute to interesting systems and show examples and whatnot, but evasion is a mechanic I can only ever tolerate in a game. When my own evasive tactics fail and my enemies constantly dodge everything, I just can't enjoy the game anymore. I usually cite examples for either a concrete example of where something is done, or if I particularly like an implementation of the system. But evasion, along with multiple forms thereof, is not only omnipresent among RPGs, I can't think of a single RPG where I liked the evasion system. Closest would be Telepath Tactics, which did it by effectively eliminating evasion entirely (it's only present on two classes and one status condition, even then it's avoidable).
author=LL
When my own evasive tactics fail and my enemies constantly dodge everything, I just can't enjoy the game anymore.
Isn't that just a failure of an evasion system taken to an unpleasant extreme? On the other end of the spectrum isn't it mega cool when your ultra fast ninja you put work in is dodging attacks that's beating up your other characters?
I'm not sure it's fair to judge a concept on a poorly executed version of it!
Evasion is going to be based on the accuracy of the weapon used against you, and your own agility (and luck!). Parrying is going to be based on whether the weapon used against you is parriable at all in the first place, and the ability of the weapon you are wielding to parry and your dexterity, agility and strength. And it might not be a full negation of damage, but a % mitigation. Blocking is like parrying, but with a shield. Parrying and blocking can lead to counterattacks. Evasion-related skills can lead to 'interrupt' attacks.
There's a lot of cool interplay possible here, but it can also quickly get bogged down and be too much of a mental overhead to enjoy.
In my experience, people tend to prefer to focus their development on skills that reliably hit, versus ones that have the most damage potential. You see this a lot in older RPGs with magic vs. physical attacks, because magic is rarely ever designed to miss or get blocked.
There's a lot of cool interplay possible here, but it can also quickly get bogged down and be too much of a mental overhead to enjoy.
In my experience, people tend to prefer to focus their development on skills that reliably hit, versus ones that have the most damage potential. You see this a lot in older RPGs with magic vs. physical attacks, because magic is rarely ever designed to miss or get blocked.
LightningLord2
230
https://sinepost.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/probability-in-games-xcom/
Do you really want your players to do math calculations on this level to make an informed decision about what skills to use?
Do you really want your players to do math calculations on this level to make an informed decision about what skills to use?
I like evasion, and it's why almost all of my physical attacks in my games are multi-hitters. It doesn't feel as bad to miss 1 out of 2 or 3 attacks as it does to miss one bigger attack. Also, multi-hits (with the right mechanics) also help make critical hits more noticeable and usable as a tool because you can rely on them on a bit more due to more rolls being made.
I will agree that it is one of those vestigial "gotta have it because... because" mechanics in many games, which is sad and pathetic and should make the devs feel bad. HOWEVER, it can be a fun and worthwhile addition if you build your game around it... like any other feature.
I think that equipping a shield giving a 40-60% chance to reduce damage taken by 50% (even if it's just physical) is a decent way to do blocking for most games. Or, keep it at a lower 25% and then have a "RAISE SHIELD" skill or w/e that ups it for a few turns or as a defensive stance vs offensive stance.
edit: lightninglord i have never had to do anything like that for any game. i'm pretty sure you're being hyperbolic. not liking rng is okay, and fine, and your choice... but thinking that games make players doing that kind of mental gymnastics (not that probability trees are that difficult, but that's besides the point) is ridiculous.
i also purposefully design my games to have the most streamlined, intentional and understandable numbers i can. it's one of my main philosophies. a good gam makker can avoid completely arbitrary-feeling numbers with proper information and solid rules. i don't think i've had any complaints about the rng in my games, which ALL have had it.
I will agree that it is one of those vestigial "gotta have it because... because" mechanics in many games, which is sad and pathetic and should make the devs feel bad. HOWEVER, it can be a fun and worthwhile addition if you build your game around it... like any other feature.
I think that equipping a shield giving a 40-60% chance to reduce damage taken by 50% (even if it's just physical) is a decent way to do blocking for most games. Or, keep it at a lower 25% and then have a "RAISE SHIELD" skill or w/e that ups it for a few turns or as a defensive stance vs offensive stance.
edit: lightninglord i have never had to do anything like that for any game. i'm pretty sure you're being hyperbolic. not liking rng is okay, and fine, and your choice... but thinking that games make players doing that kind of mental gymnastics (not that probability trees are that difficult, but that's besides the point) is ridiculous.
i also purposefully design my games to have the most streamlined, intentional and understandable numbers i can. it's one of my main philosophies. a good gam makker can avoid completely arbitrary-feeling numbers with proper information and solid rules. i don't think i've had any complaints about the rng in my games, which ALL have had it.
author=LL
Do you really want your players to do math calculations on this level to make an informed decision about what skills to use?
I've never had to do that for any game I've enjoyed, even esoteric, weird ones, so if a player wants to do that on their own time, sure, go for it. It's never required though and its disingenuous to say that it is.
I for one don't mind the concept of RNG in RPGs given their origin from tabletop games, which I enjoy. I don't see myself getting rid of it.
author=kentona
Evasion is going to be based on the accuracy of the weapon used against you, and your own agility (and luck!). Parrying is going to be based on whether the weapon used against you is parriable at all in the first place, and the ability of the weapon you are wielding to parry and your dexterity, agility and strength. And it might not be a full negation of damage, but a % mitigation. Blocking is like parrying, but with a shield. Parrying and blocking can lead to counterattacks. Evasion-related skills can lead to 'interrupt' attacks.
