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GRID DUNGEONS / ALTERNATE DUNGEON EXPLORATION
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JosephSeraph
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CloseI've been wanting to make another game, but I'm having a tough time with too much on my plate. I'm buried in work, which made me think about shortcuts to development time. One of these would be to substitute the overworld / dungeon / town maps with command-based menus and gridmaps (for dungeons)
Town and overworld are kind of no surprise -- you just select where you wanna go on a map and voilà. Together with these, a first person environment like Etrian Odyssey would be pretty good... Except I just don't know how to make it work, I feel all layouts will be the same after 30 minutes of the game xD
So I thought, instead of that I could go grid dungeons. I remember seeing one Nessy game featuring grid maps (maybe) as well as Sacred Earth: Memory / Promise, but then I'm also kinda clueless on how I could make it fun.
Some ideas that could spice it up:
-"laws" like in Valkyrie Profile 2, which affect the players and enemies by increasing their stats, making skills behave differently, etc.
-traps
-treasure
-hidden nodes
-node affecting items/abilities
though I'm still not too sure how (or even if) i could go about it. Any ideas, guys?
Do you remember any games that use node-based dungeons? how'd you go about it?
edit: gremar
Town and overworld are kind of no surprise -- you just select where you wanna go on a map and voilà. Together with these, a first person environment like Etrian Odyssey would be pretty good... Except I just don't know how to make it work, I feel all layouts will be the same after 30 minutes of the game xD
So I thought, instead of that I could go grid dungeons. I remember seeing one Nessy game featuring grid maps (maybe) as well as Sacred Earth: Memory / Promise, but then I'm also kinda clueless on how I could make it fun.
Some ideas that could spice it up:
-"laws" like in Valkyrie Profile 2, which affect the players and enemies by increasing their stats, making skills behave differently, etc.
-traps
-treasure
-hidden nodes
-node affecting items/abilities
though I'm still not too sure how (or even if) i could go about it. Any ideas, guys?
Do you remember any games that use node-based dungeons? how'd you go about it?
edit: gremar
Karsu and I are making a node game. Maps are randomized, which is really easy to do with nodes. Maybe this will help spark some ideas?
First off, our list of node types.
But, more importantly, we then have specific maps the player can travel to. Each one's theme allows it to break the rules in some way, and might have the "laws" you mentioned in your OP. ("Appearance" is what slot the map can appear in, from 1-7.) These are just a few!
Montfort Village (Difficulty: *)
---
A small countryside hamlet. Nothing to see here…
Attributes: Starborne, plant, humanoid, beast, insect
Layout: Circular
Appearance: #1(Common), #2(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Portal Nodes, At least one Distortion Node
Forge of Kitholos (Difficulty: *)
---
The only sacred things are steel and fire.
Attributes: Physical, arcane, construct, robotic
Layout: Numerous Branches
Appearance: #2(Uncommon), #3(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Craft-related Nodes, More Physical Equipment, Steel Damage Enhanced
Mandala Headquarters (Difficulty: **)
---
As old as the Union itself, Mandala’s only interest is to protect Troah and its people.
Attributes: Humanoid, robotic, ringleader
Layout: Numerous Branches
Appearance: #3(Uncommon), #4(Common)
Gimmicks: Prosecution Minigame(Spawns 3-4 Evidence Nodes, activate the correct Evidence Node and go to the Prosecution Node for bonus treasure)
Progenitors’ Footprint (Difficulty: **)
---
The giants danced to the cracks of thunder and flashes of lightning as the great flood swept the land.
Attributes: Humanoid, beast, avian, physical, large
Layout: Wide Rooms, Thin Paths
Appearance: #3(Uncommon), #4(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Mining-related Nodes, Many Herbology-related Nodes, Primal Damage Enhanced
Rascia Lhox, the Subterranean Jungle(Difficulty: ***)
---
Untouched by man. Good for man.
Attributes: Physical, water, plant, beast, insect, large, primordial
Layout: Numerous Branches
Appearance: #4(Uncommon), #5(Common)
Gimmicks: Evolution (Enemies rapidly evolve into more difficult monsters), Many Herbology-related Nodes
Sanctuary #357 (Difficulty: ***)
---
An inconspicuous satellite caught within the planet’s gravitational pull, silently humming an ill-fated tune...
Attributes: Construct, robotic, starborne
Layout: Claustrophobic
Appearance: #5(Uncommon), #6(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Locked Nodes, Shrouded in Darkness (discover three switches to turn on the light)
Sedna’s Observatory (Difficulty: ****)
---
Sedna discovered the stars, then the nature of them, then the things that hide behind them...
