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Bobkerfuffle
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CloseFirstly, I apologize if this is the wrong forum. It's always really confusing on where to post what.
Anyways, on to what I actually what I want to talk about.
You know how any game creator or hobbyist has that one weak link? Their own kryptonite? Well for many it seems to be more common things like art, story arcs, character development, or just plain laziness. But, when it comes down to me, I have my own kryptonite just like everyone else... but instead of having it being a more common one like art or story arcs, (Not that I'm great any of those either.) instead I struggle with the most basic form of writing, dialogue. Yes, the thing almost every basic human being can do.
I don't know why or how, but I never learned how to form pretty, little flowing sentences like everyone else. All the dialogue I write is choppy and unrealistic. Which is why it is my weakest link and it is also why I am posting on this forum right now instead of being productive and actually writing the dialogue for my current project Which frustrates me because I have been dying to continue working on it. But, because of my complete utter failure to do the most basic form of writing, I have been stuck on the most simplest dialogue for two days now. Yes, you heard me right, two days trying to figure basic dialogue.
If you somehow managed to read through my weird, little, rant, what is your weakest link?
And for those of you who can write those pretty little flowing sentences, care to give me some advice on how not to make my characters sound like they're from the uncanny valley?
EDIT: Thank you guys for your help! Finally got over the stupid dialogue I had been trying to figure out for the past two days.
Anyways, on to what I actually what I want to talk about.
You know how any game creator or hobbyist has that one weak link? Their own kryptonite? Well for many it seems to be more common things like art, story arcs, character development, or just plain laziness. But, when it comes down to me, I have my own kryptonite just like everyone else... but instead of having it being a more common one like art or story arcs, (Not that I'm great any of those either.) instead I struggle with the most basic form of writing, dialogue. Yes, the thing almost every basic human being can do.
I don't know why or how, but I never learned how to form pretty, little flowing sentences like everyone else. All the dialogue I write is choppy and unrealistic. Which is why it is my weakest link and it is also why I am posting on this forum right now instead of being productive and actually writing the dialogue for my current project Which frustrates me because I have been dying to continue working on it. But, because of my complete utter failure to do the most basic form of writing, I have been stuck on the most simplest dialogue for two days now. Yes, you heard me right, two days trying to figure basic dialogue.
If you somehow managed to read through my weird, little, rant, what is your weakest link?
And for those of you who can write those pretty little flowing sentences, care to give me some advice on how not to make my characters sound like they're from the uncanny valley?
EDIT: Thank you guys for your help! Finally got over the stupid dialogue I had been trying to figure out for the past two days.
Mapping is my biggest pitfall. It's really frustrating because I actually have a fantastic sense of 2D architecture: I can glance at RPG Maker style maps and tell you instantly if there are any tiles that don't make sense if you were to translate the map into a 3D model. Unfortunately, the placement of tiles for my own maps is a skill that I haven't yet developed into something I'm happy with.
I think the best advice I can give you on writing natural dialogue is to act out the scenes. If you know what your characters sound like, play out the scene and try to mimic each character's voice as accurately as you can, and imagine you're seeing the scene in a movie or something. You'll be able to tell pretty quickly what sounds natural and what sounds like it's being read from a script.
I think the best advice I can give you on writing natural dialogue is to act out the scenes. If you know what your characters sound like, play out the scene and try to mimic each character's voice as accurately as you can, and imagine you're seeing the scene in a movie or something. You'll be able to tell pretty quickly what sounds natural and what sounds like it's being read from a script.
I'd think the easiest way to improve your writing is to have someone read through it and analyze it and rigorously keep making suggestion and changing it. Then going over the changed version and again and seeing from there. Usually there are a few common trends (like keeping dialogue locked in the scene they're in which results in characters not shining through, no flow, no no real development, or characters having no opener for their topics - it's much more natural to go associatively from one topic to the next, taking up things going on around them and then progressing to connected topics and personal opinions)
And second would be looking at different ways to deal with dialogue (like lots of banter Indrah style or very short precise snippets like .. uh, charblar's Prelude)
Me no gam mak, tho, but I hear some creators go well by fully imagining their characters - and then going through mental dialogue in their head, asking them questions and seeing how they respond. (tying in to the above Trihan did!)