Yeah, that's how most Evasion/Parry things sort of work, especially in most FF games; Shields play into Evasion, and weapons have their own 'Evasion' as well, that's more or less parrying, FFVI and that little 'ding' sound effect and sword sprite you occasionally see comes to mind.
The big issue with that is that it can be redundant and unnecessarily additive, which is why I like Evasion that completely negates attacks and Blocking that reduces a certain % of damage a certain % of the time.
I mentioned Suikoden III before but neglected to mention how they handled the stats themselves.
Beware, I talk a lot below.
In one game I used parry as part of a rock/paper/scissors one-on-one duel system, while evasion allowed for, well, dodging in normal battles.
Beware, I talk a lot below.
See, that game introduced a system where your characters could choose to learn particular enhancers which you could then level up. Depending on the person they were better or worse at the enhancers, thus capping out the levels dependant on their inherent abilities. One person may be a natural speedster, so be able to get Evasion to the S rank, while another might only ever get it to the B rank.
There were some pieces of armour that could up your rank by one but they were quite rare, so overall, while you could increase a person's ability to dodge or hit, you could only increase it as far as they were inherently capable of going.
Also, each person started with a set amount of enhancers they could equip, as well as some that they could not de-equip. So ninjas almost always had evade enhancers automatically locked onto them. Depending on the person they might have one - six spare spots for optional enhancers.
So as an example, say we have Joblo who is a dwarf. He's got two locked enhancers (shield defence and heavy damage) and two spots spare. Of course, being a dwarf who is catered towards heavy defence and damage output, he'll be slow and his accuracy might not be great. Good thing he has two spare spots - you can spec into some accuracy for him so that he hits better, and maybe add in parry, so that he will have a chance to counter-attack/negate damage from melee weapons. His innate ability for both is quite low, though, so his hit percentage is going to jump from 75 to 90 (still much better) at the highest level (for him, B-Rank) and his parry chances will only ever be 20% at max. So it might be better to invest in something other than parry.
Then you have Emily (omg, <3) who is naturally fast, furious and fiery. She hits like a beast and has fairly high natural agility already, though her evasion is pretty low. Now, you can spec into evasion, sure, and turn her into a dodge-beast, but it might be better to instead spec into counter-attack, heavy damage and slash (which allows for a chance at more than one attack - with enough agility and slash levels you can be pumping out 10+ attacks a turn~<3 Emily is a fucking BEAST~<3 )
...I got a bit off-track. Basically, evade and parry are helpful in the game because they not only can be pumped up if you take the time to do so, and applied to everyone, but also do different things, especially when combined with other increases - parry, combined with counter-attack, will allow for a character who will often counter-attack attacks that get negated, while if you have evasion combined with counter-attack, you will evade and then hit the enemy for even daring to try. Add slash into the combination and you're counter attack will hit a bunch of times, with no damage taken at all. (This is obviously Yuber's secret - natural talent and a lot of free slots for skill increases. XD )
There were some pieces of armour that could up your rank by one but they were quite rare, so overall, while you could increase a person's ability to dodge or hit, you could only increase it as far as they were inherently capable of going.
Also, each person started with a set amount of enhancers they could equip, as well as some that they could not de-equip. So ninjas almost always had evade enhancers automatically locked onto them. Depending on the person they might have one - six spare spots for optional enhancers.
So as an example, say we have Joblo who is a dwarf. He's got two locked enhancers (shield defence and heavy damage) and two spots spare. Of course, being a dwarf who is catered towards heavy defence and damage output, he'll be slow and his accuracy might not be great. Good thing he has two spare spots - you can spec into some accuracy for him so that he hits better, and maybe add in parry, so that he will have a chance to counter-attack/negate damage from melee weapons. His innate ability for both is quite low, though, so his hit percentage is going to jump from 75 to 90 (still much better) at the highest level (for him, B-Rank) and his parry chances will only ever be 20% at max. So it might be better to invest in something other than parry.
Then you have Emily (omg, <3) who is naturally fast, furious and fiery. She hits like a beast and has fairly high natural agility already, though her evasion is pretty low. Now, you can spec into evasion, sure, and turn her into a dodge-beast, but it might be better to instead spec into counter-attack, heavy damage and slash (which allows for a chance at more than one attack - with enough agility and slash levels you can be pumping out 10+ attacks a turn~<3 Emily is a fucking BEAST~<3 )
...I got a bit off-track. Basically, evade and parry are helpful in the game because they not only can be pumped up if you take the time to do so, and applied to everyone, but also do different things, especially when combined with other increases - parry, combined with counter-attack, will allow for a character who will often counter-attack attacks that get negated, while if you have evasion combined with counter-attack, you will evade and then hit the enemy for even daring to try. Add slash into the combination and you're counter attack will hit a bunch of times, with no damage taken at all. (This is obviously Yuber's secret - natural talent and a lot of free slots for skill increases. XD )
In one game I used parry as part of a rock/paper/scissors one-on-one duel system, while evasion allowed for, well, dodging in normal battles.