Attributes: Starborne, undead, magical
Layout: Linear
Appearance: #6(Uncommon), #7(Common)
Gimmicks: The phases of the moon change the enemies, Many Treasure Nodes, Always contains at least one Soul Crystal Node, Many Lore Nodes, Always contains a 4* Arcane Equipment, Many Distortion Nodes
my main advice is this: you can do so much more than just using it as an excuse to not have dungeons proper. build the whole game around it!
perhaps the best example i've ever seen (sort of) is Desktop Dungeons. It might not look node-based, but I'd argue that it is. there is a metric fuckton of nuance to it and how you approach each tile.
ugh i want to replay it again (again) now
First off, our list of node types.
Node Types
--
Common - Ubiquitous
Semi-Common - Multiple will appear on most maps
Uncommon - 1-2 at most on most maps, rarely more
Rare - Usually only one at most per map, good chance of not showing up at all
Map Specific - Appears on certain maps
---
Neutral Node - Common, no effect, cleared nodes become this
Portal Node - Uncommon, at least one per stage, travels to new map
Combat Node - Common, enters combat, mini-boss and boss variants exist
Trap Node - Semi-Common, harms the party in someway
Treasure Node - Semi-Common, party gains treasure
Locked/Locked Treasure Node - Semi-Common, prevents access without key
??? Node - Semi-Common, unknown effects until entered
Crafting Node - Uncommon, Boosts effects of crafting, multiple qualities may exist
Soul Crystal Node - Rare, Boosts the effects of soul crystals
Resource Node - Semi-Common, gather resources at these nodes with various skills
Shop Node - Semi-Common, shop at these nodes
Gamble Node - Semi-Common, gamble your resources at these nodes
Minigame Node - Uncommon, game within a game, maybe?
Gimmick Node - Map Specific, effect depends on map
Quest Nodes - Uncommon, perform a task for a reward, can be character specific
Lore Nodes - Map Specific, sometimes useful, sometimes goofy, rarity depends heavily on map
Marathon Node - Rare, fight many enemies in a row
Haven Node - Uncommon, rest to restore cooldowns and swap party members
Shrine Node - Semi-Common, can pray for potential boons
Jukebox Node - Uncommon, play new music or break it for stuff/have a jukebox mimic eat you!
Sacrifice Node - Rare, Sacrifice an ally for special bonuses
Distortion Node - Rare, Appears as another kind of node
Starborn Gate Node - Rare, Special battle type to seal Gate that spawns Starborne
Booster Node - Semi-Common, give stat points, the amount depending on rarity
--
Common - Ubiquitous
Semi-Common - Multiple will appear on most maps
Uncommon - 1-2 at most on most maps, rarely more
Rare - Usually only one at most per map, good chance of not showing up at all
Map Specific - Appears on certain maps
---
Neutral Node - Common, no effect, cleared nodes become this
Portal Node - Uncommon, at least one per stage, travels to new map
Combat Node - Common, enters combat, mini-boss and boss variants exist
Trap Node - Semi-Common, harms the party in someway
Treasure Node - Semi-Common, party gains treasure
Locked/Locked Treasure Node - Semi-Common, prevents access without key
??? Node - Semi-Common, unknown effects until entered
Crafting Node - Uncommon, Boosts effects of crafting, multiple qualities may exist
Soul Crystal Node - Rare, Boosts the effects of soul crystals
Resource Node - Semi-Common, gather resources at these nodes with various skills
Shop Node - Semi-Common, shop at these nodes
Gamble Node - Semi-Common, gamble your resources at these nodes
Minigame Node - Uncommon, game within a game, maybe?
Gimmick Node - Map Specific, effect depends on map
Quest Nodes - Uncommon, perform a task for a reward, can be character specific
Lore Nodes - Map Specific, sometimes useful, sometimes goofy, rarity depends heavily on map
Marathon Node - Rare, fight many enemies in a row
Haven Node - Uncommon, rest to restore cooldowns and swap party members
Shrine Node - Semi-Common, can pray for potential boons
Jukebox Node - Uncommon, play new music or break it for stuff/have a jukebox mimic eat you!
Sacrifice Node - Rare, Sacrifice an ally for special bonuses
Distortion Node - Rare, Appears as another kind of node
Starborn Gate Node - Rare, Special battle type to seal Gate that spawns Starborne
Booster Node - Semi-Common, give stat points, the amount depending on rarity
But, more importantly, we then have specific maps the player can travel to. Each one's theme allows it to break the rules in some way, and might have the "laws" you mentioned in your OP. ("Appearance" is what slot the map can appear in, from 1-7.) These are just a few!
Montfort Village (Difficulty: *)
---
A small countryside hamlet. Nothing to see here…
Attributes: Starborne, plant, humanoid, beast, insect
Layout: Circular
Appearance: #1(Common), #2(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Portal Nodes, At least one Distortion Node
Forge of Kitholos (Difficulty: *)
---
The only sacred things are steel and fire.
Attributes: Physical, arcane, construct, robotic
Layout: Numerous Branches
Appearance: #2(Uncommon), #3(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Craft-related Nodes, More Physical Equipment, Steel Damage Enhanced
Mandala Headquarters (Difficulty: **)
---
As old as the Union itself, Mandala’s only interest is to protect Troah and its people.