Compiling a sheet of general personality traits, persona (appearance/way to approach stuff - outgoing etc), interests and stuff can help keep track of things, too. And then mixing that with what's going on around the characters.
My nemesis for drawing would be doing backgrounds. I seriously need to practice that. And it's on my list *chuckle*
And second would be looking at different ways to deal with dialogue (like lots of banter Indrah style or very short precise snippets like .. uh, charblar's Prelude)
Me no gam mak, tho, but I hear some creators go well by fully imagining their characters - and then going through mental dialogue in their head, asking them questions and seeing how they respond. (tying in to the above Trihan did!)
Compiling a sheet of general personality traits, persona (appearance/way to approach stuff - outgoing etc), interests and stuff can help keep track of things, too. And then mixing that with what's going on around the characters.
My nemesis for drawing would be doing backgrounds. I seriously need to practice that. And it's on my list *chuckle*
Besides the good advice already given, I find "modern" writing easy for me because duh, I live in modern times!
All my games are either modern based or in a world where there was never an advancement in present time, like a post apocalypse landscape.
I have a harder time writing in a made up world or a fantasy world because while just plain ol regular/modern writing can work it helps to try to capture the feel in your writing of the world around your character.
You lose a lot of what you as a person know is acceptable in today times as opposed to what knights and wizard sound like in a world where monster roam just outside the city walls.
I definitely think my weakest link is writing as well, which is why none of my stories really have overarching plots or dialogues because I know my limitations and stick to a genre or world that I can get away with it in.
If you check out my games you'll see that I throw characters into a world that is a shadow of its former self and I never wrap anything up with a nice big bow.
I simply just tell 'A' story within that world instead of writing about heroes who directly influence the environment and story.
All my games are either modern based or in a world where there was never an advancement in present time, like a post apocalypse landscape.
I have a harder time writing in a made up world or a fantasy world because while just plain ol regular/modern writing can work it helps to try to capture the feel in your writing of the world around your character.
You lose a lot of what you as a person know is acceptable in today times as opposed to what knights and wizard sound like in a world where monster roam just outside the city walls.
I definitely think my weakest link is writing as well, which is why none of my stories really have overarching plots or dialogues because I know my limitations and stick to a genre or world that I can get away with it in.
If you check out my games you'll see that I throw characters into a world that is a shadow of its former self and I never wrap anything up with a nice big bow.
I simply just tell 'A' story within that world instead of writing about heroes who directly influence the environment and story.
author=Trihan
Mapping is my biggest pitfall. It's really frustrating because I actually have a fantastic sense of 2D architecture: I can glance at RPG Maker style maps and tell you instantly if there are any tiles that don't make sense if you were to translate the map into a 3D model. Unfortunately, the placement of tiles for my own maps is a skill that I haven't yet developed into something I'm happy with.
Although I haven't played around with mapping too much (currently using default maps, lame, right?), I can completely sympathize with you nit-picking little details, though. I have found myself nit-picking the story in a lot of games, even though the only real writing experience I've had was when I roleplayed when I was 14. (And I sucked at it, btw.) I always wonder why we as human always nit-pick at things even if we're not that great at them.
author=Trihan
I think the best advice I can give you on writing natural dialogue is to act out the scenes. If you know what your characters sound like, play out the scene and try to mimic each character's voice as accurately as you can, and imagine you're seeing the scene in a movie or something. You'll be able to tell pretty quickly what sounds natural and what sounds like it's being read from a script.
Hmm, maybe I should try that. (I just got to hope no one hears me through the walls.) It seems like it would make it easier to hear the dialogue read out loud, so I can tell what sounds natural and what doesn't After all, I kinda already do that when I write essays or post on forums. (Yes, I did read this post out loud before posting it.)
author=Kylaila
I'd think the easiest way to improve your writing is to have someone read through it and analyze it and rigorously keep making suggestion and changing it. Then going over the changed version and again and seeing from there. Usually there are a few common trends (like keeping dialogue locked in the scene they're in which results in characters not shining through, no flow, no no real development, or characters having no opener for their topics - it's much more natural to go associatively from one topic to the next, taking up things going on around them and then progressing to connected topics and personal opinions)
And second would be looking at different ways to deal with dialogue (like lots of banter Indrah style or very short precise snippets like .. uh, charblar's Prelude)
Me no gam mak, tho, but I hear some creators go well by fully imagining their characters - and then going through mental dialogue in their head, asking them questions and seeing how they respond. (tying in to the above Trihan did!)
