HIGH-VARIANCE ROLEPLAYING SYSTEMS?
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I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth as somebody with just enough knowledge about roleplaying systems to be dangerous, but here goes. I'm curious whether there are any notably popular roleplaying systems out there which employ a high degree of variance in their rolls (or similar outcome-deciding mechanics). I'm mainly interested in "tabletop"-style systems where the players are actually acting out roles and getting most of their fun from the social interaction as opposed to being focused on the gameplay mechanics, although it doesn't have to be strictly physical.
To explain a little more what I mean by high-variance, let me contrast it with what's typical (as far as I know). Lots of roleplaying systems, if I'm not mistaken, involve rolling multiple dice at once for a lot of outcome decisions. Multiple dice yields a bell-shaped probability distribution, making middle-of-the-road outcomes much more likely and extremely low or high outcomes vanishingly rare. That can be good if you want your outcomes to be largely predictable with just an occasional WOOHOO I LUCKED OUT or OH SHOOT THAT'S REALLY BAD moment.
What if you don't want that, though? Are there any systems out there anybody could name that embrace a much flatter probability distribution, where the chance of getting a really high or really low outcome is about the same (maybe even exactly the same) as any given outcome near the middle? If so, how do they harness the resulting unpredictability to be fun for all players involved?
Tangentially, does anybody know of any systems where players are given partial knowledge of the outcome before they have to decide what action they'll attempt? Say, you roll one die to see how well you start out, then decide what you'll do based on that and roll whatever else is needed to finish determining the outcome?
To explain a little more what I mean by high-variance, let me contrast it with what's typical (as far as I know). Lots of roleplaying systems, if I'm not mistaken, involve rolling multiple dice at once for a lot of outcome decisions. Multiple dice yields a bell-shaped probability distribution, making middle-of-the-road outcomes much more likely and extremely low or high outcomes vanishingly rare. That can be good if you want your outcomes to be largely predictable with just an occasional WOOHOO I LUCKED OUT or OH SHOOT THAT'S REALLY BAD moment.
What if you don't want that, though? Are there any systems out there anybody could name that embrace a much flatter probability distribution, where the chance of getting a really high or really low outcome is about the same (maybe even exactly the same) as any given outcome near the middle? If so, how do they harness the resulting unpredictability to be fun for all players involved?
Tangentially, does anybody know of any systems where players are given partial knowledge of the outcome before they have to decide what action they'll attempt? Say, you roll one die to see how well you start out, then decide what you'll do based on that and roll whatever else is needed to finish determining the outcome?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Most systems that use a flat distribution instead of a bell curve also don't start from zero with the dice. Instead of 3d6, you roll 1d6 + 6. (The latter number is probably based on the character's stats 99% of the time.) This actually makes the result less random, though, not more, so it doesn't really address your question.
There are times when I've used extremely high variance on purpose to address other problems.
For example, the default random variance for damage in most versions of RPG Maker is 15% or 20%. If your average enemy dies in only 1 or 2 hits, however, you may want damage for all your player's attacks to randomly vary by up to as much as 70% or 80%. If your players die in only 1 or 2 hits, you may want to do the same thing for enemy attacks.
What this does is make every point of attack power and defense power and HP actually matter. Without the high randomness, you run into a problem. If attacks are relatively consistent in damage, and the player can already kill the enemy in 3 hits... how many points of attack power does it take them to get to the point where it only takes 2 hits? If it takes 4 points of attack power, then any smaller increase in attack power is worthless. However, with enough randomness, every point of attack power is meaningful because it gives players a chance to win sooner.
This can be worth considering even if your game isn't really very heavily stats-based, since once this problem pops up, the meta-game for stats will become a big deal whether you want it to or not. If you solve it by introducing extra randomness, the players can stop thinking about their stats and just pick the obvious "best" piece of equipment.
Enemies in most game systems naturally vary in power compared to each-other, though, so if you don't expect players to heal between battles, then you should strongly consider making enemy attacks fairly predictable while making player attacks more random. It doesn't feel good to anyone when an enemy gets a critical hit and kills the player in what had a 98% chance to be a safe situation. No matter what your system is, you pretty much always want every outcome other than the "expected" outcome to be better for the player than what they expect. You almost never want to have a below-average random chance to favor the enemy. It just feels shitty. The one exception is when it's a random chance to face a harder encounter - this feels better than a random chance to fare worse during the same encounter, because the player also gets an extra sense of accomplishment (and extra exp and loot) for winning. Choosing which encounter the player should face doesn't contradict the player's expectations so much as it creates their expectations.