Attributes: Humanoid, robotic, ringleader
Layout: Numerous Branches
Appearance: #3(Uncommon), #4(Common)
Gimmicks: Prosecution Minigame(Spawns 3-4 Evidence Nodes, activate the correct Evidence Node and go to the Prosecution Node for bonus treasure)
Progenitors’ Footprint (Difficulty: **)
---
The giants danced to the cracks of thunder and flashes of lightning as the great flood swept the land.
Attributes: Humanoid, beast, avian, physical, large
Layout: Wide Rooms, Thin Paths
Appearance: #3(Uncommon), #4(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Mining-related Nodes, Many Herbology-related Nodes, Primal Damage Enhanced
Rascia Lhox, the Subterranean Jungle(Difficulty: ***)
---
Untouched by man. Good for man.
Attributes: Physical, water, plant, beast, insect, large, primordial
Layout: Numerous Branches
Appearance: #4(Uncommon), #5(Common)
Gimmicks: Evolution (Enemies rapidly evolve into more difficult monsters), Many Herbology-related Nodes
Sanctuary #357 (Difficulty: ***)
---
An inconspicuous satellite caught within the planet’s gravitational pull, silently humming an ill-fated tune...
Attributes: Construct, robotic, starborne
Layout: Claustrophobic
Appearance: #5(Uncommon), #6(Common)
Gimmicks: Many Locked Nodes, Shrouded in Darkness (discover three switches to turn on the light)
Sedna’s Observatory (Difficulty: ****)
---
Sedna discovered the stars, then the nature of them, then the things that hide behind them...
Attributes: Starborne, undead, magical
Layout: Linear
Appearance: #6(Uncommon), #7(Common)
Gimmicks: The phases of the moon change the enemies, Many Treasure Nodes, Always contains at least one Soul Crystal Node, Many Lore Nodes, Always contains a 4* Arcane Equipment, Many Distortion Nodes
my main advice is this: you can do so much more than just using it as an excuse to not have dungeons proper. build the whole game around it!
perhaps the best example i've ever seen (sort of) is Desktop Dungeons. It might not look node-based, but I'd argue that it is. there is a metric fuckton of nuance to it and how you approach each tile.
ugh i want to replay it again (again) now
Cool! You gave me lots of fresh ideas, thank you.
I found this little thing I was working on:
(the monster grid is ridiculously stupid and i was just testing if mode 7 would collaborate with the mouse script and... no it won't)
I was thinking on making this a mouse controlled system, btw, as I find mouses work much better with grids than jumping from one node into the other! being able to remotely activate (some) nodes could be interesitng as well. So my next roadblock would be to find a way to access self switches from adjacent nodes (or just, you know, use 2932405983045982435098 switches/varbs)
but that all you've shown me is pretty interesting. I like the variety of nodes and it feels like there's plenty to do in each dungeon, I'm just not sure on how the progression itself would go. Because when we talk nodes, we kind of remove the mazing elements of a dungeon, the line from beginning to end of the node-dungeon is obvious and you either cross it straight or you don't. A sphere shaped node grid, for example, you'd be able to just cross it in a line ;v;
I mean i know it's obvious it wouldn't work that way, you can add several gimmicks or requirements to clear the end node, but still...
I found this little thing I was working on:
(the monster grid is ridiculously stupid and i was just testing if mode 7 would collaborate with the mouse script and... no it won't)
I was thinking on making this a mouse controlled system, btw, as I find mouses work much better with grids than jumping from one node into the other! being able to remotely activate (some) nodes could be interesitng as well. So my next roadblock would be to find a way to access self switches from adjacent nodes (or just, you know, use 2932405983045982435098 switches/varbs)
but that all you've shown me is pretty interesting. I like the variety of nodes and it feels like there's plenty to do in each dungeon, I'm just not sure on how the progression itself would go. Because when we talk nodes, we kind of remove the mazing elements of a dungeon, the line from beginning to end of the node-dungeon is obvious and you either cross it straight or you don't. A sphere shaped node grid, for example, you'd be able to just cross it in a line ;v;
I mean i know it's obvious it wouldn't work that way, you can add several gimmicks or requirements to clear the end node, but still...
Several months ago, I started working on a game which looks like the bottom screen in Etrian Odyssey.
the simple way out of that is the fog of war. the more complex way out is very intentional design.
for example, if there's a shorter path with more dangerous obstacles, and a longer path that threatens to take more resources but not actually be that risky, the player has a choice. the benefit of node dungeons is that they can see exactly what's ahead of them.
unless it's full of distortions and traps and mimics ;V
tl;dr: be thoughtfully evil
for example, if there's a shorter path with more dangerous obstacles, and a longer path that threatens to take more resources but not actually be that risky, the player has a choice. the benefit of node dungeons is that they can see exactly what's ahead of them.
unless it's full of distortions and traps and mimics ;V
tl;dr: be thoughtfully evil
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