Compiling a sheet of general personality traits, persona (appearance/way to approach stuff - outgoing etc), interests and stuff can help keep track of things, too. And then mixing that with what's going on around the characters.
I actually have had someone read through the dialogue before, but unfortunately, she became way too annoyed by how much I asked her to proofread it. I would ask other people close to me, but one them absolutely despises RPG Maker (says the games clutter up the Steam store or something..) and asking anyone else I know would be awkward. (Mostly because the dialogue has a ridiculous amount of stupid humor.)
I will try to actually imagine my characters out more, I used do that a lot when I I roleplayed. (I don't do it anymore, but boy, did I have some really weird characters..)
author=Kylaila
My nemesis for drawing would be doing backgrounds. I seriously need to practice that. And it's on my list *chuckle*
Haha, I'm also terrible at drawing backgrounds. (I'll learn eventually.) Then again, I'm also terrible at drawing bodies, trees, furniture, buildings, basically anything that isn't a head.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
I have an abusive relationship with mapping. It kicks my butt up and down the highway every time we meet yet I keep returning its calls. I look at examples and have a good idea of what goes where in terms of layout and design, but like Trihan, I freeze up when I try to actually place down tiles on my own maps. Ugh.
How well of a grasp do you have on your characters that you're writing? Having a clear understanding of your character's personality traits and mannerisms is 75% of the work. Take this for example:
"Gotcha. I'll get you a drink."
It's simple and gets the job done, but pretty plain and boring. This is where your character's personality come into play. Let's add a rude filter on the above line:
"Fine, fine. I'll go grab your drink for you. Not like I've got MY OWN shit to do..."
It's longer, and has much more character in it than the first line. A more passive personality would say something like:
"Y-yes, sir. I'll get that drink for you right away!"
And a more bubbly, outgoing persona would be like:
"Gotcha. One drink, coming right up!"
Just because a line isn't long or elaborate doesn't mean it isn't effective. If anything, deliberately trying to extend dialogue will make it sound more forced and unreal than a simple boring line. Find your character's voice, and you'll be able to say the same thing ten different ways without any of them sounding alike.
Anyway, like I said before, make sure you get a firm grasp on your characters personalities before writing anything. Trihan already mentioned acting out scenes. I'd take it a step further by acting out scenes that AREN'T in your game. What if two characters were just hanging out, chatting about something over a cup of coffee? What would they say? Would they devolve into arguing immediately, or would they get along despite being polar opposites in personalities? These kinds of personality assessment exercises can help you paint a clearer picture of the characters in your head, and will help you understand exactly what they would say in situations in the actual game.
How well of a grasp do you have on your characters that you're writing? Having a clear understanding of your character's personality traits and mannerisms is 75% of the work. Take this for example:
"Gotcha. I'll get you a drink."
It's simple and gets the job done, but pretty plain and boring. This is where your character's personality come into play. Let's add a rude filter on the above line:
"Fine, fine. I'll go grab your drink for you. Not like I've got MY OWN shit to do..."
It's longer, and has much more character in it than the first line. A more passive personality would say something like:
"Y-yes, sir. I'll get that drink for you right away!"
And a more bubbly, outgoing persona would be like:
"Gotcha. One drink, coming right up!"
Just because a line isn't long or elaborate doesn't mean it isn't effective. If anything, deliberately trying to extend dialogue will make it sound more forced and unreal than a simple boring line. Find your character's voice, and you'll be able to say the same thing ten different ways without any of them sounding alike.
Anyway, like I said before, make sure you get a firm grasp on your characters personalities before writing anything. Trihan already mentioned acting out scenes. I'd take it a step further by acting out scenes that AREN'T in your game. What if two characters were just hanging out, chatting about something over a cup of coffee? What would they say? Would they devolve into arguing immediately, or would they get along despite being polar opposites in personalities? These kinds of personality assessment exercises can help you paint a clearer picture of the characters in your head, and will help you understand exactly what they would say in situations in the actual game.
author=InfectionFiles
Besides the good advice already given, I find "modern" writing easy for me because duh, I live in modern times!
All my games are either modern based or in a world where there was never an advancement in present time, like a post apocalypse landscape.