There are times when I've used extremely high variance on purpose to address other problems.
For example, the default random variance for damage in most versions of RPG Maker is 15% or 20%. If your average enemy dies in only 1 or 2 hits, however, you may want damage for all your player's attacks to randomly vary by up to as much as 70% or 80%. If your players die in only 1 or 2 hits, you may want to do the same thing for enemy attacks.
What this does is make every point of attack power and defense power and HP actually matter. Without the high randomness, you run into a problem. If attacks are relatively consistent in damage, and the player can already kill the enemy in 3 hits... how many points of attack power does it take them to get to the point where it only takes 2 hits? If it takes 4 points of attack power, then any smaller increase in attack power is worthless. However, with enough randomness, every point of attack power is meaningful because it gives players a chance to win sooner.
This can be worth considering even if your game isn't really very heavily stats-based, since once this problem pops up, the meta-game for stats will become a big deal whether you want it to or not. If you solve it by introducing extra randomness, the players can stop thinking about their stats and just pick the obvious "best" piece of equipment.
Enemies in most game systems naturally vary in power compared to each-other, though, so if you don't expect players to heal between battles, then you should strongly consider making enemy attacks fairly predictable while making player attacks more random. It doesn't feel good to anyone when an enemy gets a critical hit and kills the player in what had a 98% chance to be a safe situation. No matter what your system is, you pretty much always want every outcome other than the "expected" outcome to be better for the player than what they expect. You almost never want to have a below-average random chance to favor the enemy. It just feels shitty. The one exception is when it's a random chance to face a harder encounter - this feels better than a random chance to fare worse during the same encounter, because the player also gets an extra sense of accomplishment (and extra exp and loot) for winning. Choosing which encounter the player should face doesn't contradict the player's expectations so much as it creates their expectations.
I'm kind of in the opposite camp as you, Aubrey, since the randomness of dice rolls as a deciding factor out of the players' control is one of the things that really irks me about many tabletop systems. If I knew a good alternative, I'd rather have a game where no dice are involved at all, and the players' success is purely based on their roleplaying and their choice of actions. I haven't come across a good way to somehow replace luck with actual player "skill" in those kinds of games, however, so at least having a fairly reliable probability distribution is something I actually value. So I can't really help you there, I'm afraid.
Regarding the question in your last paragraph, however, you might want to take a look at the game Demon Hunters: A Comedy of Terrors. This system contains an interesting mechanic called Demon Dice, that do something similar to what you described above: After a player has rolled a check for a certain action, they can choose to roll up to three additional dice to add to their result, so that they can still pass a failed check or further improve the outcome of a successful check. However, each Demon Dice they use also grants the GM a additional dice for the bad guys to use against the players at some point, and there are other risks involved as well. I thought the temptation aspect of that mechanic was pretty clever and can balance the game out quite well, too.
Regarding the question in your last paragraph, however, you might want to take a look at the game Demon Hunters: A Comedy of Terrors. This system contains an interesting mechanic called Demon Dice, that do something similar to what you described above: After a player has rolled a check for a certain action, they can choose to roll up to three additional dice to add to their result, so that they can still pass a failed check or further improve the outcome of a successful check. However, each Demon Dice they use also grants the GM a additional dice for the bad guys to use against the players at some point, and there are other risks involved as well. I thought the temptation aspect of that mechanic was pretty clever and can balance the game out quite well, too.
Tabletop games have high variability because you have a group of people who can echo off of each other and celebrate or lament/laugh off the results. A good GM can make rolling a 1 entertaining, even if it's not beneficial. That's not really the case with a computerized system. It's normally just you playing, and like LockeZ said, the game can sometimes feel like it's pulling one over on you. (I'd say "suck it up" as long as the rules of the game are transparent to the player, but whatever.)
Tabletop rules are meant to be broken and enjoyed as a group, and it just doesn't work as well on a computer because in digital RPGs, you can't break the rules. There's no overseer fudging the dice to enhance the narrative (usually). (The closest thing I've seen would be Hand of Fate, where having a GM to play against is the main conceit.)
I dunno if this is helpful at all, but at least this is why I believe tabletop rules don't translate well to digital rpgs.
Tabletop rules are meant to be broken and enjoyed as a group, and it just doesn't work as well on a computer because in digital RPGs, you can't break the rules. There's no overseer fudging the dice to enhance the narrative (usually). (The closest thing I've seen would be Hand of Fate, where having a GM to play against is the main conceit.)