I have a harder time writing in a made up world or a fantasy world because while just plain ol regular/modern writing can work it helps to try to capture the feel in your writing of the world around your character.
You lose a lot of what you as a person know is acceptable in today times as opposed to what knights and wizard sound like in a world where monster roam just outside the city walls.
I definitely think my weakest link is writing as well, which is why none of my stories really have overarching plots or dialogues because I know my limitations and stick to a genre or world that I can get away with it in.
If you check out my games you'll see that I throw characters into a world that is a shadow of its former self and I never wrap anything up with a nice big bow.
I simply just tell 'A' story within that world instead of writing about heroes who directly influence the environment and story.
I see your point, writing in a more modern time would be a lot less difficult compared to world that you have never seen before. Which sucks for me because I love creating completely different worlds from my own. (Yay, alternate dimensions.) Although, you have inspired me in a way to use my own disadvantages in a way I'll still be satisfied with. I'll definitely keep your advice in the back of my mind.
author=Red_Nova
I have an abusive relationship with mapping. It kicks my butt up and down the highway every time we meet yet I keep returning its calls. I look at examples and have a good idea of what goes where in terms of layout and design, but like Trihan, I freeze up when I try to actually place down tiles on my own maps. Ugh.
How well of a grasp do you have on your characters that you're writing? Having a clear understanding of your character's personality traits and mannerisms is 75% of the work. Take this for example:
"Gotcha. I'll get you a drink."
It's simple and gets the job done, but pretty plain and boring. This is where your character's personality come into play. Let's add a rude filter on the above line:
"Fine, fine. I'll go grab your drink for you. Not like I've got MY OWN shit to do..."
It's longer, and has much more character in it than the first line. A more passive personality would say something like:
"Y-yes, sir. I'll get that drink for you right away!"
And a more bubbly, outgoing persona would be like:
"Gotcha. One drink, coming right up!"
Just because a line isn't long or elaborate doesn't mean it isn't effective. If anything, deliberately trying to extend dialogue will make it sound more forced and unreal than a simple boring line. Find your character's voice, and you'll be able to say the same thing ten different ways without any of them sounding alike.
Anyway, like I said before, make sure you get a firm grasp on your characters personalities before writing anything. Trihan already mentioned acting out scenes. I'd take it a step further by acting out scenes that AREN'T in your game. What if two characters were just hanging out, chatting about something over a cup of coffee? What would they say? Would they devolve into arguing immediately, or would they get along despite being polar opposites in personalities? These kinds of personality assessment exercises can help you paint a clearer picture of the characters in your head, and will help you understand exactly what they would say in situations in the actual game.
Now you've got me really enthusiastic. I actually love the idea of playing out my t characters like that first, not only does it just seem kind of fun, it should help me develop my characters personalities a little more too. Just imagining the two characters trying to sit and have a cup of coffee together is making me laugh. Thanks. Now, I really need to see it acted out now.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
Mapping is my biggest problem.
Carving out an actual level space that makes sense and plays well and looks nice and everything is just so incredibly tedious and difficult and I nitpick a million things trying to make it work.
Which is why I stick to small maps whenever possible because those are a lot easier to make. ;_; It's the only reason Heresies of Discord looks and plays as well as it does, because I broke everything up into the smallest components that would work. It's also why Mayhem Maiden, with its MANY different dungeon themes and the fact each dungeon has its own unique gimmick is on hiatus right now.
Writing and game and combat design are where I shine most. I wish I could just pluck the maps I want out of my mind and just plop them in and just focus on what I'm good at.
This is good.
The way I get my dialogue right is I try to get into the character's head and act out the scene. I also literally read my dialogue out loud too. If it sounds weird when I say it, I go back and find a more natural way to say it and just sorta follow my gut and the flow of the conversation. It usually works, and it's a lot of fun.
Then again, I am HEAVILY into role playing so this comes naturally to me. I talk to my units in XCOM, I get into my character's headspaces in RPGS that I play, in stuff I write and I'm part of a goddamn Cthulu LARP to cap it off. XD
Carving out an actual level space that makes sense and plays well and looks nice and everything is just so incredibly tedious and difficult and I nitpick a million things trying to make it work.