I dunno if this is helpful at all, but at least this is why I believe tabletop rules don't translate well to digital rpgs.
Got some nice responses here in terms of design theory, but I was actually hoping more for names of specific existing systems. X) Guess I should've been more plain in the OP. I'm curious whether certain ideas for roleplaying systems I've come up with have been tried before, and if so how much success they've had.
To give you a better idea what I'm looking for, I'll try to give a brief description of my concept. This is a relatively simple system inspired by Atomic Sock Monkey's Prose-Descriptive Qualities system, which I created for a MUSH-based online roleplaying community I'm part of. Anytime a character takes an action, first they make a roll that ranges from 1 to their current level + 5. For example, a level 3 character would roll 1d8. (One of the nice things about computer-based roleplaying is easy access to "dice" possibilities that would take a lot of different dice to implement physically.) After seeing what that "base" roll came out as, the player decides what sort of action they'll take, mainly in terms of how much of their slowly-regenerating resource (like mana points) to spend, and then make another (usually smaller) roll based on that and add up the result. There are some other intricacies I've added in as I've experimented with this, like giving different bonuses for resources depending on whether the action is offensive or defensive, a discount mechanic for accumulating resources up to certain tiers, teamwork mechanics, etc., but that's the core of the system.
I'm going to bite my tongue on the urge to explain what I see as the pros and cons of this system, although you guys can feel free to analyze it since I know that's what we all love to do here. ;) But mainly I'd like to know if it reminds anybody of anything they've seen done before.
While we're at it, has anybody ever seen any apps on social media sites like Facebook to facilitate genuine roleplaying between friends? It seems like a natural fit for such, and I'm sure plenty of groups use social media for existing tabletop games, but I haven't heard of any apps specifically offering a site-native roleplaying experience. I've tried searching a couple times, but if you search for anything involving "roleplaying", you get flooded with the sea of MMO-lites out there. X)
To give you a better idea what I'm looking for, I'll try to give a brief description of my concept. This is a relatively simple system inspired by Atomic Sock Monkey's Prose-Descriptive Qualities system, which I created for a MUSH-based online roleplaying community I'm part of. Anytime a character takes an action, first they make a roll that ranges from 1 to their current level + 5. For example, a level 3 character would roll 1d8. (One of the nice things about computer-based roleplaying is easy access to "dice" possibilities that would take a lot of different dice to implement physically.) After seeing what that "base" roll came out as, the player decides what sort of action they'll take, mainly in terms of how much of their slowly-regenerating resource (like mana points) to spend, and then make another (usually smaller) roll based on that and add up the result. There are some other intricacies I've added in as I've experimented with this, like giving different bonuses for resources depending on whether the action is offensive or defensive, a discount mechanic for accumulating resources up to certain tiers, teamwork mechanics, etc., but that's the core of the system.
I'm going to bite my tongue on the urge to explain what I see as the pros and cons of this system, although you guys can feel free to analyze it since I know that's what we all love to do here. ;) But mainly I'd like to know if it reminds anybody of anything they've seen done before.
While we're at it, has anybody ever seen any apps on social media sites like Facebook to facilitate genuine roleplaying between friends? It seems like a natural fit for such, and I'm sure plenty of groups use social media for existing tabletop games, but I haven't heard of any apps specifically offering a site-native roleplaying experience. I've tried searching a couple times, but if you search for anything involving "roleplaying", you get flooded with the sea of MMO-lites out there. X)
@Aubrey: To answer your last question, you can have a look at Roll20. I've never used it but I watch streams and it seems quite user-friendly.
I suppose you could use the character sheets and dice rolls along with a real tabletop game.
I suppose you could use the character sheets and dice rolls along with a real tabletop game.
High randomness is great for Pen&Paper because how the game goes isn't actually written beforehand and the players / DM can react according to the results.
For video games however I found that high randomness mostly leads to frustration and worse gameplay (because harder to balance). So I strongly advise against it.
UNLESS your whole game isn't an RPG but a very short game that lives from being random as you replay it every few minutes. But even then you should only put randomness where it doesn't completely screw a player or ruins his enjoyment.
For video games however I found that high randomness mostly leads to frustration and worse gameplay (because harder to balance). So I strongly advise against it.
UNLESS your whole game isn't an RPG but a very short game that lives from being random as you replay it every few minutes. But even then you should only put randomness where it doesn't completely screw a player or ruins his enjoyment.
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