Which is why I stick to small maps whenever possible because those are a lot easier to make. ;_; It's the only reason Heresies of Discord looks and plays as well as it does, because I broke everything up into the smallest components that would work. It's also why Mayhem Maiden, with its MANY different dungeon themes and the fact each dungeon has its own unique gimmick is on hiatus right now.
Writing and game and combat design are where I shine most. I wish I could just pluck the maps I want out of my mind and just plop them in and just focus on what I'm good at.
author=Bobkerfuffle
Now you've got me really enthusiastic. I actually love the idea of playing out my t characters like that first, not only does it just seem kind of fun, it should help me develop my characters personalities a little more too. Just imagining the two characters trying to sit and have a cup of coffee together is making me laugh. Thanks. Now, I really need to see it acted out now.
This is good.
The way I get my dialogue right is I try to get into the character's head and act out the scene. I also literally read my dialogue out loud too. If it sounds weird when I say it, I go back and find a more natural way to say it and just sorta follow my gut and the flow of the conversation. It usually works, and it's a lot of fun.
Then again, I am HEAVILY into role playing so this comes naturally to me. I talk to my units in XCOM, I get into my character's headspaces in RPGS that I play, in stuff I write and I'm part of a goddamn Cthulu LARP to cap it off. XD
author=Aegix_Drakan
Mapping is my biggest problem.
Carving out an actual level space that makes sense and plays well and looks nice and everything is just so incredibly tedious and difficult and I nitpick a million things trying to make it work.
Which is why I stick to small maps whenever possible because those are a lot easier to make. ;_; It's the only reason Heresies of Discord looks and plays as well as it does, because I broke everything up into the smallest components that would work. It's also why Mayhem Maiden, with its MANY different dungeon themes and the fact each dungeon has its own unique gimmick is on hiatus right now.
Writing and game and combat design are where I shine most. I wish I could just pluck the maps I want out of my mind and just plop them in and just focus on what I'm good at.
Ah, mapping seems to be a really common trend in this thread. I wouldn't say I'm particularly good at mapping either, I too have to make tiny little maps because I don't really know how to make large ones look good. (I also add WAY too many details.) Like when it comes to rooms and other small maps I do pretty well, but the moment you ask me to do a village or something, it ends up looking more like an empty field...
author=Aegix_Drakanauthor=Bobkerfuffle
Now you've got me really enthusiastic. I actually love the idea of playing out my t characters like that first, not only does it just seem kind of fun, it should help me develop my characters personalities a little more too. Just imagining the two characters trying to sit and have a cup of coffee together is making me laugh. Thanks. Now, I really need to see it acted out now.
This is good.
The way I get my dialogue right is I try to get into the character's head and act out the scene. I also literally read my dialogue out loud too. If it sounds weird when I say it, I go back and find a more natural way to say it and just sorta follow my gut and the flow of the conversation. It usually works, and it's a lot of fun.
Then again, I am HEAVILY into role playing so this comes naturally to me. I talk to my units in XCOM, I get into my character's headspaces in RPGS that I play, in stuff I write and I'm part of a goddamn Cthulu LARP to cap it off. XD
Hey, I read my dialogue out too! (I just think it sucks unless it gets the approval of another human being.) It also doesn't really help that the only person I can go to for constructive criticism on my dialogue, just kind off brushes it off. :/
And I think the reason why I was so enthusiastic about writing those characters ou yesterday, was because I used to role play. Like a lot. I used to spend several hours of my day just writing post, after post. I remember writing out these enormous posts too, and spending around 2-3 hours on them, it was so much fun.
Then when I did write out those characters, I ended up pretty much doing the same thing. I even gave them little back stories on why they were there and even involved playing the story from both of their perspective's. It truly did help me flesh out my characters more. (Although now I think I may have to scrap the current dialogue I have already done since it no longer fits them. Oh well.)
My weakest link is getting my ideas organized and setting achievable goals in finishing a project. It doesn't help that I often go into a project as a "make as you go" sort of thing, and not set a hard plan as far as plotline or anything.
It's something I'm trying to address only recently, to help me actually finish shit.
It's something I'm trying to address only recently, to help me actually finish shit.
LightningLord2
230
Mapping. Definitely mapping. I never feel confident in my maps being satisfactory. If I try to make a big map, it's incredibly bland, if it's small, I feel like you can just zip past it without any encounters or getting immersed into the environment.
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